nyls

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bewildered
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nyls

Postby bewildered » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:49 am

is new york law school even worth going to if that's the best I can get into? do they get any jobs, or are they just a bunch of trustfunders who have a hobby to keep them busy? the tls website kind of gives the latter impression.

justadude55
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Re: nyls

Postby justadude55 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:51 am

bewildered wrote:is new york law school even worth going to if that's the best I can get into? do they get any jobs, or are they just a bunch of trustfunders who have a hobby to keep them busy? the tls website kind of gives the latter impression.

this site is a little skewed. i am sure people get jobs out of NYLS. if 100% of the class was unemployed, they would not keep getting business. i am sure the majority of the class is employed, albeit at mid and small level firms. a lot of smaller NY law firms with 1-3 lawyers like hiring from schools like NYLS, and would not want to hire from Columbia, NYU, Cornell and even Fordham because they know those guys are out the door if they get a 100k+ opportunity. at NLS, they don't have to worry about that.

if u have connections and good people skills, u can probably still get a big law job. marrying a girl whose father is a partner at a t-250 while in NYLS is always better than being awkward at Harvard.

this said, i personally would not go to NYLS, because i don't want to put myself in a situation where i'm not making bank and have a relatively minor influence, and possibly not getting a job at all when i studied hard solely to have other options.

according to what i read in the wall street journal, the legal market has predominately effected schools just like NYLS where a 150 LSAT once averaged a 150K salary 3 years after law school. The powerhouses, though effected, have not been nearly as effected.

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icouldbuyu
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Re: nyls

Postby icouldbuyu » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:00 pm

justadude55 wrote:
bewildered wrote:is new york law school even worth going to if that's the best I can get into? do they get any jobs, or are they just a bunch of trustfunders who have a hobby to keep them busy? the tls website kind of gives the latter impression.

this site is a little skewed. i am sure people get jobs out of NYLS. if 100% of the class was unemployed, they would not keep getting business. i am sure the majority of the class is employed, albeit at mid and small level firms. a lot of smaller NY law firms with 1-3 lawyers like hiring from schools like NYLS, and would not want to hire from Columbia, NYU, Cornell and even Fordham because they know those guys are out the door if they get a 100k+ opportunity. at NLS, they don't have to worry about that.

if u have connections and good people skills, u can probably still get a big law job. marrying a girl whose father is a partner at a t-250 while in NYLS is always better than being awkward at Harvard.

this said, i personally would not go to NYLS, because i don't want to put myself in a situation where i'm not making bank and have a relatively minor influence, and possibly not getting a job at all when i studied hard solely to have other options.

according to what i read in the wall street journal, the legal market has predominately effected schools just like NYLS where a 150 LSAT once averaged a 150K salary 3 years after law school. The powerhouses, though effected, have not been nearly as effected.


I know of several people who went to NYLS, and it seems like the only graduates who got jobs were the ones who took over their fathers' established law practices. If you get a full ride, you have nothing to lose, but if you have to pay sticker than its a huge risk.

rundoxierun
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Re: nyls

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:02 pm

justadude55 wrote:this site is a little skewed. i am sure people get jobs out of NYLS. if 100% of the class was unemployed, they would not keep getting business. i am sure the majority of the class is employed, albeit at mid and small level firms. a lot of smaller NY law firms with 1-3 lawyers like hiring from schools like NYLS, and would not want to hire from Columbia, NYU, Cornell and even Fordham because they know those guys are out the door if they get a 100k+ opportunity. at NLS, they don't have to worry about that.

if u have connections and good people skills, u can probably still get a big law job. marrying a girl whose father is a partner at a t-250 while in NYLS is always better than being awkward at Harvard.

this said, i personally would not go to NYLS, because i don't want to put myself in a situation where i'm not making bank and have a relatively minor influence, and possibly not getting a job at all when i studied hard solely to have other options.

according to what i read in the wall street journal, the legal market has predominately effected schools just like NYLS where a 150 LSAT once averaged a 150K salary 3 years after law school. The powerhouses, though effected, have not been nearly as effected.

