Why Draw the Line at 14?

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bk1
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby bk1 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:55 pm

beachbum wrote:If we're talking about job placement (which often seems to be the case), then T12 or T17 T3 or T200 make much more sense ITE.


FTFY

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rayiner
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby rayiner » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:55 pm

The stability of the T14 is largely a product of them being the best schools in each of the major markets.

NE = Harvard, Yale
NYC = Columbia, NYU, Cornell
Mid-Atlantic = Penn
DC = Georgetown, Virginia
South = Duke
Midwest = Chicago, Northwestern, Michigan
West = Stanford, Berkeley

Now, this is a historical categorization. As other regions grow rapidly, you're seeing more "top" schools being added to the list. Eg: UCLA because of SoCal, UT because of Texas, Vanderbilt because of the south. But these are relative newcomers, while the traditional T14 have reputations extending back to the beginning of the century.

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Bosque
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby Bosque » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:24 pm

JazzOne wrote:
weejonbu wrote:Albeit entirely unintentional... wow, I suck at geography too... thanks for the corrections there Jazz

You have to sharpen your troll senses if you want to survive on TLS.


Jazz, he missed the initial sarcasm. I have a feeling this is too subtle for him as well.

Weejonbu: the poster whose geography you "corrected" was purposefully misstating facts in order to point out the logical fallacy of the poster he in turn was quoting. So not only did YOU fail at geography, you also failed at seeing the point. HTH

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nealric
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby nealric » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:13 pm

If we're talking about job placement (which often seems to be the case), then T12 or T17 make much more sense ITE.


There really isn't a convincing employment dropoff after the 12th school. There is a dropoff after 17, so that makes some sense, but the 17th spot isn't stable enough to call it "T17".

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Kiersten1985
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby Kiersten1985 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:25 pm

It has nothing to do with employment.

The current top 14 schools are the only schools that have ever ranked as a top 10 school. If anything, it shows the consistency of their rankings.

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im_blue
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby im_blue » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:37 pm

beachbum wrote:If we're talking about job placement (which often seems to be the case), then T12 or T17 make much more sense ITE.

TITCR, MVPDN > BCG ITE

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fugitivejammer
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby fugitivejammer » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:23 pm

im_blue wrote:
beachbum wrote:If we're talking about job placement (which often seems to be the case), then T12 or T17 make much more sense ITE.

TITCR, MVPDN > BCG ITE


Nice...a 100% acronym post. I like this.

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androstan
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby androstan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:32 pm

Kiersten1985 wrote:It has nothing to do with employment.

The current top 14 schools are the only schools that have ever ranked as a top 10 school. If anything, it shows the consistency self-perpetuating nature of their rankings.

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rayiner
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:18 pm

androstan wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:It has nothing to do with employment.

The current top 14 schools are the only schools that have ever ranked as a top 10 school. If anything, it shows the consistency self-perpetuating nature of their rankings.


The rankings aren't self-perpetuating so much as the underlying reputations are.

1977 (pre-USNWR) ranking of faculty quality wrote:1. Harvard University
2. Yale University
3. Stanford University
4. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
5. University of Chicago
6. Columbia University
7. University of California, Berkeley
8. University of Pennsylvania
9. University of Virginia
10. University of Texas, Austin
11. University of California, Los Angeles
12. Cornell University
13. New York University
14. Northwestern University
15. Duke University


1997 USNWR rankings wrote:1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Chicago
4. Stanford
5. Columbia
6. NYU
7. Michigan
8. Berkeley
9. Virginia
10. Duke
11. Penn
12. Cornell
13. Northwestern
14. Georgetown


In 20 years, you see basically the same schools in slightly different orders. Really the only substantive difference is UCLA and Texas dropping out and Georgetown coming in.

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JazzOne
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby JazzOne » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:20 pm

rayiner wrote:
androstan wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:It has nothing to do with employment.

The current top 14 schools are the only schools that have ever ranked as a top 10 school. If anything, it shows the consistency self-perpetuating nature of their rankings.


The rankings aren't self-perpetuating so much as the underlying reputations are.

1977 (pre-USNWR) ranking of faculty quality wrote:1. Harvard University
2. Yale University
3. Stanford University
4. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
5. University of Chicago
6. Columbia University
7. University of California, Berkeley
8. University of Pennsylvania
9. University of Virginia
10. University of Texas, Austin
11. University of California, Los Angeles
12. Cornell University
13. New York University
14. Northwestern University
15. Duke University


1997 USNWR rankings wrote:1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Chicago
4. Stanford
5. Columbia
6. NYU
7. Michigan
8. Berkeley
9. Virginia
10. Duke
11. Penn
12. Cornell
13. Northwestern
14. Georgetown


In 20 years, you see basically the same schools in slightly different orders. Really the only substantive difference is UCLA and Texas dropping out and Georgetown coming in.

