Michigan State

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TruHoosier
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Michigan State

Postby TruHoosier » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:00 pm

This might have already been discussed on here - I apologize if it has.

What is going on with Michigan State? I got a fee waiver from them over the summer, before I even had an LSAT score or transcript on file. I think they've wasted an entire forest of Redwoods with mail they've sent me. Some current student from there has also been e-mailing me and calling me.

Are they just that desperate for applicants? I was actually considering them since I am from that area and figured I could land a serious scholarship there. But they've sent up some serious warning flags.

Weren't they close to breaking into the T100? I had read that a few months back.

leap_your_bar
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Re: Michigan State

Postby leap_your_bar » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:06 pm

The general consensus is that they are on the rise, a big ten powerhouse that might have some geographic reach. They are incredibly expensive in state and I belieeeeve they are the Detroit School of Law simply sitting under the MSU umbrella for the past three to five years. Jeffrey Feiger went there too btw but while it wasn't affiliated with MSU.

I toured the school, I'm applying there. It's a pretty sweet building and everyone was nice. I did get an eerie feeling being there for some reason but thats probably just me. The assistant dean of admissions told me they are "very generous" to any applicant above a 160 LSAT. Their campus is pretty awesome too.

I grew up hating MSU in terms of sports so its really weird to consider them for law school but whatever. Are you considering applying to Wayne State?

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omninode
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Re: Michigan State

Postby omninode » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:25 pm

I'm getting hounded by them too. Got a phone call today. It is an attractive school, being on the MSU campus (which is beautiful). I have a friend who is a student at MSU (not the law school) so I go down there sometimes. I think MSU Law is absolutely at the high end of Tier 3 schools. Their stats basically got reset when they relocated a few years ago (formerly Detroit College of Law), otherwise I think they would be ranked. If you want to live and work in Michigan you could do a lot worse. They have a pretty good reputation around here.

Edit: Previous poster was right, they are still technically a private law school even though they now use the MSU name and facilities. I think they are gradually integrating with the university though.

leap_your_bar
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Re: Michigan State

Postby leap_your_bar » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:28 pm

This is what scares me. I'm most likely either going to MSU or Wayne. Everyone talks about how great they do in Michigan, and I understand the logic behind the assumption that Michigan grads go elsewhere and Wayne then MSU will dominate MI. But everyone talks about how bad T3's are and how you should avoid them at all costs. Yet everyone is positive about MSU and Wayne as if they are the exception to the rule.

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kaftka juice
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Re: Michigan State

Postby kaftka juice » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:07 pm

leap_your_bar wrote:This is what scares me. I'm most likely either going to MSU or Wayne. Everyone talks about how great they do in Michigan, and I understand the logic behind the assumption that Michigan grads go elsewhere and Wayne then MSU will dominate MI. But everyone talks about how bad T3's are and how you should avoid them at all costs. Yet everyone is positive about MSU and Wayne as if they are the exception to the rule.


Another MI native here: they are not necessarily an exception for the fact that you can't get a job from Wayne State and then go to NYC or something and expect results. But no one is going to Wayne hoping for that. People on this forum, in general, are. The lawyers I know in Michigan really respect Wayne (I'm from metro Detroit so I'm really not familiar with MSU law, however many pamphlets they try to send) and it's many older lawyers alma mater. It is true that people from UMich law leave--only 20% of them (I believe) are in-state. And although I like Michigan and would be fine living there, we all know it's not really an out-of-stater's dream. So I wouldn't say it dominates Michigan, but you'll def be in a fine position to get good work.

leap_your_bar
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Re: Michigan State

Postby leap_your_bar » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:03 pm

Thanks kaftka. That kind of settles the nerves, lol. Thats pretty much what I've heard from everyone. I'm cool living in Michigan, theres a plethora of excellent spots surrounding Detroit.

