Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

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llachans
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby llachans » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:11 pm

Transferthrowaway wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Only 3 more LSAT points and Illinois will be a safety for you!

What's the scuttlebutt on how badly the rankings fallout is going to be from that whole fiasco?


I've been wondering the same thing. I've been toying around with EDing to IL but I didn't know if the scandal would effect the school that much. I'm also hesitant because I'm half-hoping to get into Iowa (where I did my undergrad) and know I wouldn't get any scholarship money with the stats I have now.

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ChiCity22
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby ChiCity22 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:09 pm

llachans wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Only 3 more LSAT points and Illinois will be a safety for you!

What's the scuttlebutt on how badly the rankings fallout is going to be from that whole fiasco?


I've been wondering the same thing. I've been toying around with EDing to IL but I didn't know if the scandal would effect the school that much. I'm also hesitant because I'm half-hoping to get into Iowa (where I did my undergrad) and know I wouldn't get any scholarship money with the stats I have now.



Depaul / Kent / LUC > Iowa --- For Chicago

jml8756
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby jml8756 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:25 pm

Please don't think you'll be fine at one of the TT or TTT Chicago schools as long as you want to be a public defender or prosecutor. I heard anecdotally that the Cook County State's Attorney's Office hired about 20 people last year: 10 up front and 10 from the waiting list. That was out of several hundred applicants. It is very brutal.

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bk1
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby bk1 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:29 pm

jml8756 wrote:Please don't think you'll be fine at one of the TT or TTT Chicago schools as long as you want to be a public defender or prosecutor. I heard anecdotally that the Cook County State's Attorney's Office hired about 20 people last year: 10 up front and 10 from the waiting list. That was out of several hundred applicants. It is very brutal.


Relevant and worthwhile necro. Would necro again.

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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:36 pm

ChicagoRambler89 wrote:
Sauer Grapes wrote:I don't want to be a downer here, but if you want to get a Chicago firm job in this economy, please, please, please do not pay sticker for any of those schools.

Half the class at NU is striking out, and Chicago was brutal this year.


Thanks for your advice. We are all wise enough to realize that today's applicants are well over three years away from having JDs, assuming they attend and graduate from LS. We cannot assume, however, that the state of the economy will be the same in four years as it is today. It may be better, the same, or worse. Reasons to attend or not to attend a certain LS that are based on the current conditions of the economy are very weak. I understand that the Chicago legal market is crappy today and has been for two years now. But that really doesn't mean that it won't be better in four years. Or anytime in my lifetime for that matter.

Isn't a JD a long-term investment, anyway? Once you've earned it, it's something that you'll always have.

Or does it really not matter because the economy will continue to worsen and the number of legal jobs continue to dwindle?


Two years? For students graduating from these schools its been crappy for over a decade.

Moreover, this argument that "things will be better when I graduate" has been proffered on this site again and again and again. Its getting old. The legal market is stagnant if not shrinking. There are 25,000 jobs for 45,000 grads. Its a permanent state of affairs, a permanent decline, a permanent inequity.

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180asBreath
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby 180asBreath » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:45 am

jml8756 wrote:Please don't think you'll be fine at one of the TT or TTT Chicago schools as long as you want to be a public defender or prosecutor. I heard anecdotally that the Cook County State's Attorney's Office hired about 20 people last year: 10 up front and 10 from the waiting list. That was out of several hundred applicants. It is very brutal.


You think Chicago and Northwestern grads would be a near-lock for jobs in the state's attorney office? If so, have they changed the pension plans?

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mattviphky
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby mattviphky » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:21 am

on the cook co website, it says that every year 400 apply for 25 spots...not easy by any means

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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:39 pm

Also remember that just because UChi and NW and the rest of the T14 might send many graduates into biglaw, there are also hundreds or thousands of dedicated government and PI students among these schools who have just as many gov't/PI internships and WE as you do. They'll have a much easier time getting summer and school-year internships (especially because the lax academic requirements at T14 schools make it much easier to hold down a volunteer job). They don't want biglaw jobs. Because of the federal government hiring cutbacks a lot of these students are targeting state or local level jobs. Cook County is probably one of the most desirable offices in the country and will have many applicants with very good credentials. This doesn't even begin to discuss the glut of laid off associates also competing for those jobs.

I don't know how these schools place in DA or PD offices in small counties in IL or whether those offices even hire out of law school.

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romothesavior
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:43 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Also remember that just because UChi and NW and the rest of the T14 might send many graduates into biglaw, there are also hundreds or thousands of dedicated government and PI students among these schools who have just as many gov't/PI internships and WE as you do.

