Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

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FunkyJD
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby FunkyJD » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:41 am

fear&loathingintexas wrote: Baylor has Austin.

QF WTF.

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kalvano
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby kalvano » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:15 am

fear&loathingintexas wrote: Baylor has Austin.



Communists, Godless heathens, and hippies have Austin, not lawyers.

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ggocat
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby ggocat » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:04 am

+1 to the last three posters.

And this data is a few years old, but note that Baylor places like 1% more of it class into NLJ 250 firms compared to TTU. http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

I still think both TTU and MCL are decent options if you have in-state tuition and can't increase your LSAT. You're facing an uphill battle, but you'll be in a better position than many other law school graduates with higher debt loads.

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FunkyJD
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby FunkyJD » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:38 am

To be fair, I live in DFW, and you can get work here as a TTU Law grad. It obviously won't be BigLaw, but you probably knew that going in. If you can get TTU paid for and understand you won't be making $140k anytime soon unless you're at the very top of your class ... look, you could have a worse life than being a middle-class lawyer in Dallas.

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deadpanic
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby deadpanic » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:11 am

fear&loathingintexas wrote:The fact that both of these are at sticker makes it all even less appealing. Whatever you do, PLEASE DO NOT GO TO EITHER OF THESE SCHOOLS AT STICKER.


you know ole miss is 10k/year for residents right? for out of staters you get residency for 2L and 3L.

although i do like your username:
Raoul Duke: Last name? I'd rather not say. My brother's in politics.

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General Tso
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby General Tso » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:56 am

Ole Miss is a much better law school than TTU. Oxford is a fun town, and placement in MS is probably preferable to placement in west TX. I wouldn't overstate the fact that Ole Miss is one of 2 law schools (and is the best) in MS. The fact that there are no schools there and no competition just says that there aren't that many jobs there.

OP I can tell you exactly what the job prospects are like out of Ole Miss. Top 10% will have decent options at ~75k-market in Houston, Memphis, Dallas, Birmingham, Jackson, maybe a few in Atlanta (although that market is total crap right now). The rest will be working at smaller firms and government jobs around MS in the 40-55k range. That is pretty good money for MS, you can live a very comfortable lifestyle on that kind of salary, especially if you are married or have a significant other who also works.

My advice to you is to do it on a very low amount of debt. The general advice is not to borrow more than you expect to make in your first year, and while that is a hard goal to meet in law school, I think that rule carries more weight the farther down the food chain you go. I think you should attend Ole Miss if you can keep your debt at around ~40k.

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FunkyJD
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby FunkyJD » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:51 pm

I have friends with Texas ties who went to Ole Miss. I wish they were reading this thread.

General Tso wrote:Ole Miss is a much better law school than TTU. Oxford is a fun town, and placement in MS is probably preferable to placement in west TX.

FunkyJD wrote:To be fair, I live in DFW, and you can get work here as a TTU Law grad. It obviously very likely won't be BigLaw, but you probably knew that going in.

Small (n) size, but FWIW, visit these following links, select "Texas Tech" and "Mississippi," and select Dallas and Houston offices, and tell me what you find. Count up the aggregate and compare.

Haynes & Boone
Cantey Hanger (LinkRemoved) (type Mississippi and then Texas Tech where it says "Lawyer Search")
Fulbright & Jaworski
Vinson & Elkins
Baker Botts
Andrews Kurth
Bracewell & Giuliani (LinkRemoved)

General Tso wrote:OP I can tell you exactly what the job prospects are like out of Ole Miss. Top 10% will have decent options at ~75k-market in Houston, Memphis, Dallas, Birmingham, Jackson, maybe a few in Atlanta (although that market is total crap right now).

Even if this were true, you'd be better off going to Tech if you wanted to practice in Texas, unless you had very strong Texas ties.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:10 pm

The Mississippi market isn't as bad as many people are making it out to be. The market rate is about $105,000 (of course, any given person is not going to get this statistically). There are about 20 firms worth applying to in terms of TLS (high pay, large number of attorneys, and relatively low billing rates compared to Texas). Then there are smaller employers and all of that.

Honestly, I would rather take my chances at Ole Miss than Texas Tech. Ole Miss is relevant in MS. Tech is an afterthought in TX. Would I try to take a degree from either out of state without ties to wherever I'm taking it? Hell no.