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thexfactor
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Re: Michigan State

Postby thexfactor » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:10 pm

Guys ok.. I am from the Detroit area. I was a 1L SA at a Woetown i mean motown firm last year. Since the economic collapse, a lot of michshitgan firms do not even recruit at the local schools anymore. They look for Umich grads that want to stay in Detroit. Firms like Butzel Long, Miller and Clark are not even recruiting at MSU, UD anymore. If they are, they are taking 1 student total. I also looked at the summer class at Miller Canfield. Everyone is from a T14 firm. Lowest school is Michishitgan. Butzel took like 3 summers last year. I think 2 from Mich. The hiring game has really changed... I would reevaluate your options. Please do your research!

People might respect wayne grads, but why hire them when you can hire a Umich grad?

The transfer game has also changed. Top 10% will no longer get you T14 or ucla/usc. YOu need more like top 5% with most schools cutting back. Top 20% or so for schools in the BC/BU/WUSTL/Emory range. However, transferring there will prob not get you a job either.....

The market is extremely tough right now. Even during good times Mich firms were not hiring much. THe small law firms are struggling too. The unemployment rate is double digits in Mich.
Just be careful guys.

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TruHoosier
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Re: Michigan State

Postby TruHoosier » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:20 pm

It's ironic I posted this yesterday because I got an e-mail from them last night telling me I'd likely qualify for a 17.5k scholarship. I'm definitely applying - doubt I will go there though.

I'm originally from southern Michigan - like Edwardsburg/South Bend area. I don't live with my family anymore, but I am wondering if I could establish state residency there. That would would make MSU a pretty good deal - like 15k a year. And I wouldn't mind working in Michigan, as long as it's not Detroit area.

I couldn't find tuition cost for out-of-staters. You guys have any idea how much that is?

I haven't really looked at Wayne State. My four schools right now are IU-Indy, IU-Bloomington, Notre Dame and I guess MSU.

My numbers are 3.25 GPA/161 LSAT.

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TruHoosier
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Re: Michigan State

Postby TruHoosier » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:23 pm

thexfactor wrote:Guys ok.. I am from the Detroit area. I was a 1L SA at a Woetown i mean motown firm last year. Since the economic collapse, a lot of michshitgan firms do not even recruit at the local schools anymore. They look for Umich grads that want to stay in Detroit. Firms like Butzel Long, Miller and Clark are not even recruiting at MSU, UD anymore. If they are, they are taking 1 student total. I also looked at the summer class at Miller Canfield. Everyone is from a T14 firm. Lowest school is Michishitgan. Butzel took like 3 summers last year. I think 2 from Mich. The hiring game has really changed... I would reevaluate your options. Please do your research!

People might respect wayne grads, but why hire them when you can hire a Umich grad?

The transfer game has also changed. Top 10% will no longer get you T14 or ucla/usc. YOu need more like top 5% with most schools cutting back. Top 20% or so for schools in the BC/BU/WUSTL/Emory range. However, transferring there will prob not get you a job either.....

The market is extremely tough right now. Even during good times Mich firms were not hiring much. THe small law firms are struggling too. The unemployment rate is double digits in Mich.
Just be careful guys.


Yeah, you bring up good points. I think if you go to MSU or Wayne you are gambling that the economy is going to rebound significantly between the time you start school and the time graduate.

Worst case scenario: I can just use this scholarship offer as bargaining leverage with other schools.

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thexfactor
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Re: Michigan State

Postby thexfactor » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:30 pm

TruHoosier wrote:
thexfactor wrote:Guys ok.. I am from the Detroit area. I was a 1L SA at a Woetown i mean motown firm last year. Since the economic collapse, a lot of michshitgan firms do not even recruit at the local schools anymore. They look for Umich grads that want to stay in Detroit. Firms like Butzel Long, Miller and Clark are not even recruiting at MSU, UD anymore. If they are, they are taking 1 student total. I also looked at the summer class at Miller Canfield. Everyone is from a T14 firm. Lowest school is Michishitgan. Butzel took like 3 summers last year. I think 2 from Mich. The hiring game has really changed... I would reevaluate your options. Please do your research!

People might respect wayne grads, but why hire them when you can hire a Umich grad?

The transfer game has also changed. Top 10% will no longer get you T14 or ucla/usc. YOu need more like top 5% with most schools cutting back. Top 20% or so for schools in the BC/BU/WUSTL/Emory range. However, transferring there will prob not get you a job either.....

