Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Fordham for Sticker?

Yes
37
24%
Yes, but not for BigLaw
18
12%
No
98
64%
 
Total votes: 153

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Gotti
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Gotti » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:00 pm

MrAnon wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:
icouldbuyu wrote:I feel like most of the kids that go to HYS and CCN have no social skills, which will deff hinder their chances of getting a job.


Right. Then why don't firms just go back to high school and pick the 5 coolest kids to be associates? Maybe because they want the smartest kids. The kids at the 40th ranked law school are not that.



I'm sorry...I think me having an almost perfect undergraduate career and doing 90th percentile on a test that everyone studies for for about 3 months qualifies me as being smart even if I go to a school ranked 40. Not saying I am, but I really think that just because your stats may be 175/3.3 doesn't mean you're a genius. It means you got lucky on ONE test that matters a lot to schools and did below average at 4 years of school. Someone with almost a 4.0 after 4 years while working the entire time is most likely smarter. It's unfair but that's the way the world works.

Why do people think that if you got a 170+ with a below average UGPA you're going to be at the top of your class at a really good school? One test doesn't mean anything in regards to how well you're going to do in life

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Columbia Law
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Columbia Law » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:06 pm

RJ127 wrote:People, please. Do not let Columbia Law attempt to proliferate inaccurate information on this thread. Clearly, he has no experience with starting salaries at law firms across the nation. I have worked at three law firms in the past three years in Los Angeles and Orange County, CA and the file clerks are the only employees that make 35-40k. Paralegals are being brought in at almost $70k, Law Clerks make anywhere from $65-85k, and first year associates at my firm are brought in on the low end at $95k, upwards of $115k. And the firm I work at is mid-range in terms of prestige overall. I work with people who have graduated from Stanford and Columbia Law all the way down to Southwestern and Whittier College in California. It is purely inaccurate to believe that a law degree from Fordham would not enable a prospective attorney to make a comfortable high five figure/low six figure salary. We are all aware that you (Columbia Law) attended CLS. None of us here would ever scoff at your impressive accomplishments, but please do not let this arrogant "I went to the best school in NY state" attitude affect the quality/accuracy of information you post here. Especially when it is not backed up by a shred of empirical evidence or hard data points.


You're a 0L . I don't care about your garbage paralegal gig. It has nothing to do with finding a job as a lawyer (which I have: tons of shitlaw offers/govn't/ took midlaw job thru family connections). You have NO CLUE what you're talking about. If you think "file clerks are the only one's who make 35-40k," then I would LOVE to see your face when you're unemployed and 200k in debt.

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Ratchet Jackson
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Ratchet Jackson » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:11 pm

Columbia Law wrote:
RJ127 wrote:People, please. Do not let Columbia Law attempt to proliferate inaccurate information on this thread. Clearly, he has no experience with starting salaries at law firms across the nation. I have worked at three law firms in the past three years in Los Angeles and Orange County, CA and the file clerks are the only employees that make 35-40k. Paralegals are being brought in at almost $70k, Law Clerks make anywhere from $65-85k, and first year associates at my firm are brought in on the low end at $95k, upwards of $115k. And the firm I work at is mid-range in terms of prestige overall. I work with people who have graduated from Stanford and Columbia Law all the way down to Southwestern and Whittier College in California. It is purely inaccurate to believe that a law degree from Fordham would not enable a prospective attorney to make a comfortable high five figure/low six figure salary. We are all aware that you (Columbia Law) attended CLS. None of us here would ever scoff at your impressive accomplishments, but please do not let this arrogant "I went to the best school in NY state" attitude affect the quality/accuracy of information you post here. Especially when it is not backed up by a shred of empirical evidence or hard data points.


You're a 0L . I don't care about your garbage paralegal gig. It has nothing to do with finding a job as a lawyer (which I have: tons of shitlaw offers/govn't/ took midlaw job thru family connections). You have NO CLUE what you're talking about. If you think "file clerks are the only one's who make 35-40k," then I would LOVE to see your face when you're unemployed and 200k in debt.


You're right. I don't know what I am talking about. I have no experience doing payroll (which I do currently), no experience talking to partners at firms about hiring procedures (which I do currently), and no experience working at a law firm (which I do currently). Interesting how my previous post went completely over your head. I'll send you the hornbook version via PM shortly.