Many mid-size firms, for some reason, have either removed themselves from NALP or have never been on NALP. While NALP is a good way to determine salary and billable requirements, you need to use business journal law firm lists to get access to the largest 20-50 firms in each market (yes it costs money but it's worth it).

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General Tso
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby General Tso » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:27 pm

FunkyJD wrote:you'd be better off going to Tech if you wanted to practice in Texas, unless you had very strong Texas ties.


I would not disagree with this. I was under the impression that OP had no regional preference, but perhaps I misread. Also you can do that kind of selective firm search for just about any law school (search firm websites, find exceptional cases, and pretend those results are typical). I bet I can find 6 big Detroit firms with multiple Cooley grads.

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FunkyJD
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby FunkyJD » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:31 pm

General Tso wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:you'd be better off going to Tech if you wanted to practice in Texas, unless you had very strong Texas ties.

I would not disagree with this. I was under the impression that OP had no regional preference, but perhaps I misread. Also you can do that kind of selective firm search for just about any law school (search firm websites, find exceptional cases, and pretend those results are typical). I bet I can find 6 big Detroit firms with multiple Cooley grads.

You might, and as I said, my sampling was a very small (n). But it does tend to support the idea I mentioned in my earlier statement. If you find evidence to the contrary from other firms in this region, I will gladly accept it.

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General Tso
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby General Tso » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:39 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
General Tso wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:you'd be better off going to Tech if you wanted to practice in Texas, unless you had very strong Texas ties.

I would not disagree with this. I was under the impression that OP had no regional preference, but perhaps I misread. Also you can do that kind of selective firm search for just about any law school (search firm websites, find exceptional cases, and pretend those results are typical). I bet I can find 6 big Detroit firms with multiple Cooley grads.

You might, and as I said, my sampling was a very small (n). But it does tend to support the idea I mentioned in my earlier statement. If you find evidence to the contrary from other firms in this region, I will gladly accept it.


I'm not going to do a selective firm search because it is a waste of time. I checked the one you were so proud of...Cantey Hanger...when I typed Texas Tech, for sure about 12 people showed up. But when I clicked their profiles only half of them had went to TTU for law school, the rest just for undergrad.

And all of the TTU people I saw were summa cum laude (top 5% of their class?). We are splitting hairs here...unless you are top 5% at either of these schools none of this stuff we are talking about even matters. Even if you think you are going to be at the top, Ole Miss is still the better choice --> http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

Old stats but Ole Miss used to place 8% of the class in NLJ250. TTU didn't even make it on the chart.

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FunkyJD
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby FunkyJD » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:52 pm

No offense, but that chart is worthless on several levels.

Also, I assumed in your perusing those sites that you'd search for Texas Tech and Ole Miss JDs, no?

My claim is very narrow. It was and is, if you go to TTU, you can possibly enjoy a decent middle class existence as a lawyer in DFW. Further claim is that I strongly suspect TTU places better in a Houston than Ole Miss JD would.

rundoxierun
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:The Mississippi market isn't as bad as many people are making it out to be. The market rate is about $105,000 (of course, any given person is not going to get this statistically). There are about 20 firms worth applying to in terms of TLS (high pay, large number of attorneys, and relatively low billing rates compared to Texas). Then there are smaller employers and all of that.

Honestly, I would rather take my chances at Ole Miss than Texas Tech. Ole Miss is relevant in MS. Tech is an afterthought in TX. Would I try to take a degree from either out of state without ties to wherever I'm taking it? Hell no.

Many mid-size firms, for some reason, have either removed themselves from NALP or have never been on NALP. While NALP is a good way to determine salary and billable requirements, you need to use business journal law firm lists to get access to the largest 20-50 firms in each market (yes it costs money but it's worth it).


Where on earth did you get that from?? Not even the top firm in Memphis(Baker Donelson) typically pays a starting salary that high.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:18 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:The Mississippi market isn't as bad as many people are making it out to be. The market rate is about $105,000 (of course, any given person is not going to get this statistically). There are about 20 firms worth applying to in terms of TLS (high pay, large number of attorneys, and relatively low billing rates compared to Texas). Then there are smaller employers and all of that.

Honestly, I would rather take my chances at Ole Miss than Texas Tech. Ole Miss is relevant in MS. Tech is an afterthought in TX. Would I try to take a degree from either out of state without ties to wherever I'm taking it? Hell no.