The market is extremely tough right now. Even during good times Mich firms were not hiring much. THe small law firms are struggling too. The unemployment rate is double digits in Mich.
Just be careful guys.


Yeah, you bring up good points. I think if you go to MSU or Wayne you are gambling that the economy is going to rebound significantly between the time you start school and the time graduate.

Worst case scenario: I can just use this scholarship offer as bargaining leverage with other schools.


Let s be honest. I am from teh Detroit area. Even with an economic rebound and that is a BIG if, Detroit is going to lag behind everywhere else in the US. I think we will end up like Japan's economy of the 1990s and 2000s.

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omninode
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Re: Michigan State

Postby omninode » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:26 pm

TruHoosier wrote:I couldn't find tuition cost for out-of-staters. You guys have any idea how much that is

Tuition is the same for state residents and non-residents because it is a private law school and not publicly funded:

http://law.msu.edu/finaid/budgets-10-11.html

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Rocketman11
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Re: Michigan State

Postby Rocketman11 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:29 pm

A year or so ago, there was a leak of the T3/4 numerical rankings. MSU was tied for 108th. I'm confident it will be a T2 school in the very near term. They also give out a LOT of money (which helps raise their average scores of course). I think they are top 5 most generous schools in terms of merit dollars given per year.

I think it's a great option but would be cautious without a minimum of a 50% tuition scholarship (frankly I almost want to say 100%). You're taking a chance at a regional school in an ecomonically devastated region and it will be difficult to find work.

Regarding the Wayne v. MSU debate, I think Wayne has more respect in the Detroit area due to it's larger alumni base. If you are hoping for a job in Grand Rapids let's say, MSU would be fine. Either will be tough but I don't think Wayne has the advantage.

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omninode
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Re: Michigan State

Postby omninode » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:56 pm

I read somewhere (sorry, can't remember where) that Wayne's good reputation is based mainly on its history of placing prominent people in the Detroit/lower Michigan area. There are still a lot of old alumni out there, so their reputation is holding on-- for now. Wayne is generally seen as a school on the decline, while MSU Law is rising. In the coming decades, as their old alumni leave the picture, Wayne will almost certainly fall behind MSU Law in local/regional influence.

That's just something I read-- I can't say from personal experience how accurate it is-- but it makes sense to me. MSU Law has made a lot of bold moves in recent years to improve its standing (moving to East Lansing, giving out scholarships, aggressive recruiting tactics, etc.) while Wayne seems to be stagnating, and I say this as someone who has good friends attending both schools right now. MSU just seems like the better choice in the long run.

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State

Postby Go State » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:38 pm

I went to MSU my first year (hence, the moniker). I would highly recommend against it (and WSU as well). The Michigan economy is, frankly, terrible. I recall seeing something about how has the 3rd worst economy in the country (or maybe the 3rd highest rate of unemployment -- I don't remember exactly). I went to MSU with a full scholly and I seriously was questioning my decision by the end of my first year. There were a total of 21 employers coming to OCI (I think 16-18 law firms total). That is terrible when you have a class of 375 students (not to mention the size of WSU, which is also competing for the same jobs). I guess it all boils down to what other options you have. For me, prior to law school, I had offers for $60k /year (+ company car in one case) jobs that only required 40 hours /week. So it didn't make a lot of sense struggling to find something in the legal profession for $50K /year and long hours in Michigan after graduating from MSU. If you get a full ride and your options are to attend MSU or go flip burgers at McDonalds, then MSU is obviously a better bet. But if you are talking about incurring debt to go there, I would highly reconsider. It's a tough call, IMO, if you have decent job options (i.e. you have a worthwhile UG/Grad degree and can get a professional job) right now and are contemplating MSU with a full scholly.

As for ranking, there was a prof at MSU that claims he reverse engineered the US news formula to figure out where they stood the year after the rankings for the tier 3 were accidentally listed on USNews. He said the school dropped to the middle of the tier 3 the next year. In any event, it really doesn't matter the least bit whether MSU cracks the top 100 schools or not because t100 really doesn't mean jack. The same employers from Michigan that recruit there will continue to recruit there. It's not like it's going to become this national powerhouse as a result of jumping up in the rankings a bit.