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Gotti
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Gotti » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:12 pm

Columbia Law wrote:
RJ127 wrote:People, please. Do not let Columbia Law attempt to proliferate inaccurate information on this thread. Clearly, he has no experience with starting salaries at law firms across the nation. I have worked at three law firms in the past three years in Los Angeles and Orange County, CA and the file clerks are the only employees that make 35-40k. Paralegals are being brought in at almost $70k, Law Clerks make anywhere from $65-85k, and first year associates at my firm are brought in on the low end at $95k, upwards of $115k. And the firm I work at is mid-range in terms of prestige overall. I work with people who have graduated from Stanford and Columbia Law all the way down to Southwestern and Whittier College in California. It is purely inaccurate to believe that a law degree from Fordham would not enable a prospective attorney to make a comfortable high five figure/low six figure salary. We are all aware that you (Columbia Law) attended CLS. None of us here would ever scoff at your impressive accomplishments, but please do not let this arrogant "I went to the best school in NY state" attitude affect the quality/accuracy of information you post here. Especially when it is not backed up by a shred of empirical evidence or hard data points.


You're a 0L . I don't care about your garbage paralegal gig. It has nothing to do with finding a job as a lawyer (which I have: tons of shitlaw offers/govn't/ took midlaw job thru family connections). You have NO CLUE what you're talking about. If you think "file clerks are the only one's who make 35-40k," then I would LOVE to see your face when you're unemployed and 200k in debt.



Wait so you're saying he's lying? He has given evidence to the effect of proving you wrong. I really think you're full of your elitist prick bullshit. Why are you trolling every single Fordham thread ever to be on TLS and saying the same bullshit over and over again? People who are AT Fordham have first hand experience that goes against what you're saying. We get your opinion, no one agrees, gtfo and stfu.

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Ratchet Jackson
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Ratchet Jackson » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:20 pm

Columbia Law wrote:
RJ127 wrote:People, please. Do not let Columbia Law attempt to proliferate inaccurate information on this thread. Clearly, he has no experience with starting salaries at law firms across the nation. I have worked at three law firms in the past three years in Los Angeles and Orange County, CA and the file clerks are the only employees that make 35-40k. Paralegals are being brought in at almost $70k, Law Clerks make anywhere from $65-85k, and first year associates at my firm are brought in on the low end at $95k, upwards of $115k. And the firm I work at is mid-range in terms of prestige overall. I work with people who have graduated from Stanford and Columbia Law all the way down to Southwestern and Whittier College in California. It is purely inaccurate to believe that a law degree from Fordham would not enable a prospective attorney to make a comfortable high five figure/low six figure salary. We are all aware that you (Columbia Law) attended CLS. None of us here would ever scoff at your impressive accomplishments, but please do not let this arrogant "I went to the best school in NY state" attitude affect the quality/accuracy of information you post here. Especially when it is not backed up by a shred of empirical evidence or hard data points.


You're a 0L . I don't care about your garbage paralegal gig. It has nothing to do with finding a job as a lawyer (which I have: tons of shitlaw offers/govn't/ took midlaw job thru family connections). You have NO CLUE what you're talking about. If you think "file clerks are the only one's who make 35-40k," then I would LOVE to see your face when you're unemployed and 200k in debt.


After re-reading, I'm going to assume that you thought I was making a general, blanket statement saying 'only file clerks make $35-40K' at firms. This is not what I meant; clerks at the firm I work at bring in that annual salary. Case in point, you can earn respectable money from graduating at schools ranked lower than CLS.

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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:25 pm

RJ127 wrote:
You're right. I don't know what I am talking about. I have no experience doing payroll (which I do currently), no experience talking to partners at firms about hiring procedures (which I do currently), and no experience working at a law firm (which I do currently). Interesting how my previous post went completely over your head. I'll send you the hornbook version via PM shortly.




Your experience is but a small piece of the picture. The bi-modal salary isn't a myth, it is a fact. Yes there are jobs out there that pay in the 70/80-100k range. The point is, there aren't that many (I think the problem people seem to have is they see "not that many" and think 10 or 15..."not that many many" may be a number in the hundreds or the low thousands, but the fact is, it's the minority). The majority of legal grads across the country end up making 160k or 50k or less. That's the way it works.