+1. The mistaken notion that people at TTTs have that they'll just get small firm, PI, and government jobs because T14ers don't want those jobs is just ridiculous. There are thousands of students at great schools targeting Chicago PI/gov't. "Yeah I'm going to a TTT, but I don't want biglaw so its okay!" No its not okay, and people who think this way are huge idiots. It is such a stupid assumption and it has no basis in reality.

Also, this thread is a sweet necro.

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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby trollhunter2 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:25 pm

im_blue wrote:
ChicagoRambler89 wrote:
im_blue wrote:
ChicagoRambler89 wrote:We are all wise enough to realize that today's applicants are well over three years away from having JDs, assuming they attend and graduate from LS. We cannot assume, however, that the state of the economy will be the same in four years as it is today. It may be better, the same, or worse. Reasons to attend or not to attend a certain LS that are based on the current conditions of the economy are very weak. I understand that the Chicago legal market is crappy today and has been for two years now. But that really doesn't mean that it won't be better in four years. Or anytime in my lifetime for that matter.

Isn't a JD a long-term investment, anyway? Once you've earned it, it's something that you'll always have.


All this is irrelevant because you'll be interviewing for jobs just one year after starting law school, so you'd better pray that the market recovers in less than 2 years. And if you don't get a decent job then, your career is basically over before it started.


That's a good point. But why would one's career be "basically over before it started" if you don't get a decent job right off the bat?

Because you'll either be doing doc review (which is basically like temping through an agency) or something outside the legal field, both of which are resume killers. When and if the market picks up, there will always be more than enough fresh grads to hire.


Your over generalization does not correlate with the facts. According to the ABA, 80 percent of Kent graduates in 2011 landed a Full-time job, and 22 percent of the class landing a job with a firm with 11 associates or more. That doesn’t sound like everybody is doing doc review to me.
Your sweeping over-simplification that a person’s career is over before it even begins, if one has to doc review is narrow-minded. Doc review is temp work. I think employers will understand that you had to take what you could get to pay the bills. That's like saying, you won't ever get a job after your BA because you spent that summer working at starbucks. That’s why there are externships anyway in which you establish a paid position your 2L summer and then a job once you graduate. Kent guarantees every 1L a summer externship.

http://placementsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/Home.aspx

So your sweeping generalization needs to be grounded in fact. What's sources can you cite?

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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby flem » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:30 pm

tbalbert wrote:
Your over generalization does not correlate with the facts. According to the ABA, 80 percent of Kent graduates in 2011 landed a Full-time job, and 22 percent of the class landing a job with a firm with 11 associates or more. That doesn’t sound like everybody is doing doc review to me.
Your sweeping over-simplification that a person’s career is over before it even begins, if one has to doc review is narrow-minded. Doc review is temp work. I think employers will understand that you had to take what you could get to pay the bills. That's like saying, you won't ever get a job after your BA because you spent that summer working at starbucks. That’s why there are externships anyway in which you establish a paid position your 2L summer and then a job once you graduate. Kent guarantees every 1L a summer externship.

http://placementsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/Home.aspx

So your sweeping generalization needs to be grounded in fact. What's sources can you cite?


Not a worthwhile necro. Would not necro again.

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skers
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby skers » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:39 pm

tbalbert wrote:
im_blue wrote:
ChicagoRambler89 wrote:
im_blue wrote:
All this is irrelevant because you'll be interviewing for jobs just one year after starting law school, so you'd better pray that the market recovers in less than 2 years. And if you don't get a decent job then, your career is basically over before it started.


That's a good point. But why would one's career be "basically over before it started" if you don't get a decent job right off the bat?

Because you'll either be doing doc review (which is basically like temping through an agency) or something outside the legal field, both of which are resume killers. When and if the market picks up, there will always be more than enough fresh grads to hire.


Your over generalization does not correlate with the facts. According to the ABA, 80 percent of Kent graduates in 2011 landed a Full-time job, and 22 percent of the class landing a job with a firm with 11 associates or more. That doesn’t sound like everybody is doing doc review to me.
Your sweeping over-simplification that a person’s career is over before it even begins, if one has to doc review is narrow-minded. Doc review is temp work. I think employers will understand that you had to take what you could get to pay the bills. That's like saying, you won't ever get a job after your BA because you spent that summer working at starbucks. That’s why there are externships anyway in which you establish a paid position your 2L summer and then a job once you graduate. Kent guarantees every 1L a summer externship.

http://placementsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/Home.aspx

So your sweeping generalization needs to be grounded in fact. What's sources can you cite?