justadude55
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Re: nyls

Postby justadude55 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:05 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
justadude55 wrote:this site is a little skewed. i am sure people get jobs out of NYLS. if 100% of the class was unemployed, they would not keep getting business. i am sure the majority of the class is employed, albeit at mid and small level firms. a lot of smaller NY law firms with 1-3 lawyers like hiring from schools like NYLS, and would not want to hire from Columbia, NYU, Cornell and even Fordham because they know those guys are out the door if they get a 100k+ opportunity. at NLS, they don't have to worry about that.

if u have connections and good people skills, u can probably still get a big law job. marrying a girl whose father is a partner at a t-250 while in NYLS is always better than being awkward at Harvard.

this said, i personally would not go to NYLS, because i don't want to put myself in a situation where i'm not making bank and have a relatively minor influence, and possibly not getting a job at all when i studied hard solely to have other options.

according to what i read in the wall street journal, the legal market has predominately effected schools just like NYLS where a 150 LSAT once averaged a 150K salary 3 years after law school. The powerhouses, though effected, have not been nearly as effected.

who are your sources, man?

don't get me wrong. your numbers might be a bit better than mine because of GPA, but i'm a fair bet to a t-14 so i'm on your team, but let's not get snobby here. actual lawyers (who i've talked to) do not want to hire columbia grads for 40k jobs when they want the people to work there for the next 5, 10, 20 years. i'm not talking about craigslist 2 week gigs. hiring people is very time consuming. you have to find someone good, train them, etc. if you're doing everything solo or with one other attorney, and have a good business, time is $.

rundoxierun
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Re: nyls

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:14 pm

justadude55 wrote:
don't get me wrong. your numbers might be a bit better than mine because of GPA, but i'm a fair bet to a t-14 so i'm on your team, but let's not get snobby here. actual lawyers (who i've talked to) do not want to hire columbia grads for 40k jobs when they want the people to work there for the next 5, 10, 20 years. i'm not talking about craigslist 2 week gigs. hiring people is very time consuming. you have to find someone good, train them, etc. if you're doing everything solo or with one other attorney, and have a good business, time is $.


An SEC fan once argued with me that people love SEC schools because of "school environment". To account for the disparity in test scores/GPAs she argued that they did worse on tests and in school their whole life because they consciously decided they wanted to go to an SEC school (LSU was the particular school). Because of this, we dont see people turning down Harvard for LSU because they dont apply to both. Obviously this is silly. LSU has a schoolwide acceptance rate of ~60% while Harvard has a schoolwide acceptance rate of ~12%. If people selected their way into schools like she argued then either more ppl selected towards Harvard(disproving her point) or they were somehow worse towards selecting harvard.

Point is, there is a big diff. between "cant" and "wont". The firms you reference arent hiring from Columbia b/c they couldnt even get a seat at Columbia OCI if they wanted. As far as those salaries go, even before the recession there was never a time when the NYLS grads were averaging 150k within three years.

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Re: nyls

Postby justadude55 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:45 pm

that LSU/HARVARD example is totally irrelevant. i'm not saying people should be going to NYLS over Columbia/NYU. that's just insane.

i'm saying if you are a tiny firm looking for an attorney to pay the base salary of an experienced legal secretary at 40-50k per year you are not hiring someone from Columbia/NYU especially if you went to a TTT. it is very hard to boss someone around who is much smarter than you are.

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Grizz
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Re: nyls

Postby Grizz » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:36 pm

Enjoy debt peonage.

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OGR3
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Re: nyls

Postby OGR3 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:41 pm

Wait, isn't New York Law School ranked like #6? Of course that's a good school!

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romothesavior
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Re: nyls

Postby romothesavior » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:01 pm

justadude55 wrote:
bewildered wrote:is new york law school even worth going to if that's the best I can get into? do they get any jobs, or are they just a bunch of trustfunders who have a hobby to keep them busy? the tls website kind of gives the latter impression.

this site is a little skewed. i am sure people get jobs out of NYLS. if 100% of the class was unemployed, they would not keep getting business. i am sure the majority of the class is employed, albeit at mid and small level firms. a lot of smaller NY law firms with 1-3 lawyers like hiring from schools like NYLS, and would not want to hire from Columbia, NYU, Cornell and even Fordham because they know those guys are out the door if they get a 100k+ opportunity.

This is horrific, absurd, reckless advice. Just awul. The worst I have seen in a while.

