UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

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chrisbru
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UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby chrisbru » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:56 pm

This is a hypothetical question, as my admission decisions and scholarship information have not come in yet. Based on my research, however, I've come to the following scenarios:

U Minnesota - Sticker price
William Mitchell - Half scholarship
St. Thomas - Full Ride

Anyone care to toss some pros and cons my way based on these? I know that UM and WM place much better in the Twin Cities, but it also appears that St Thomas is kind of "up and coming," or at least trying to be. What would you all do if you were presented with this situation?

In case you want my numbers for more help, I have 2.94/171, 1.5 years WE, legitimate GPA addendum explaining a bad year which would raise my GPA to a 3.3 if that year was thrown out.

Thanks for the help TLS!

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AreJay711
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:00 pm

St. Thomas is in Florida right? I think you should stay away from that if you want to stay in the area.

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plenipotentiary
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby plenipotentiary » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:02 pm

Why didn't you ED to Northwestern?

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paratactical
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby paratactical » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:02 pm

chrisbru wrote:This is a hypothetical question, as my admission decisions and scholarship information have not come in yet.


:?

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chrisbru
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby chrisbru » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:04 pm

University of St. Thomas, in Minnesota.

Thanks for the "ED to Northwestern" advice, but I didn't think I had a chance to get in and didn't want to waste $100 for a rejection letter. Plus, I'd much rather be in Minneapolis than Chicago.

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Tanicius
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby Tanicius » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:08 pm

St. Thomas is upcoming, yes, but it has an unestablished alumni base is the problem.

If you're a resident in MN, going to the UMN at full sticker will essentially be equal to attending anywhere else at half tuition. With your numbers ideally this question will be between WM and UMN. For work in Minnesota you want either good academic credentials (UMN) or that sweet alumni network from WM.

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AreJay711
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:09 pm

chrisbru wrote:University of St. Thomas, in Minnesota.

Thanks for the "ED to Northwestern" advice, but I didn't think I had a chance to get in and didn't want to waste $100 for a rejection letter. Plus, I'd much rather be in Minneapolis than Chicago.

My bad. I thought there might have been one in Minnesota but Google brought up the one in Florida

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chrisbru
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby chrisbru » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:11 pm

Well, my issue is that I'm not a Minnesota resident. I grew up in Iowa, and am currently a Washington resident working in Seattle.

So, what I gather from what you're saying is that William Mitchell would be the best choice?

AreJay711 - No problem, I still sometimes click on the wrong one when I Google it :-)

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Tanicius
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby Tanicius » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:50 pm

chrisbru wrote:Well, my issue is that I'm not a Minnesota resident. I grew up in Iowa, and am currently a Washington resident working in Seattle.

So, what I gather from what you're saying is that William Mitchell would be the best choice?

AreJay711 - No problem, I still sometimes click on the wrong one when I Google it :-)


Well, I would be hesitant to say that because it depends on your career aspirations. What kind of work do you want to be doing?

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paratactical
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby paratactical » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:52 pm

Tanicius wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Well, my issue is that I'm not a Minnesota resident. I grew up in Iowa, and am currently a Washington resident working in Seattle.

So, what I gather from what you're saying is that William Mitchell would be the best choice?

AreJay711 - No problem, I still sometimes click on the wrong one when I Google it :-)


Well, I would be hesitant to say that because it depends on your career aspirations. What kind of work do you want to be doing?

And what's the Minnesota obsession? Have you ever lived there? Do you have any ties to the area? Given how important regional ties are in securing employment after law school, how do you plan to get a job?

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chrisbru
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby chrisbru » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:49 pm

I plan to get a job by interviewing. My ties will be my girlfriend (should be fiance by then) is from there.

How important are ties besides going to school in Minnesota, really? Because other than that, my ONLY ties are to Iowa... I grew up in Des Moines and went to UG 30 minutes north of there. Are you telling me that ties are so important that it's not worth going anywhere except Iowa?

HeavenWood
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:50 pm

chrisbru wrote:Well, my issue is that I'm not a Minnesota resident. I grew up in Iowa, and am currently a Washington resident working in Seattle.

So, what I gather from what you're saying is that William Mitchell would be the best choice?

AreJay711 - No problem, I still sometimes click on the wrong one when I Google it :-)


Glancing at LSN, I doubt you'll be paying sticker at UM.