I posted lot about MSU on this thread back in the day (staring on page 4): viewtopic.php?f=20&t=65727&start=75

It might be worth taking a quick look at if you are seriously contemplating MSU.

Ahh.. here's my old post re: the rankings:

tbullet7 wrote:They're on the rise.


Go State wrote:MSU is NOT "on the rise," but on the fall (maybe even to a tier 4 next year). Career services suggested trying to get into contact with employers that are going to university of michigan if you want a job at a bigger firm (maybe any job for many people) and below is an article written by a professor here that recommended MSU grads take non-law jobs when they graduate or just lie on the survey to try to move us up a few ranks. He also mentions, based on his calculation (using the US news formula) the school has dropped to around the bottom half of the third tier.

Our U.S. News & World Report Ranking
and the Simple Thing You (Yeah, You!) Can Do to Help It
Foolish though they may be, the U.S. News & World Report law school rankings affect you.
People rely on them, even if they shouldn't. A higher ranking makes it easier for MSU to recruit
talented students and faculty, and easier for MSU graduates to get good jobs. Like it or not, the
value of your degree is linked to our ranking.
You might not appreciate, however, the extent to which the converse is true: you can affect our
ranking. It is crucial that you understand the tremendous good—or damage—you can do to the
school, and to the value of your degree, through a couple of simple decisions.
Before I get to how you can help, I'll give some background on our ranking this year.
U.S. News places the country's 184 fully accredited law schools into three groups: the Top 100,
Tier 3, and Tier 4. Every year, using the limited data that U.S. News releases, I reverse-engineer
the rankings as best I can.1 While U.S. News does not rank schools within Tiers 3 and 4, I can
estimate where in the tier we are. This year, we ranked near the middle of Tier 3—a twelvenotch
drop from last year, when we were near the top of Tier 3.

