Top Law Schools

Well?

Tulane seems to be one of the most polarizing schools out there. Some say it places well beyond its rank, others point to its low response rate among graduates and argue that it shouldn't be viewed as better than its rank at all. If one could possibly be intrigued by working in New Orleans or in environmental law (supposedly it's very strong for that), but is really more interested in DC in particular, and possibly the west coast/east coast, is Tulane a bad idea despite $75000 over three years?

Also, why can't Tulane rise in the rankings? It seems like it has the funds, name recognition, and history to at least buy its way to a top 30 if not a top 20 ranking, but it's stuck at or below 40.

Edit: Adjusted to reflect that I won't consider Tulane unless I can get the 25k up to 35k.

T14 for sure, not even close.

Tulane does not game the rankings. It's an example of what happens to good schools when they don't do so.

Where do you want to practice?

(Oh and Tulane has 72% reporting - which is almost as good as it gets).

Teoeo wrote:T14 for sure, not even close.

Exactly. Tulane will close so many doors, before you even get there and take into account the grades that you end up with, that it just isn't worth it even with the scholarship money. If you want to go to DC I might even go so far as to say that you have no chance at a DC job from Tulane; that might sound harsh but it's practically true.

One thing I will say though is that (baring HYS of course) you go sticker at a top 14 that has an exceptional LRAP. For example, if you have the option I would probably take Columbia or Berkeley over the rest of the non HYS top 14 because of the strength of their LRAP's.

Maybe if you want Maritime law or really want to work in the region. Tulane looks like a really good school but it doesn't have the same national clout that the t14 has.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Tulane does not game the rankings. It's an example of what happens to good schools when they don't do so.

Where do you want to practice?

(Oh and Tulane has 72% reporting - which is almost as good as it gets).

It actually gets much better. UVA has 89% reporting. NYU has 96% reporting. Chicago has 99% reporting.

plenipotentiary wrote:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Tulane does not game the rankings. It's an example of what happens to good schools when they don't do so.

Where do you want to practice?

(Oh and Tulane has 72% reporting - which is almost as good as it gets).

It actually gets much better. UVA has 89% reporting. NYU has 96% reporting. Chicago has 99% reporting.

If you took the time out to look up the reporting numbers all of the law schools, 72% is probably about top quarter (if not higher).

On another note, I would say see if you could get $35,000 a year (or so) from Tulane.

Sticker for T14s is a horrible idea. If it's not HYSCCN, do not pay sticker

The yearly cost of attendance (tuition, books, fees, living expenses) at Tulane is $61,850. That is according to their financial aid website.

So, lets do a rough calculation of what your loans will look like:

61,850 x 3 years of law school = 185,550

185,550 - 75,000 scholarship over three years = 110,550

So, even with a 25k a year scholarship, Tulane will cost roughly $110,000 over three years.


If you're comfortable taking out $110,000 at Tulane as opposed to $160,000 at a t14, go to Tulane. I think the difference between the two numbers is really not that substantial though. Additionally, as well as Tulane may do in the Northeast and on the West Coast, I'd venture to say that most of the t14's do better.


edit: Like Aberzombie said, at 35k from Tulane, this becomes way more difficult. Also, the idea that you have no chance at DC from Tulane is just stupid. You don't have the same chance you'd have coming from say UVA or Georgetown, but there is always a chance, especially for the top 15% or so.

T14. This isn't even a question.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

plenipotentiary wrote:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Tulane does not game the rankings. It's an example of what happens to good schools when they don't do so.

Where do you want to practice?

(Oh and Tulane has 72% reporting - which is almost as good as it gets).

It actually gets much better. UVA has 89% reporting. NYU has 96% reporting. Chicago has 99% reporting.

If you took the time out to look up the reporting numbers all of the law schools, 72% is probably about top quarter (if not higher).

On another note, I would say see if you could get $35,000 a year (or so) from Tulane.

Sticker for T14s is a horrible idea. If it's not HYSCCN, do not pay sticker

I took the time to look up the reporting numbers of a few T14 schools, since that's what's being discussed here.

The kids making top quarter salaries coming out of Tulane are making $15k less than the bottom quarter kids at Georgetown (the lowest ranked T14).