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Stringer6
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Stringer6 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:26 pm

He went to Columbia and struck out getting a BigLaw job. He went to an elite school and still had to turn to family connections for employment. (Keep in mind that this is nothing to get down on someone for, under normal circumstances.)

That pretty much explains all of his posts...other than the fact that he really enjoys talking about Fordham. He mentions that his brother goes to Fordham...maybe he is worried that his brother will outdo him coming out of a lower ranked school? I'd pay to be a fly on the wall during one of his psychotherapy appointments.

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Gotti
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Gotti » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:28 pm

Stringer6 wrote:He went to Columbia and struck out getting a BigLaw job. He went to an elite school and still had to turn to family connections for employment. (Keep in mind that this is nothing to get down on someone for, under normal circumstances.)

That pretty much explains all of his posts...other than the fact that he really enjoys talking about Fordham. He mentions that his brother goes to Fordham...maybe he is worried that his brother will outdo him coming out of a lower ranked school? I'd pay to be a fly on the wall during one of his psychotherapy appointments.



+1000 :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Ratchet Jackson
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Ratchet Jackson » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:29 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
RJ127 wrote:
You're right. I don't know what I am talking about. I have no experience doing payroll (which I do currently), no experience talking to partners at firms about hiring procedures (which I do currently), and no experience working at a law firm (which I do currently). Interesting how my previous post went completely over your head. I'll send you the hornbook version via PM shortly.




Your experience is but a small piece of the picture. The bi-modal salary isn't a myth, it is a fact. Yes there are jobs out there that pay in the 70/80-100k range. The point is, there aren't that many (I think the problem people seem to have is they see "not that many" and think 10 or 15..."not that many many" may be a number in the hundreds or the low thousands, but the fact is, it's the minority). The majority of legal grads across the country end up making 160k or 50k or less. That's the way it works.


Yes. I understand this point entirely. Columbia Law made a wildly inaccurate statement saying that unless you graduated in the top 5% of your class at Fordham, you were basically up the creek with no paddle, and I simply provided a counter example to that claim. There are jobs out there for graduates in the bottom 95% of a class that will pay more than "30-40k".

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Stringer6
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Stringer6 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:31 pm

Your experience is but a small piece of the picture. The bi-modal salary isn't a myth, it is a fact. Yes there are jobs out there that pay in the 70/80-100k range. The point is, there aren't that many (I think the problem people seem to have is they see "not that many" and think 10 or 15..."not that many many" may be a number in the hundreds or the low thousands, but the fact is, it's the minority). The majority of legal grads across the country end up making 160k or 50k or less. That's the way it works.


i didn't think this was a point of contention

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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:41 pm

Stringer6 wrote:
Your experience is but a small piece of the picture. The bi-modal salary isn't a myth, it is a fact. Yes there are jobs out there that pay in the 70/80-100k range. The point is, there aren't that many (I think the problem people seem to have is they see "not that many" and think 10 or 15..."not that many many" may be a number in the hundreds or the low thousands, but the fact is, it's the minority). The majority of legal grads across the country end up making 160k or 50k or less. That's the way it works.


i didn't think this was a point of contention



I'm new to this argument. I was just responding to the following statement:

RJ127 wrote:
People, please. Do not let Columbia Law attempt to proliferate inaccurate information on this thread. Clearly, he has no experience with starting salaries at law firms across the nation. I have worked at three law firms in the past three years in Los Angeles and Orange County, CA and the file clerks are the only employees that make 35-40k. Paralegals are being brought in at almost $70k, Law Clerks make anywhere from $65-85k, and first year associates at my firm are brought in on the low end at $95k, upwards of $115k. And the firm I work at is mid-range in terms of prestige overall. I work with people who have graduated from Stanford and Columbia Law all the way down to Southwestern and Whittier College in California. It is purely inaccurate to believe that a law degree from Fordham would not enable a prospective attorney to make a comfortable high five figure/low six figure salary. We are all aware that you (Columbia Law) attended CLS. None of us here would ever scoff at your impressive accomplishments, but please do not let this arrogant "I went to the best school in NY state" attitude affect the quality/accuracy of information you post here. Especially when it is not backed up by a shred of empirical evidence or hard data points.


Reading that in isolation made it seem like RJ127 believed his experience was the norm.