What pulled us down? Nothing that we did—it was that U.S. News changed its formula.
Previously, U.S. News only counted full-time students when it looked at the 1L class's median
LSAT and GPA. This year, for the first time, they included part-timers too. This lowered our
medians, as it did for every other school in the country with a significant part-time program. Our
performance in the other categories was steady, with no significant net change.2
Now, what's this about how you (yeah, you!) can make a big difference? Two things,
relating to U.S. News's indefensibly foolish "employed 9 months after graduation" number.
First, U.S. News counts you as "employed" nine months after graduation regardless of what sort
of job you have. If you have a law job, a non-law job, the same job you had while attending law
school part-time, you count as employed. You also count as employed if you are pursuing
another degree.
Every year, unfortunately, some of our graduates are unemployed nine months after graduation,
despite their efforts to find a job. Historically, some of these people reject non-law jobs, and hold
out for law-related ones. Obviously, it can be very hard for people to settle—even temporarily—
1 U.S. News publishes the data for 65.5% of the total ranking (reputation, employment, selectivity,
student:faculty ratio, and bar-passage rates). They provide other data from which I can estimate another 22.5%
(median LSAT and undergraduate GPA of the entering class). I ignore the remaining 12% (resources), for which
U.S. News publishes nothing. In a few months, I can get ABA numbers that will fill in most of these gaps. In the
meantime, though, on the basis of some data that U.S. News accidentally leaked last year, I can confirm that my
model is accurate enough to justify my conclusions. Anyone who is interested in going over the data or my
methodology in more detail should feel free to drop by my office.
2 The formula change had a similar effect on many other schools with part-time programs. Some random
examples: George Washington dropped from #20 to #28; Indiana–Indianapolis went from #68 to #87; Stetson
dropped out of the top 100 and into the third tier.
for non-law jobs after they have worked so hard to earn a degree. But you should know that
every person who makes that decision hurts our ranking. A lot. The U.S. News math means that,
on average at the margins, each such person drops us more than one whole notch in the
rankings. At the very least, to the extent that you have any choice in the matter, please consider
the full cost of your decisions after you graduate and that nine-month mark is rolling around.
Second, U.S. News assumes that 75% of the students listed as "unknown" are unemployed.
Every year, there are schools who jump way up or fall way down because of this. Three years
ago, for instance, we reported a low employment number for the 2004 class that kicked us into
the fourth tier. Wayne State reported a similarly devastating number two years ago. But
typically, these low numbers don't come from graduates who can't find work—they come from
schools who can't find graduates.
For whatever reason, many graduates don't maintain contact with us. Others don't respond when
we finally do track them down. As a result, our ranking suffers: on average at the margins, each
such person drops us roughly one notch in the rankings.
Under Dean Spoon's leadership, the Career Services Office has done a superb job of minimizing
our "unknown" number. Mathematically, our movement out of the fourth tier can be attributed
almost entirely to this effort. But that success comes with a cost—a tremendous expenditure of
resources and energy that diverts the Office from its core function of helping you get a good job.
So when you graduate and the Career Services Office inquires about your employment status,
please respond promptly, even if your job is not law related. Please also encourage your
classmates to respond, or do it for them and tell us what your missing classmates are up to.
I'd like to conclude by explaining why the employment numbers have such a big impact. The
main reason is that U.S. News uses normalized scores for each category. This means that, in
categories where the numbers are tightly packed, a little movement can go a long way.
The employment numbers are very, very tightly packed (the average employment rate in this
year's rankings was 94.6%). With little room for variation, tiny movements in our employment
numbers have a much bigger impact on our ranking than movement in any other category.
Consider it this way. The following tweaks would have a roughly equal effect on our ranking—a
few notches:
Raising our peer or practitioner reputation score (scale of 1-5) by 0.2.
Raising our median undergraduate GPA by 0.1.
Raising our median LSAT by 2 points.
Raising our "employment at nine months" number by 1.7%.
Reputation scores are hard to budge by 0.2; every single school tries every year to improve its
reputation score, but this year only two schools jumped by 0.2 or more. It is also difficult in the
short term to boost our median GPAs by 0.1, or LSATs by 2. Here too, we try to maximize these
numbers anyway, but it is challenging to move them by very much in a short time, not least
because we are at the mercy of many factors outside of our control.
By contrast, moving our employment number by 1.7% is easy. It could happen as a direct
result of individual decisions made by four or five graduates: to take a non-law job while
looking for a permanent law position, or just to let the Career Office know that they are
working. Moving us up a few notches—or keeping us from dropping a few notches—is in your
hands.
Let's make our numbers even better, and let's keep them up there. The rankings system is idiotic.
Please do your part to keep it from being any more idiotic, and harmful to you and your
classmates, than it has to be.

So MSU was 108, 12 spot drop = 120, doesn't look like they will be hitting top 100 anytime soon.
Last edited by Go State on Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

leap_your_bar
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Re: Michigan State

Postby leap_your_bar » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:52 pm

Thanks for the input go_state. Kinda ruined my night, but I know that wasn't your intention.
I really just want to go to WSU part-time and work, that way I won't have any debt. I can't see myself doing anything other than law...but I don't want to waste 40 grand. Truthfully, I'd be happy working 80 hours a week starting out of the gates at 50-60 grand.

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State

Postby Go State » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:36 am

leap_your_bar wrote:Thanks for the input go_state. Kinda ruined my night, but I know that wasn't your intention.
I really just want to go to WSU part-time and work, that way I won't have any debt. I can't see myself doing anything other than law...but I don't want to waste 40 grand. Truthfully, I'd be happy working 80 hours a week starting out of the gates at 50-60 grand.


Sorry about ruining your night (but I guess it's better than wasting 3 years and a good amount of money). Also, I won't sugar coat this, but it's really bad in Michigan in terms of jobs generally. Out of the people I still keep in touch with at MSU, none of them have post-graduation jobs lined up yet, and one of them is on law review. Even 3Ls in my class here at UM are struggling to find any paying post-graduation legal employment (I personally know several people that don't have anything yet, which is scary since most hiring in terms of post-graduation clerkships, larger/midsize law firms, and federal government already happened or is wrapping up). Hopefully things will pick up a lot by the time you graduate though (I just keep thinking to myself that things just have to pick up here soon with how long this recession has dragged on -- I would definitely think by 2014 things would be a lot better).