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Being in the top quarter of all law schools is not that impressive. There are too many law schools and most of them suck.

OBVIOUSLY T14. This is not even a close case.

Go to Tulane. Opens up another spot for me in t14.

plenipotentiary wrote: The kids making top quarter salaries coming out of Tulane are making $15k less than the bottom quarter kids at Georgetown (the lowest ranked T14).

That statement doesn't make logical sense. You aren't reading the data right.

Anyway, if you can get more money from Tulane, go for it (i.e. $35,000). If not, I still say you should avoid paying sticker for a non-T6.

EXAMPLE:

Paying sticker for Vanderbilt 67,500 x 3 = $202,500

I know Vanderbilt is not a "T14," but it's on par with Georgetown and Cornell.

So....

Tulane = $110,000 or so versus
Vanderbilt = $202,500

....

That's a big difference.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

plenipotentiary wrote:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Tulane does not game the rankings. It's an example of what happens to good schools when they don't do so.

Where do you want to practice?

(Oh and Tulane has 72% reporting - which is almost as good as it gets).

It actually gets much better. UVA has 89% reporting. NYU has 96% reporting. Chicago has 99% reporting.

If you took the time out to look up the reporting numbers all of the law schools, 72% is probably about top quarter (if not higher).

On another note, I would say see if you could get $35,000 a year (or so) from Tulane.

Sticker for T14s is a horrible idea. If it's not HYSCCN, do not pay sticker

Just because you made the decision to take money at Tulane and want to justify it does not mean you should be giving this poor advice to others. See, with a T14 with an LRAP program, sticker means that working in shitlaw will not an unbearable financial burden, if that's what you end up having to fall back on should you strike out at OCI. Of course, there's also a decent chance that you will land biglaw at a T14, and this will become much less of an issue.

But with a scholarship of $25,000 at Tulane (and a COA of $61,850), you're taking on $36,850 in debt per year, or $110,550 over the course of three years. That's no small chunk of change, except now you don't have any near as strong of an LRAP program to help pay off those loans (unless you find a 501(c)(3) to work for - because, you know, those pay so well and are dying to hire recent graduates!). Oh, and don't forget the interest payments that will accrue as you fail to pay off the loan over the course of 10-30 years. Oh, and don't forget that finding any shitlaw job will be far, far more difficult than it would be at a T14. And let's not even mention how significantly your chances of landing biglaw will be hindered, especially when you're competing against floods of T14 grads that are flocking to their hometown secondary markets in unprecedented numbers.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

plenipotentiary wrote: The kids making top quarter salaries coming out of Tulane are making $15k less than the bottom quarter kids at Georgetown (the lowest ranked T14).

That statement doesn't make logical sense. You aren't reading the data right.

The 25% salary at Georgetown is (reportedly) $160,000. The 75% salary at Tulane is (reportedly) $145,000. So, generally speaking, people with top quartile grades at Tulane are making slightly less money than people with bottom quartile grades at Georgetown. I'm sure that the data is fudged in both cases, but even with the fudgey data, it's clear which school is a better bet.

Am I still misreading? Could you explain it to me? I'm kind of a dummy. I have a lot of trouble with logic. That's why I'm paying sticker at a T14.

plenipotentiary wrote:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

plenipotentiary wrote: The kids making top quarter salaries coming out of Tulane are making $15k less than the bottom quarter kids at Georgetown (the lowest ranked T14).

That statement doesn't make logical sense. You aren't reading the data right.

The 25% salary at Georgetown is (reportedly) $160,000. The 75% salary at Tulane is (reportedly) $145,000. So, generally speaking, people with top quartile grades at Tulane are making slightly less money than people with bottom quartile grades at Georgetown. I'm sure that the data is fudged in both cases, but even with the fudgey data, it's clear which school is a better bet.

Am I still misreading? Could you explain it to me? I'm kind of a dummy. I have a lot of trouble with logic. That's why I'm paying sticker at a T14.