I would be willing to bet my law school tuition for the next two years that 2/3s of the NYLS class would give their right nut to have a temp job right now.

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Dex
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Re: nyls

Postby Dex » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:01 pm

OGR3 wrote:Wait, isn't New York Law School ranked like #6? Of course that's a good school!


:lol:

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romothesavior
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Re: nyls

Postby romothesavior » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:14 pm

justadude55 wrote:according to what i read in the wall street journal, the legal market has predominately effected schools just like NYLS where a 150 LSAT once averaged a 150K salary 3 years after law school. The powerhouses, though effected, have not been nearly as effected.


This has never, ever, ever, ever happened.

When you see a school like NYLS say "We have an average median starting salaray of 120,000!" you have to know what that means. First of all, that number is really old. Second, what they do to achieve numbers like that is to cut it down to people who went into the public sector and are gainfully employed in legal jobs. People working in public defender's offices or are living at home with their parents aren't included. Those medians represent a sliver of the class (5-10% sometimes).

Then when they want to talk about "% employed at graduation," they expand their definition of job to encompass pizza delivery drivers, shelve stockers at Target, and people who left the legal profession for something else. So schools will say "We have 90% employment at graduation and a $120,000 median starting salary," when in reality that 90% number represents fresh graduates waiting tables at Applebee's with a JD and the 120k number represents less than 10% of their new grads.

And before you start telling me how I'm just an elitist, or my perspective is skewed, please know that a large part of my impression comes from a professor of mine who used to teach at a peer school to NYLS. He would be the first to tell you that even in the legal boom, the vast majority of NYLS and similarly situated students were unemployed or underemployed and swimming in debt. NYLS students never, ever EVER averaged a 150k salary. Jesus, even T20 schools weren't even averaging that 5 years ago. I would know since I go to one... and I can tell you that a substantial percentage of our 2Ls and 3Ls are scrambling for jobs. How do you think NYLS students are doing when Vandy/WUSTL/Emory students are out of work.

You need to lose the cavalier "know-it-all" attitude when you know nothing about the legal market or the law school scam. Instead of bashing TLS and saying we don't know what's up, just keep your mouth shut and pay attention and you'll learn a thing or two from TLS. (And btw... if you think TLS is harsh, you should go check out some of the other legal and pre-law forums.)

bewildered
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Re: nyls

Postby bewildered » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:31 pm

the majority seems strongly anti-nyls. to put the question in another form, if I want to stay in nyc, it should be brooklyn law or bust? st. John's?

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icouldbuyu
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Re: nyls

Postby icouldbuyu » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:33 pm

bewildered wrote:the majority seems strongly anti-nyls. to put the question in another form, if I want to stay in nyc, it should be brooklyn law or bust? st. John's?


T13 or bust

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romothesavior
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Re: nyls

Postby romothesavior » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:34 pm

bewildered wrote:the majority seems strongly anti-nyls. to put the question in another form, if I want to stay in nyc, it should be brooklyn law or bust? st. John's?

Brooklyn, St. John's, and NYLS are virtually the same for employment purposes. Unless you have a full ride, I would not even consider it. It would be a disastrous mistake.

rundoxierun
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Re: nyls

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:38 pm

bewildered wrote:the majority seems strongly anti-nyls. to put the question in another form, if I want to stay in nyc, it should be brooklyn law or bust? st. John's?


People are going to kill me for saying this.. but Brooklyn is definitely a decent choice at the right price. If you could get, say, a scholarship worth 30k+/yr. then I wouldnt consider you insane for taking that risk. Of course theres the problem of scholly stipulations but Im not 100% sure how those are at BLS.

mst
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Re: nyls

Postby mst » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:42 pm

It really depends upon the debtload and your personal feelings on risk in terms of both time and tuition and opportunities given up. Personally, I wouldn't go to law school in NYC outside of Fordham. And that's with a huge-ass scholarship. Like, seriously huge. The only schools worth attending at or near sticker from a value perspective (at least for me) in NYC are NYU & Columbia (and even that is a question mark right now).

bewildered
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Re: nyls

Postby bewildered » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:54 pm

jeez, this has been depressing! do you guys have a forum for careers to think about for guys who might otherwise have gone to law school? and what does T13 mean?
Last edited by bewildered on Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: nyls

Postby romothesavior » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:55 pm

bewildered wrote:jeez, this has been depressing! do you guys have a forum for careers to think about for guys who might otherwise have gone to law school?