Many mid-size firms, for some reason, have either removed themselves from NALP or have never been on NALP. While NALP is a good way to determine salary and billable requirements, you need to use business journal law firm lists to get access to the largest 20-50 firms in each market (yes it costs money but it's worth it).


Where on earth did you get that from?? Not even the top firm in Memphis(Baker Donelson) typically pays a starting salary that high.


Nalp says that Baker pays in the $92-120,000 for first years, and I personally know a few people who will be starting at Baker next year, and earning more than 100k.

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TJISMYHERO
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby TJISMYHERO » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:48 pm

kalvano wrote:
ggocat wrote:
kalvano wrote:How many law schools are in Texas and how many are in Mississippi?

There are a lot in Texas, and Tech is right near the bottom. I don't know about Mississippi, but I'm guessing not as many.

Less competition.

Assuming that the increased number opportunities in Texas does not make up for the larger output of lawyers. I mean, the El Paso metro area is larger than Jackson metro area. And Lubbock is about half the size of Jackson.

Lawyer density is similar (9.5/10,000 people in TX, 7.6/10,000 in MS, in 2000). http://www.averyindex.com/lawyers_per_capita.php

And that doesn't take into account the quality of opportunities. I can hear it now: "Jackson to $85K!"



What the fuck are you talking about? That looks suspiciously like math.

Texas - 9 law schools. Texas Tech ranks near the bottom. Serves no major market other than Buttfuck, Nowhere. You're competing with a lot of other people, and coming from a school that ranks near the bottom in job prospects.

Mississippi - 2 law schools. I'm assuming Ole Miss has great name recognition throughout the state. Probably good if you want to stay in Mississippi.



Therefore, in Texas, you can either compete with 8 other schools coming from one of the lowest ranked, or you can compete with one other school in Mississippi and go the one with better job opportunities.


I would argue that Tech is 5th of 9 schools in Texas. St. Mary's, Wesleyan, Southern Texas, and South Texas are all worse.
Last edited by TJISMYHERO on Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rundoxierun
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:16 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Nalp says that Baker pays in the $92-120,000 for first years, and I personally know a few people who will be starting at Baker next year, and earning more than 100k.


Ehh thats nice and all but I personally live in Memphis and know multiple new associates at Baker Donelson, including a cousin, from the past few years and I know for a fact that the typical rate for new associates( at least in the Memphis and Nashville offices) is 100k. No way the MS market rate is 105k. Excluding Baker, most of the good firms in this region pay around 80-90k max for new associates if they hire them at all.

ETA: My comment was specifically about the Memphis office, which is the office closest to Ole Miss. I have no clue about BD offices outside of Memphis/Nashville.

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kalvano
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby kalvano » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:30 pm

TJISMYHERO wrote:I would argue that Tech is 5th of 9 schools in Texas. St. Mary's, Wesleyan, Southern Texas, and South Texas. are all worse.



St. Mary's, yes.

STCL actually does OK in Houston (believe it or not), and Wesleyan is saved only by virtue of being in Ft. Worth and thus having better access to a real city and something other than cows like TTU.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Ole Miss Vs. Texas Tech

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:14 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:The Mississippi market isn't as bad as many people are making it out to be. The market rate is about $105,000 (of course, any given person is not going to get this statistically). There are about 20 firms worth applying to in terms of TLS (high pay, large number of attorneys, and relatively low billing rates compared to Texas). Then there are smaller employers and all of that.

Honestly, I would rather take my chances at Ole Miss than Texas Tech. Ole Miss is relevant in MS. Tech is an afterthought in TX. Would I try to take a degree from either out of state without ties to wherever I'm taking it? Hell no.

Many mid-size firms, for some reason, have either removed themselves from NALP or have never been on NALP. While NALP is a good way to determine salary and billable requirements, you need to use business journal law firm lists to get access to the largest 20-50 firms in each market (yes it costs money but it's worth it).


Where on earth did you get that from?? Not even the top firm in Memphis(Baker Donelson) typically pays a starting salary that high.


Speaking with summer associates at the different major firms.

Edit: I'm slightly surprised that the market rate in Jackson is higher than in Memphis. But then again, I purchased the list of Memphis law firms and only 2 firm offices in the greater Memphis area had offices with more than 50 attorneys (and Jackson has 11).




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