Best of luck.

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s0ph1e2007
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Re: Michigan State

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:38 am

The thing is with michigan state is that if you want a job in detroit youre better off with wayne state which is why michigan state is killing itself over its law school

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State

Postby Go State » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 am

TruHoosier wrote:It's ironic I posted this yesterday because I got an e-mail from them last night telling me I'd likely qualify for a 17.5k scholarship. I'm definitely applying - doubt I will go there though.

I'm originally from southern Michigan - like Edwardsburg/South Bend area. I don't live with my family anymore, but I am wondering if I could establish state residency there. That would would make MSU a pretty good deal - like 15k a year. And I wouldn't mind working in Michigan, as long as it's not Detroit area.

I couldn't find tuition cost for out-of-staters. You guys have any idea how much that is?

I haven't really looked at Wayne State. My four schools right now are IU-Indy, IU-Bloomington, Notre Dame and I guess MSU.

My numbers are 3.25 GPA/161 LSAT.


I don't think there is in-state tuition for MSU. Last I know of it was denied public funding and remains a private college (it's basically the "detroit college of law" now being called "MSU law").

Here's the website with the budget (and they don't list an in-state tuition discount): http://www.law.msu.edu/finaid/budgets-10-11.html

BTW- does anyone else find it mind blowing that cost of attendance is $50k /year at sticker? ... I recall this summer class I took before I left there was this 3L (I think the summer was his last semester) in my seminar who said he had $150k in debt as a result of attending MSU, and at first I started laughing out loud thinking he was joking, and then I realized that he was serious. Leaving a school like MSU with $150K in debt has to pretty scary.

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TruHoosier
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Re: Michigan State

Postby TruHoosier » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:34 am

Man, MSU must be really bad if it made a guy with the handle 'Go State' change to a UM avatar. :lol:

I'm for sure not going there now, after reading this thread. I think there was a very, very slight chance that I was going to go there before reading all this, but I'm just going to go to school in Indiana - probably IU Bloomington or IU Indy.

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homestyle28
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Re: Michigan State

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:06 am

Just to weigh in. I have a friend at Wayne right now, his 1st semester grades put him at the bottom of the top 20%. He got an unpaid gig for his 1l summer that turned into a paying gig this fall (his 2l fall) doing healthcare law at what he says is a decent size firm. His sense is that Wayne's in-state alumni network does a decent job securing top half of the class jobs w/o too much effort.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Michigan State

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:08 am

Go_State is right. I'll never understand all you people who latch onto the "xyz school is on the rise" nonsense. Michigan State is in an economically depressed state. Moving into the lower t100 isn't going to change that. It isn't going to allow them to gain a foothold in the Chicago market, or the New York market. Regardless of their ranking, they are who they are. It'll never be the best school in the state, and as a result, it can never truly be a regional power.

I mean Hofstra jumped like 15 places in the rankings. Does that make Hofstra a better investment all of a sudden? You think that really makes Hofstra grads more marketable than Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, hell even Brooklyn and Cardozo? NO!

Get a grip folks. Michigan State is what it is; an expensive t3 without a huge alumni network that will find you work in the circle 100 miles around the school if you do well.

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Rocketman11
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Re: Michigan State

Postby Rocketman11 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:37 am

Aqualibrium wrote:Go_State is right. I'll never understand all you people who latch onto the "xyz school is on the rise" nonsense. Michigan State is in an economically depressed state. Moving into the lower t100 isn't going to change that. It isn't going to allow them to gain a foothold in the Chicago market, or the New York market. Regardless of their ranking, they are who they are. It'll never be the best school in the state, and as a result, it can never truly be a regional power.

I mean Hofstra jumped like 15 places in the rankings. Does that make Hofstra a better investment all of a sudden? You think that really makes Hofstra grads more marketable than Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, hell even Brooklyn and Cardozo? NO!

Get a grip folks. Michigan State is what it is; an expensive t3 without a huge alumni network that will find you work in the circle 100 miles around the school if you do well.