It is T14 if you don't want NO or the Deep South but 15K isn't that much difference considering Tulane grads more likely to work in a place with lower cost of living.

plenipotentiary wrote:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

plenipotentiary wrote: The kids making top quarter salaries coming out of Tulane are making $15k less than the bottom quarter kids at Georgetown (the lowest ranked T14).

That statement doesn't make logical sense. You aren't reading the data right.

The 25% salary at Georgetown is (reportedly) $160,000. The 75% salary at Tulane is (reportedly) $145,000. So, generally speaking, people with top quartile grades at Tulane are making slightly less money than people with bottom quartile grades at Georgetown. I'm sure that the data is fudged in both cases, but even with the fudgey data, it's clear which school is a better bet.

Am I still misreading? Could you explain it to me? I'm kind of a dummy. I have a lot of trouble with logic. That's why I'm paying sticker at a T14.

He seems to be saying that a rough glance at the numbers indicates that Georgetown has a larger number of people making higher salaries than at Tulane.

GULC has 25th 160k - Median 160 - 75th 160k. Assuming similar reporting numbers, that would indicate that GULC has far more people making those 160k salaries than Tulane has even making 145k.

I think... (bringing in a grades distinction makes his statement nonsensical though)


Like AreJay said though, the cost of living in New Orleans is far lower than in DC or New York. If you type in a 160k salary in New York into one of those cost of living calculators, it'd probably tell you that you'd need to make 75k or so in New Orleans to equal the spending power of your 160k in NY.

i doubt the bottom 25 percent of graduates at Georgetown is making 160k, let alone anything. But anyway, id take most of the T14 at sticker over tulane unless tulane gave me a full tuition scholarship

plenipotentiary wrote:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

plenipotentiary wrote: The kids making top quarter salaries coming out of Tulane are making $15k less than the bottom quarter kids at Georgetown (the lowest ranked T14).

That statement doesn't make logical sense. You aren't reading the data right.

The 25% salary at Georgetown is (reportedly) $160,000. The 75% salary at Tulane is (reportedly) $145,000. So, generally speaking, people with top quartile grades at Tulane are making slightly less money than people with bottom quartile grades at Georgetown. I'm sure that the data is fudged in both cases, but even with the fudgey data, it's clear which school is a better bet.

Am I still misreading? Could you explain it to me? I'm kind of a dummy. I have a lot of
trouble with logic. That's why I'm paying sticker at a T14.

You are thinking too deeply about it.

You stated that the bottom quarter kids at Georgetown make x amount more than the bottom quarter kids at Tulane. Whether or not this is true, which I don't believe it is, the private sector salaries generally would not apply to the bottom quarters of the classes. This is because the bottom quarter will likely not get private practice from either.

Does that make sense?

You analysis was fine if we were comparing the bottom quarter of students that go into private practice (not the bottom quarter of the classes in general).

Oban wrote:i doubt the bottom 25 percent of graduates at Georgetown is making 160k, let alone anything. But anyway, id take most of the T14 at sticker over tulane unless tulane gave me a full tuition scholarship

This poster gets it. Hell, bottom half from either would kill for $160,000.

Oban wrote:i doubt the bottom 25 percent of graduates at Georgetown is making 160k, let alone anything. But anyway, id take most of the T14 at sticker over tulane unless tulane gave me a full tuition scholarship

It doesn't mean that the bottom 25% of the class is making 160k. It means that, of those working in private practice who reported their salary, the bottom quarter of the numbers is less than or equal to 160k.

edit: well I see now that the guy you guys are referring to actually attempted to look at the 75th and 25th numbers and impute grade placement to them. That just makes no sense.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

plenipotentiary wrote:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Tulane does not game the rankings. It's an example of what happens to good schools when they don't do so.

Where do you want to practice?

(Oh and Tulane has 72% reporting - which is almost as good as it gets).

It actually gets much better. UVA has 89% reporting. NYU has 96% reporting. Chicago has 99% reporting.

If you took the time out to look up the reporting numbers all of the law schools, 72% is probably about top quarter (if not higher).

On another note, I would say see if you could get $35,000 a year (or so) from Tulane.