Exactly, this explains the T14 designation much better than "those were the only schools ever to break into the top 10!!!!" As if no one ever heard of those schools before USNWR.

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ahduth
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby ahduth » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:56 pm

JakeL wrote:Blatant anti-stanford trolling here.


I laughed... then I cried a little.

oscarthegrouch
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby oscarthegrouch » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:26 am

rayiner wrote:
androstan wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:It has nothing to do with employment.

The current top 14 schools are the only schools that have ever ranked as a top 10 school. If anything, it shows the consistency self-perpetuating nature of their rankings.


The rankings aren't self-perpetuating so much as the underlying reputations are.

1977 (pre-USNWR) ranking of faculty quality wrote:1. Harvard University
2. Yale University
3. Stanford University
4. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
5. University of Chicago
6. Columbia University
7. University of California, Berkeley
8. University of Pennsylvania
9. University of Virginia
10. University of Texas, Austin
11. University of California, Los Angeles
12. Cornell University
13. New York University
14. Northwestern University
15. Duke University


1997 USNWR rankings wrote:1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Chicago
4. Stanford
5. Columbia
6. NYU
7. Michigan
8. Berkeley
9. Virginia
10. Duke
11. Penn
12. Cornell
13. Northwestern
14. Georgetown


In 20 years, you see basically the same schools in slightly different orders. Really the only substantive difference is UCLA and Texas dropping out and Georgetown coming in.


Interesting

CanadianWolf
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:27 pm

My understanding is that the Top 14 law schools are distinguished by their nationalized placement & recruiting success. The two law schools tied at 15th in the USNews rankings are both state supported institutions, thereby obligated to serving & attracting significant numbers of in-state students, with dominant local &/or regional placement.

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niederbomb
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby niederbomb » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:30 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:

My understanding is that the Top 14 law schools are distinguished by their nationalized placement & recruiting success. The two law schools tied at 15th in the USNews rankings are both state supported institutions, thereby obligated to serving & attracting significant numbers of in-state students, with dominant local &/or regional placement.


As are Michigan, Boalt, and Virginia...Your point?

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rayiner
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby rayiner » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:44 pm

niederbomb wrote:CanadianWolf wrote:

My understanding is that the Top 14 law schools are distinguished by their nationalized placement & recruiting success. The two law schools tied at 15th in the USNews rankings are both state supported institutions, thereby obligated to serving & attracting significant numbers of in-state students, with dominant local &/or regional placement.


As are Michigan, Boalt, and Virginia...Your point?


Compare Michigan to UCLA. Neither has one of the two big national markets (DC and NYC) as their local market, both are state schools, etc.

NYC offices at OCI: Michigan (61), UCLA (29)
DC offices at OCI: Michigan (42), UCLA (15)

So Michigan has a pretty big edge in NYC and DC placement.

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Borhas
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby Borhas » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:02 pm

JDin2014 wrote:I understand the arguments for what make the T14 stand out from the rest of law schools. I know they have better national mobility, they're better respected, they attract better applicants and have better job prospects, etc. But why 14? Is GULC really so much better than UCLA (for example) that one deserves to be in this coveted group, but the other isn't? Or is it simply that the T14 move around less than 15-20 in the rankings (if they do.. I don't know if they do or not)?

I just find it hard to believe that any two schools ranked "next" to each other could be divided by such a definitive/important line. And "14" seems like an unusual number to place such a line, so I'm guessing there must be some good reason of which I'm unaware.


ummmm TTT-14 is merely an egregious form of Georgetown+Cornell trolling
TTT-10 is really just MVP trolling

as far as reasonable distinctions it's Yale=T1 Stanford=T2 and everything else is TTThird TTTier TTToiliet

HeavenWood
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:06 pm

.
Last edited by HeavenWood on Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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oscodasa
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby oscodasa » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:11 pm

There's actually a really good TLS article that sums up the logic of the T14 emphasis:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/dissecti ... kings.html

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Borhas
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby Borhas » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:36 pm

oscodasa wrote:There's actually a really good TLS article that sums up the logic of the T14 emphasis:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/dissecti ... kings.html


the article didn't have any employment data to back up its assertions (

so it's not actually that good

example: Vandy has probably out-placed or been equal to Cornell and Georgetown in recent years. Vandy also has much greater geographic diversity in placement. Cornell sends about 80% to the Northeast (vast majority to NY) while Vandy places only 40% in its own region, the rest mostly evenly spread across the country. Course Vandy also has higher median LSAT and GPA than Cornell too... but Cornell is T-14 and Vandy is not... sure that makes a lot of sense.