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chrisbru
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby chrisbru » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:52 pm

Tanicius wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Well, my issue is that I'm not a Minnesota resident. I grew up in Iowa, and am currently a Washington resident working in Seattle.

So, what I gather from what you're saying is that William Mitchell would be the best choice?

AreJay711 - No problem, I still sometimes click on the wrong one when I Google it :-)


Well, I would be hesitant to say that because it depends on your career aspirations. What kind of work do you want to be doing?



I'm not 100% set on a specific kind of work. I'm leaning towards Intellectual property or corporate law, but I'm not gunning for biglaw or anything. I'd like to be in a job that I enjoy more than the role I am currently in, and law is the direction I plan to go. I've wanted to go to law school since I was in middle school.


HeavenWood --> I checked out LSN, and I didn't really see any good evidence one way or another about scholarships to UM. I hope you're right though, that would make this decision much easier :-)

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Tanicius
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby Tanicius » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:22 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Well, my issue is that I'm not a Minnesota resident. I grew up in Iowa, and am currently a Washington resident working in Seattle.

So, what I gather from what you're saying is that William Mitchell would be the best choice?

AreJay711 - No problem, I still sometimes click on the wrong one when I Google it :-)


Well, I would be hesitant to say that because it depends on your career aspirations. What kind of work do you want to be doing?



I'm not 100% set on a specific kind of work. I'm leaning towards Intellectual property or corporate law, but I'm not gunning for biglaw or anything. I'd like to be in a job that I enjoy more than the role I am currently in, and law is the direction I plan to go. I've wanted to go to law school since I was in middle school.


HeavenWood --> I checked out LSN, and I didn't really see any good evidence one way or another about scholarships to UM. I hope you're right though, that would make this decision much easier :-)



If you're more into the corporate side of things, UMN will give you a significant leg up on WM.

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chrisbru
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby chrisbru » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:03 pm

Tanicius wrote:
If you're more into the corporate side of things, UMN will give you a significant leg up on WM.



Tanicius --> Why is this the case? Alumni connections? Better coursework for a corporate law gig?

What kinds of careers would a WM graduate find?

Kaves
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby Kaves » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:24 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Well, my issue is that I'm not a Minnesota resident. I grew up in Iowa, and am currently a Washington resident working in Seattle.

So, what I gather from what you're saying is that William Mitchell would be the best choice?

AreJay711 - No problem, I still sometimes click on the wrong one when I Google it :-)


Well, I would be hesitant to say that because it depends on your career aspirations. What kind of work do you want to be doing?



I'm not 100% set on a specific kind of work. I'm leaning towards Intellectual property or corporate law, but I'm not gunning for biglaw or anything. I'd like to be in a job that I enjoy more than the role I am currently in, and law is the direction I plan to go. I've wanted to go to law school since I was in middle school.


HeavenWood --> I checked out LSN, and I didn't really see any good evidence one way or another about scholarships to UM. I hope you're right though, that would make this decision much easier :-)


I think its safe to say also with 90% certanty that you will be getting much better then 50% at WM. Either 95% or 100% is almost assured.

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chrisbru
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby chrisbru » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:33 pm

Kaves wrote:
I think its safe to say also with 90% certanty that you will be getting much better then 50% at WM. Either 95% or 100% is almost assured.



Wow, I hope you are correct Kaves! That would make me a very happy guy with an easy decision to make.

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ThomasMN
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby ThomasMN » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:43 pm

You should be good for some money from WM, however I caution you here on one thing. I have a good friend who is a 2L at W&M and in the top 10% of his class there. He had a 166 LSAT ( well above their numbers ), but a GPA around yours and he did not get a dime. Not to "freak" you out, but some of the schools have odd GPA cutoffs for their scholarships. I know that the U of M tends to love splitters like yourself and I would not doubt if they shake some money your way. To top things off after you've been here ( I'm a Minnesotan myself ) you should be able to get residency at the U, which will save you quite a bit.

As far as going to UST law, DON'T!!!! I am currently at the UG at St.Thomas and can tell you that even at UST most of the decent or good grads that go to law school choose W&M or the U. I have run into a lot of attorneys from UST law that are unemployed or struggling in the current legal market. However, UST law does have an amazingly nice new building and great professors.

Myself, I'm probably going to end up at the University of Iowa if I don't kick up my LSAT ( I have a 165). Mainly as I'm running the bottom edge of getting into the U and Iowa might actually give me some money.

As much as this is obviously outside the scope of this thread, does anyone know what the job prospects are for Iowa Law and Wisconsin Law grads are in the Twin Cities?