A few questions:

Why do you want to go to law school?
What are you interested in besides law?
Why are schools like Brooklyn and NYLS even on your radar? What is holding you back from better schools?

mst
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Re: nyls

Postby mst » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:57 pm

What's your LSAT history (scores, amount of prep put in, courses taken, amount of practice tests taken, etc.)? Why do you want to be a law student? What do you hope to gain? What kind of lawyer would you want to be? What kind of GPA do you have? What kind of "soft factors" do you have? How much work experience do you have?

Answer these questions and I'm sure we help point you in a direction that will give you the best shot of attending a law school that fits your needs.

Edit: You probably meant t14. T13 is more of a snub on a certain t14 that people think is not worth being a t14. T14 is a group of 14 schools who have (almost technically) never been out of the top 14 rankings. They have national prestige and placement (relatively speaking). Although there is a big difference in placement opportunities and prestige, etc. between the individual t14 schools too. Many people will argue no school outside of the t14 is worth sticker, although this isn't entirely true (especially for state schools w/ low tuition rates that have good placement or for people who have guaranteed high-paying jobs after graduation).

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Dex
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Re: nyls

Postby Dex » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:02 pm

bewildered wrote:jeez, this has been depressing! do you guys have a forum for careers to think about for guys who might otherwise have gone to law school? and what does T13 mean?


T13 = Top 13 schools. Typically T14 (Top 14 schools) are recognized as the top tier of tier 1 - which is further broken down on this site in brackets (HYS - CCN - MVPB - DNCG).

bewildered
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Re: nyls

Postby bewildered » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:04 pm

1)I was a philo major in undergrad, I've always been good at argumentation and using language in a precise manner. It's just something I thought I might be good at, and, quite frankly, there aren't too many things in that category.

2) I have a little experience teaching English, but left because of the low pay

3) I would like to stay in NYC. 158/3.7 shaky letters of rec

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Rand M.
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Re: nyls

Postby Rand M. » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:09 pm

bewildered wrote:1)I was a philo major in undergrad, I've always been good at argumentation and using language in a precise manner. It's just something I thought I might be good at, and, quite frankly, there aren't too many things in that category.

2) I have a little experience teaching English, but left because of the low pay

3) I would like to stay in NYC. 158/3.7 shaky letters of rec


Retake. That GPA is good, teaching experience will only help. Retake.

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romothesavior
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Re: nyls

Postby romothesavior » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:13 pm

bewildered wrote:1)I was a philo major in undergrad, I've always been good at argumentation and using language in a precise manner. It's just something I thought I might be good at, and, quite frankly, there aren't too many things in that category.

2) I have a little experience teaching English, but left because of the low pay

3) I would like to stay in NYC. 158/3.7 shaky letters of rec


Okay, well your GPA is pretty respectable, so the key is the LSAT. How much did you study? What were your study habits? Real studying for the LSAT requires months of rigorous preparation. If you didn't do that, then you need to get serious about the LSAT and retake. If you honestly did study as hard you possibly could (I'm talking about doing the Powerscore Bibles, doing at least a dozen practice tests, and spending multiple hours a week studying for 2-3 months), then you may want to try to find something else to do instead of law. Finally, if you simply aren't willing to study hard for the LSAT, then you can't possibly be serious about law school and you should do something instead of law. The bottom line is that the LSAT is the most important piece of your application and that score can greatly affect your career prospects.

Why are your letters of rec shaky?

Also, consider looking outside of NYC. If you can improve a few points on your LSAT, you could get a full ride to some T3s. I am not totally against T3 schools if you are able to go for free.

bewildered
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Re: nyls

Postby bewildered » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:40 pm

retaking would mean putting it off another year. I'm already older than just about any 1L. I really think it's now or never.

I just did some googling of people I know in the field, and I'm starting to question the board's credibility, or at least their understanding of my situation: The 1 guy I know who went to NYLS now owns his own firm in LA. Another friend went to Rutgers and is now an associate prof at a T5 school. And I already mentioned a friend that went to T4 school and is making 100K in the south, where that's pretty good (and she's still young)

I'm not looking to be a superstar, just a decent living




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