22 percent at firms of 11 or more is atrocious.

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romothesavior
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:46 pm

tbalbert wrote:According to the ABA, 80 percent of Kent graduates in 2011 landed a Full-time job, and 22 percent of the class landing a job with a firm with 11 associates or more.

22% placed in firms of 11 or more? You do realize that is absolutely, positively atrocious?

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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby trollhunter2 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:39 pm

romothesavior wrote:
tbalbert wrote:According to the ABA, 80 percent of Kent graduates in 2011 landed a Full-time job, and 22 percent of the class landing a job with a firm with 11 associates or more.

22% placed in firms of 11 or more? You do realize that is absolutely, positively atrocious?


Only if you assume that all 22% placed in firms of ONLY 11-20, which it does not. Just look at the stats. And if you ranked schools based on LT-employment then according to this table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... Bd3c#gid=4

Kent would be ranked 39th, at 80% employed in LT. Point is, NOT everybody is doing doc review. If you actually took the time to read my post, instead of uncritically replying with the same run-of-the-mill answer which helps no one, then might have caught that.

I would be fine with a firm of 11-20, but the list only begins at 11 and goes up to +500, which incidentally, is the second largest category.

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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby trollhunter2 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:46 pm

flem wrote:
tbalbert wrote:
Your over generalization does not correlate with the facts. According to the ABA, 80 percent of Kent graduates in 2011 landed a Full-time job, and 22 percent of the class landing a job with a firm with 11 associates or more. That doesn’t sound like everybody is doing doc review to me.
Your sweeping over-simplification that a person’s career is over before it even begins, if one has to doc review is narrow-minded. Doc review is temp work. I think employers will understand that you had to take what you could get to pay the bills. That's like saying, you won't ever get a job after your BA because you spent that summer working at starbucks. That’s why there are externships anyway in which you establish a paid position your 2L summer and then a job once you graduate. Kent guarantees every 1L a summer externship.

http://placementsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/Home.aspx

So your sweeping generalization needs to be grounded in fact. What's sources can you cite?


Not a worthwhile necro. Would not necro again.


What' the matter? ¿No habla ingles? You can necro this. Too bad you couldn't actually engage in argument. No wonder you’re so paranoid about being employed. No school is going to help that bud.

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flem
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby flem » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:49 pm

tbalbert wrote:
What' the matter? ¿No habla ingles? You can necro this. Too bad you couldn't actually engage in argument. No wonder you’re so paranoid about being employed. No school is going to help that bud.


wut

You're defending a school that is prohibitively expensive and is placing a disproportional amount of kids into small firms that don't allow them to service the crippling debt they incurred. Also that employment stat counts "JD preferred/academic/business and industry" (whatever the fuck these are), and shitty schools place a huge amount of kids into these catch-all categories to pad their employment stats.

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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby basilseal » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:54 pm

tbalbert wrote:
flem wrote:
tbalbert wrote:
Your over generalization does not correlate with the facts. According to the ABA, 80 percent of Kent graduates in 2011 landed a Full-time job, and 22 percent of the class landing a job with a firm with 11 associates or more. That doesn’t sound like everybody is doing doc review to me.
Your sweeping over-simplification that a person’s career is over before it even begins, if one has to doc review is narrow-minded. Doc review is temp work. I think employers will understand that you had to take what you could get to pay the bills. That's like saying, you won't ever get a job after your BA because you spent that summer working at starbucks. That’s why there are externships anyway in which you establish a paid position your 2L summer and then a job once you graduate. Kent guarantees every 1L a summer externship.

http://placementsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/Home.aspx

So your sweeping generalization needs to be grounded in fact. What's sources can you cite?


Not a worthwhile necro. Would not necro again.


What' the matter? ¿No habla ingles? You can necro this. Too bad you couldn't actually engage in argument. No wonder you’re so paranoid about being employed. No school is going to help that bud.


Troll?

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Ludo!
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby Ludo! » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:55 pm

tbalbert wrote: Doc review is temp work. I think employers will understand that you had to take what you could get to pay the bills.


There is a lot wrong with your post but this one has to be shot down right away. Doc review is absolutely the kiss of death. If that's the only job you can get after law school your career is pretty much over. Employers don't "understand".

Read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=157855

It should be required reading of all 0ls before they're allowed to post

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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby trollhunter2 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:59 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
tbalbert wrote: Doc review is temp work. I think employers will understand that you had to take what you could get to pay the bills.