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chrisbru
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby chrisbru » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:03 pm

ThomasMN wrote:You should be good for some money from WM, however I caution you here on one thing. I have a good friend who is a 2L at W&M and in the top 10% of his class there. He had a 166 LSAT ( well above their numbers ), but a GPA around yours and he did not get a dime. Not to "freak" you out, but some of the schools have odd GPA cutoffs for their scholarships. I know that the U of M tends to love splitters like yourself and I would not doubt if they shake some money your way. To top things off after you've been here ( I'm a Minnesotan myself ) you should be able to get residency at the U, which will save you quite a bit.

As far as going to UST law, DON'T!!!! I am currently at the UG at St.Thomas and can tell you that even at UST most of the decent or good grads that go to law school choose W&M or the U. I have run into a lot of attorneys from UST law that are unemployed or struggling in the current legal market. However, UST law does have an amazingly nice new building and great professors.

Myself, I'm probably going to end up at the University of Iowa if I don't kick up my LSAT ( I have a 165). Mainly as I'm running the bottom edge of getting into the U and Iowa might actually give me some money.

As much as this is obviously outside the scope of this thread, does anyone know what the job prospects are for Iowa Law and Wisconsin Law grads are in the Twin Cities?



Thanks for the input, Thomas. If I can get some decent money at the U of M, I'll definitely go there... It's my number one choice. I guess I keep going back and forth between Iowa as a second choice or WM. I'd also be curious to know what the Twin Cities prospects are for Iowa Law grads, as I can still grab residency there (and hopefully some $$).

As for your comment on residency in Minnesota... Is it really possible? From what I've seen online, I kind of figured that it was impossible to gain residency if you moved to MN for work purposes only.

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Tanicius
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby Tanicius » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:39 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
If you're more into the corporate side of things, UMN will give you a significant leg up on WM.



Tanicius --> Why is this the case? Alumni connections? Better coursework for a corporate law gig?

What kinds of careers would a WM graduate find?


It really has nothing to do with the quality of the education but the credentials (read: ranking) of the institution when you're talking about corporate tracks. These are NLJ250 firms you're talking about, and they want the name of the school. Pre-recession, WM probably outdid the typical 5-10% of T2-T3 classes that would actually get biglaw, but now that the recession's hit in full WM's probably in quite a bit of trouble.

This becomes more complex of course because UMN has probably been hit hard by the recession along with the rest of the T-20's. Where the UMN degree would be helpful is breaking into Minneapolis-based firms.

I would try to find people who have experience job hunting for IP and biglaw in the Twin Cities and see what they think about this.

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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby Informative » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:26 pm

Take the full ride if you can. WM was in the 4th tier a year ago and has been bouncing around for the past five years. Your employment prospects are going to be similar from either St. T or WM. Not having any debt at graduation is the smartest decision you can make going to one of these schools (and I would probably argue it would be the smartest thing to do regardless of the schools you mentioned. No one should take on debt in this economy).

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chrisbru
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby chrisbru » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:48 pm

Informative wrote:Take the full ride if you can. WM was in the 4th tier a year ago and has been bouncing around for the past five years. Your employment prospects are going to be similar from either St. T or WM. Not having any debt at graduation is the smartest decision you can make going to one of these schools (and I would probably argue it would be the smartest thing to do regardless of the schools you mentioned. No one should take on debt in this economy).


Thanks for the input. That's definitely a good point... COL debt will be the same regardless (for the most part, even the non-MN schools I applied to are pretty comparative). It would definitely be nice to have $45-$60k in debt instead of $90-$140k.

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ThomasMN
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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby ThomasMN » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:49 pm

When was WM in the 4th tier? I can tell you right now from all the attorneys that I personally know as well as the law students I know from both schools that the prospects out of WM are MUCH better than St. Thomas. Just look at employment rate ( especially when you consider that the graduating class is much bigger at WM and yet they still manage to get a larger percent hired than a smaller graduating class at St. Thomas Law)

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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby Informative » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:38 pm

William Mitchell was in the 4th tier last year, and maybe the year before. This is the first time they have been ranked higher than St. T in a long time.

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Re: UM vs St Thomas vs WM ---> Cost factors

Postby Kaves » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:15 pm

Informative wrote:William Mitchell was in the 4th tier last year, and maybe the year before. This is the first time they have been ranked higher than St. T in a long time.


You are mistaken sir.




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