I don't think anyone is advocating to go to MSU and pay sticker, first of all. They are very generous with scholarship money, as I said, and if you're right on that numbers border where you're looking at sticker for a rank 50-60 school or free ride to MSU... if you want to be in Michigan I honestly think MSU is a good option.

No it's not the best school in the state, but as we've said U of M grads tend to emigrate.

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Re: Michigan State

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:46 am

Rocketman11 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:Go_State is right. I'll never understand all you people who latch onto the "xyz school is on the rise" nonsense. Michigan State is in an economically depressed state. Moving into the lower t100 isn't going to change that. It isn't going to allow them to gain a foothold in the Chicago market, or the New York market. Regardless of their ranking, they are who they are. It'll never be the best school in the state, and as a result, it can never truly be a regional power.

I mean Hofstra jumped like 15 places in the rankings. Does that make Hofstra a better investment all of a sudden? You think that really makes Hofstra grads more marketable than Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, hell even Brooklyn and Cardozo? NO!

Get a grip folks. Michigan State is what it is; an expensive t3 without a huge alumni network that will find you work in the circle 100 miles around the school if you do well.


I don't think anyone is advocating to go to MSU and pay sticker, first of all. They are very generous with scholarship money, as I said, and if you're right on that numbers border where you're looking at sticker for a rank 50-60 school or free ride to MSU... if you want to be in Michigan I honestly think MSU is a good option.

No it's not the best school in the state, but as we've said U of M grads tend to emigrate.



I'm not trying to tell anyone not to go to MSU, I was just pointing out a hole in the silly "on the rise" theory people have. I've seen that tossed around about MSU and a few other schools since I've been a member of this site. The fact is the surrounding factors make it unlikely that the only thing that matters (job prospects) will change much at all regardless of what the school is ranked.

Like I said, Michigan State is what it is; an expensive t3 without a huge alumni network that will find you work in the circle 100 miles around the school if you do well. There is nothing wrong with going if you go with that understanding. Just don't delude yourself and believe that this "on the rise" nonsense changes anything.

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Rocketman11
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Re: Michigan State

Postby Rocketman11 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:57 am

Aqualibrium wrote: Just don't delude yourself and believe that this "on the rise" nonsense changes anything.


I agree with this for sure. Attend a school for what it is right then, as it wont go anywhere substantial in 3 years. I think MSU will probably settle in the mid-T2 but that won't be for a loooong time. Like think 2030

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TruHoosier
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Re: Michigan State

Postby TruHoosier » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:56 pm

Rocketman11 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:Go_State is right. I'll never understand all you people who latch onto the "xyz school is on the rise" nonsense. Michigan State is in an economically depressed state. Moving into the lower t100 isn't going to change that. It isn't going to allow them to gain a foothold in the Chicago market, or the New York market. Regardless of their ranking, they are who they are. It'll never be the best school in the state, and as a result, it can never truly be a regional power.

I mean Hofstra jumped like 15 places in the rankings. Does that make Hofstra a better investment all of a sudden? You think that really makes Hofstra grads more marketable than Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, hell even Brooklyn and Cardozo? NO!

Get a grip folks. Michigan State is what it is; an expensive t3 without a huge alumni network that will find you work in the circle 100 miles around the school if you do well.


I don't think anyone is advocating to go to MSU and pay sticker, first of all. They are very generous with scholarship money, as I said, and if you're right on that numbers border where you're looking at sticker for a rank 50-60 school or free ride to MSU... if you want to be in Michigan I honestly think MSU is a good option.

No it's not the best school in the state, but as we've said U of M grads tend to emigrate.


I'm right in that demographic - someone who will probably have to pay the sticker at a t40 school, but who could get a full ride or decent scholarship to a Tier 2 school or low Tier 3 school. Regardless, I am not going to Michigan State. I was just bringing it up for discussion.

People really have a lot of strong opinions about Michigan State. I got more PMs over this thread than I have gotten for anything I have posted on TLS.

Sounds like a lot of people who go to MSU are not happy with their decision. Take it for what it's worth.




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