There is a lot wrong with your post but this one has to be shot down right away. Doc review is absolutely the kiss of death. If that's the only job you can get after law school your career is pretty much over. Employers don't "understand".

Read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=157855



And how long have you been a licensed attorney? How many people do you know personally who have had this happen to them? If it's the kiss of death, why add it to your resume? If being unemployed is worse then why do people take doc review jobs? Besides, I wasn't even arguing that doc review is desirable work. It's not the doom and gloom that you make it out to be. Do you have ANY worldly evidence to back this up besides some self-selected article?
Last edited by trollhunter2 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

trollhunter2
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby trollhunter2 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:02 pm

flem wrote:
tbalbert wrote:
What' the matter? ¿No habla ingles? You can necro this. Too bad you couldn't actually engage in argument. No wonder you’re so paranoid about being employed. No school is going to help that bud.


wut

You're defending a school that is prohibitively expensive and is placing a disproportional amount of kids into small firms that don't allow them to service the crippling debt they incurred. Also that employment stat counts "JD preferred/academic/business and industry" (whatever the fuck these are), and shitty schools place a huge amount of kids into these catch-all categories to pad their employment stats.


No, that employment stat was the sumation of LT numbers from the 11 to +500 column in an excel spreadsheet.

And I am not defending any such school. Actually, I am just citing numbers. I am sorry the school isn't in the top 14. It's mathematically impossible for everybody to go to a top school. Kent is far from the bottom, that's all I am saying.

PS: U of Iowa places the same number of "kids" into 500+ big law (15). Food for thought.
Last edited by trollhunter2 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:04 pm

tbalbert wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
tbalbert wrote:According to the ABA, 80 percent of Kent graduates in 2011 landed a Full-time job, and 22 percent of the class landing a job with a firm with 11 associates or more.

22% placed in firms of 11 or more? You do realize that is absolutely, positively atrocious?


Only if you assume that all 22% placed in firms of ONLY 11-20, which it does not.

I'm not making that assumption. It's awful. For a school that costs 200k+, that is truly horrendous.

Also, that's from c/o 2010. Class of 2011 is almost certainly far worse.

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flem
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby flem » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:05 pm

tbalbert wrote:

And how long have you been a licensed attorney? How many people do you know personally who have had this happen to them? If it's the kiss of death, why add it to your resume? If being unemployed is worse then why do people take doc review jobs? Besides, I wasn't even arguing that doc review is desirable work. It's not the doom and gloom that you make it out to be. Do you have ANY worldly evidence to back this up besides some self-selected article?


Image

I work in a firm of 300+ attorneys, I'd be happy to direct you to our discovery center for more information.

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Ludo!
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby Ludo! » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:08 pm

tbalbert wrote:And how long have you been a licensed attorney? How many people do you know personally who have had this happen to them? If it's the kiss of death, why add it to your resume? If being unemployed is worse then why do people take doc review jobs? Besides, I wasn't even arguing that doc review is desirable work. It's not the doom and gloom that you make it out to be. Do you have ANY worldly evidence to back this up besides some self-selected article?


I'm not a licensed attorney, I'm someone far more qualified to talk about what legal hiring is like right now - a 2l who just went through OCI and has spent the last two years researching legal hiring.

And the thread I linked, which apparently you didn't even bother to click on, was mostly posted for entertainment value. But the point is the same - if you're doing doc review it means you fucked up and the chances of recovering from that are not good.

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flem
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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby flem » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:10 pm

tbalbert wrote:
No, that employment stat was the sumation of LT numbers from the 11 to +500 column in an excel spreadsheet.


So you're pointing out they had shit biglaw placement as a defense?

talbert wrote:And I am not defending any such school. Actually, I am just citing numbers. I am sorry the school isn't in the top 14. It's mathematically impossible for everybody to go to a top school. Kent is far from the bottom, that's all I am saying.


The employment data outside of the T25 looks a lot more like the TTTT schools than T14 schools bruh. Of course not everyone can go to a top school, but you don't have to pay 200K for a chance to be one of 22 people to pay off that toxic debt you didn't have to incur in the first place from a bottom feeder in a saturated, highly competitive market.

talbert wrote:PS: U of Iowa places the same number of "kids" into 500+ big law (15). Food for thought.


Iowa is a T30 school in name only.

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Re: Chicago: Kent, DePaul, John Marshall and Loyola

Postby woeisme » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:12 pm

Sauer Grapes wrote:I don't want to be a downer here, but if you want to get a Chicago firm job in this economy, please, please, please do not pay sticker for any of those schools.

Half the class at NU is striking out, and Chicago was brutal this year.


This.




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