Sticker for T14s is a horrible idea. If it's not HYSCCN, do not pay sticker

Be aware that his HYSCCN distinction is a largely arbitrary distinction perpetuated by Top law schools.com lore. First, HYS really are not in the same class with any of CCN, and second the only place where you see a large distinction between CCN (especially NYU) and the rest of the top 14 is in regards to NYC firm jobs. The top 6 acronym doesn't exist in the rel world; that's something invented by TLS. OP as long as you are not making getting a NYC firm job your primary goal (which it sounds like you aren't) going to any of the top 14 outside of HYS at sticker is just as good of an idea as going to CCN in comparison to going to Tulane with money.

BruceWayne wrote:
Be aware that his HYSCCN distinction is a largely arbitrary distinction perpetuated by Top law schools.com lore. First, HYS really are not in the same class with any of CCN, and second the only place where you see a large distinction between CCN (especially NYU) and the rest of the top 14 is in regards to NYC firm jobs. The top 6 acronym doesn't exist in the rel world; that's something invented by TLS. OP as long as you are not making getting a NYC firm job your primary goal (which it sounds like you aren't) going to any of the top 14 outside of HYS at sticker is just as good of an idea as going to CCN in comparison to going to Tulane with money.

I agree with this. I still think the idea that Tulane students have no shot at DC is ridiculous though.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

plenipotentiary wrote:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

plenipotentiary wrote: The kids making top quarter salaries coming out of Tulane are making $15k less than the bottom quarter kids at Georgetown (the lowest ranked T14).

That statement doesn't make logical sense. You aren't reading the data right.

The 25% salary at Georgetown is (reportedly) $160,000. The 75% salary at Tulane is (reportedly) $145,000. So, generally speaking, people with top quartile grades at Tulane are making slightly less money than people with bottom quartile grades at Georgetown. I'm sure that the data is fudged in both cases, but even with the fudgey data, it's clear which school is a better bet.

Am I still misreading? Could you explain it to me? I'm kind of a dummy. I have a lot of
trouble with logic. That's why I'm paying sticker at a T14.

You are thinking too deeply about it.

You stated that the bottom quarter kids at Georgetown make x amount more than the bottom quarter kids at Tulane. Whether or not this is true, which I don't believe it is, the private sector salaries generally would not apply to the bottom quarters of the classes. This is because the bottom quarter will likely not get private practice from either.

Does that make sense?

You analysis was fine if we were comparing the bottom quarter of students that go into private practice (not the bottom quarter of the classes in general).

Oban wrote:i doubt the bottom 25 percent of graduates at Georgetown is making 160k, let alone anything. But anyway, id take most of the T14 at sticker over tulane unless tulane gave me a full tuition scholarship

This poster gets it. Hell, bottom half from either would kill for $160,000.

What do you mean the bottom quarter don't get private practice? What do you think they do? They aren't unemployed (according to career services) so maybe PD and prosecutor but i doubt a large percentage do that. Everything else is harder to get then private practice.

employment as far as career services is concerned includes Starbucks and waiting tables at the Spaghetti Factory.

According to TLS results and other unofficial reports, only about 40 percent of Georgetown got big law, ie the only jobs that pay 160, if only 40 percent got biglaw, its safe to assume that most of the basement dwellers at Georgetown are/will be unemployed at graduation, employed in shit law, making the same as most Tulane graduates, or working non law/temp law jobs

Oban wrote:employment as far as career services is concerned includes Starbucks and waiting tables at the Spaghetti Factory.

According to TLS results and other unofficial reports, only about 40 percent of Georgetown got big law, ie the only jobs that pay 160, if only 40 percent got biglaw, its safe to assume that most of the basement dwellers at Georgetown are/will be unemployed at graduation, employed in shit law, making the same as most Tulane graduates, or working non law/temp law jobs

Good point. They also publish this in USNWR (for 2008 so maybe not relevant ITE)

Tulane - In law firms 57%, non-professional: 1%, Professional where JD not helpful: 5%, Professional where JD helpful but not required (example given FBI special agent, gov't regulatory agent): 3%, Bar passage required: 92%

Georgetown - In law firms 74%, non-professional: 0%, Professional where JD not helpful: 4%, Professional where JD helpful but not required: 3%, Bar passage required: 89%