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JazzOne
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:06 pm

Borhas wrote:
oscodasa wrote:There's actually a really good TLS article that sums up the logic of the T14 emphasis:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/dissecti ... kings.html


the article didn't have any employment data to back up its assertions (

so it's not actually that good

example: Vandy has probably out-placed or been equal to Cornell and Georgetown in recent years. Vandy also has much greater geographic diversity in placement. Cornell sends about 80% to the Northeast (vast majority to NY) while Vandy places only 40% in its own region, the rest mostly evenly spread across the country. Course Vandy also has higher median LSAT and GPA than Cornell too... but Cornell is T-14 and Vandy is not... sure that makes a lot of sense.

+1

I've often said that I regret not applying to Vandy.

HeavenWood
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:18 pm

Borhas wrote:
oscodasa wrote:There's actually a really good TLS article that sums up the logic of the T14 emphasis:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/dissecti ... kings.html


the article didn't have any employment data to back up its assertions (

so it's not actually that good

example: Vandy has probably out-placed or been equal to Cornell and Georgetown in recent years. Vandy also has much greater geographic diversity in placement. Cornell sends about 80% to the Northeast (vast majority to NY) while Vandy places only 40% in its own region, the rest mostly evenly spread across the country. Course Vandy also has higher median LSAT and GPA than Cornell too... but Cornell is T-14 and Vandy is not... sure that makes a lot of sense.


Not to knock Vandy, but I believe Cornell's placement statistics have more to due with self-selection than a lack of power. For most grads, the NE/Mid-Atlantic regions are more desirable locations than the South. That said, Vandy has proven itself as one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) school outside the T14.

bigkahuna2020
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:27 pm

rayiner wrote:The stability of the T14 is largely a product of them being the best schools in each of the major markets.

NE = Harvard, Yale
NYC = Columbia, NYU, Cornell
Mid-Atlantic = Penn
DC = Georgetown, Virginia
South = Duke
Midwest = Chicago, Northwestern, Michigan
West = Stanford, Berkeley

Now, this is a historical categorization. As other regions grow rapidly, you're seeing more "top" schools being added to the list. Eg: UCLA because of SoCal, UT because of Texas, Vanderbilt because of the south. But these are relative newcomers, while the traditional T14 have reputations extending back to the beginning of the century.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_school ... aw_schools

Reputations for law schools are not about the beginning of the (assuming 20th) century

in 1900, Boalt was 6 years old, Stanford 7, and Duke Law wasn't even Duke Law

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Borhas
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby Borhas » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:53 pm

HeavenWood wrote:Not to knock Vandy, but I believe Cornell's placement statistics have more to due with self-selection than a lack of power. For most grads, the NE/Mid-Atlantic regions are more desirable locations than the South. That said, Vandy has proven itself as one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) school outside the T14.


well, the assertions we have for supporting T-14> Non-T-14 are:

1. National Reach
2. Employment more likely
3. More selective admissions

all of these assertions turn out to be not-necessarily true for the T-14 because Vandy (compared to Cornell) has:

1. Greater Reach
2. Equivalent or Superior employment #'s
3. More selective admissions

this doesn't even take into account cost or environment... which are almost certainly also in Vandy's favor

so like I said... TTT-14= Cornell or Georgetown trolling

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thickfreakness
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby thickfreakness » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:34 am

Borhas wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Not to knock Vandy, but I believe Cornell's placement statistics have more to due with self-selection than a lack of power. For most grads, the NE/Mid-Atlantic regions are more desirable locations than the South. That said, Vandy has proven itself as one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) school outside the T14.


well, the assertions we have for supporting T-14> Non-T-14 are:

1. National Reach
2. Employment more likely
3. More selective admissions

all of these assertions turn out to be not-necessarily true for the T-14 because Vandy (compared to Cornell) has:

1. Greater Reach
2. Equivalent or Superior employment #'s
3. More selective admissions

this doesn't even take into account cost or environment... which are almost certainly also in Vandy's favor

so like I said... TTT-14= Cornell or Georgetown trolling


It's T12 or bust, baby! Where were you when the last USNWR ranking came out?

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Borhas
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Re: Why Draw the Line at 14?

Postby Borhas » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:32 am

thickfreakness wrote:
Borhas wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Not to knock Vandy, but I believe Cornell's placement statistics have more to due with self-selection than a lack of power. For most grads, the NE/Mid-Atlantic regions are more desirable locations than the South. That said, Vandy has proven itself as one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) school outside the T14.


well, the assertions we have for supporting T-14> Non-T-14 are:

1. National Reach
2. Employment more likely
3. More selective admissions

all of these assertions turn out to be not-necessarily true for the T-14 because Vandy (compared to Cornell) has:

1. Greater Reach
2. Equivalent or Superior employment #'s
3. More selective admissions

this doesn't even take into account cost or environment... which are almost certainly also in Vandy's favor

so like I said... TTT-14= Cornell or Georgetown trolling


It's T12 or bust, baby! Where were you when the last USNWR ranking came out?


ummm no it's T1 ("Yale") or T2 ("Stanford") or bust/TTT, baybay!




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