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Columbia Law
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Columbia Law » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:45 pm

Stringer6 wrote:He went to Columbia and struck out getting a BigLaw job. He went to an elite school and still had to turn to family connections for employment. (Keep in mind that this is nothing to get down on someone for, under normal circumstances.)

That pretty much explains all of his posts...other than the fact that he really enjoys talking about Fordham. He mentions that his brother goes to Fordham...maybe he is worried that his brother will outdo him coming out of a lower ranked school? I'd pay to be a fly on the wall during one of his psychotherapy appointments.


I didn't *have* to turn to family connections. I also bid in one specific area. I had multiple government offers and over 10 shitlaw offers. I wanted to stay in a specific area. My *elite* school did all of that for me. The family connection gets you the interview, not the offer. And even if I didn't have that family connection, I had multiple offers for shitlaw and PI. Wtf are you talking about?

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Ratchet Jackson
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Ratchet Jackson » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:45 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Stringer6 wrote:
Your experience is but a small piece of the picture. The bi-modal salary isn't a myth, it is a fact. Yes there are jobs out there that pay in the 70/80-100k range. The point is, there aren't that many (I think the problem people seem to have is they see "not that many" and think 10 or 15..."not that many many" may be a number in the hundreds or the low thousands, but the fact is, it's the minority). The majority of legal grads across the country end up making 160k or 50k or less. That's the way it works.


i didn't think this was a point of contention



I'm new to this argument. I was just responding to the following statement:

RJ127 wrote:
People, please. Do not let Columbia Law attempt to proliferate inaccurate information on this thread. Clearly, he has no experience with starting salaries at law firms across the nation. I have worked at three law firms in the past three years in Los Angeles and Orange County, CA and the file clerks are the only employees that make 35-40k. Paralegals are being brought in at almost $70k, Law Clerks make anywhere from $65-85k, and first year associates at my firm are brought in on the low end at $95k, upwards of $115k. And the firm I work at is mid-range in terms of prestige overall. I work with people who have graduated from Stanford and Columbia Law all the way down to Southwestern and Whittier College in California. It is purely inaccurate to believe that a law degree from Fordham would not enable a prospective attorney to make a comfortable high five figure/low six figure salary. We are all aware that you (Columbia Law) attended CLS. None of us here would ever scoff at your impressive accomplishments, but please do not let this arrogant "I went to the best school in NY state" attitude affect the quality/accuracy of information you post here. Especially when it is not backed up by a shred of empirical evidence or hard data points.


Reading that in isolation made it seem like RJ127 believed his experience was the norm.


I agree which is why I made a supplemental statement. I apologize for the confusion on that point.

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Columbia Law
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Columbia Law » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:46 pm

Gotti wrote:
Columbia Law wrote:
RJ127 wrote:People, please. Do not let Columbia Law attempt to proliferate inaccurate information on this thread. Clearly, he has no experience with starting salaries at law firms across the nation. I have worked at three law firms in the past three years in Los Angeles and Orange County, CA and the file clerks are the only employees that make 35-40k. Paralegals are being brought in at almost $70k, Law Clerks make anywhere from $65-85k, and first year associates at my firm are brought in on the low end at $95k, upwards of $115k. And the firm I work at is mid-range in terms of prestige overall. I work with people who have graduated from Stanford and Columbia Law all the way down to Southwestern and Whittier College in California. It is purely inaccurate to believe that a law degree from Fordham would not enable a prospective attorney to make a comfortable high five figure/low six figure salary. We are all aware that you (Columbia Law) attended CLS. None of us here would ever scoff at your impressive accomplishments, but please do not let this arrogant "I went to the best school in NY state" attitude affect the quality/accuracy of information you post here. Especially when it is not backed up by a shred of empirical evidence or hard data points.


You're a 0L . I don't care about your garbage paralegal gig. It has nothing to do with finding a job as a lawyer (which I have: tons of shitlaw offers/govn't/ took midlaw job thru family connections). You have NO CLUE what you're talking about. If you think "file clerks are the only one's who make 35-40k," then I would LOVE to see your face when you're unemployed and 200k in debt.



Wait so you're saying he's lying? He has given evidence to the effect of proving you wrong. I really think you're full of your elitist prick bullshit. Why are you trolling every single Fordham thread ever to be on TLS and saying the same bullshit over and over again? People who are AT Fordham have first hand experience that goes against what you're saying. We get your opinion, no one agrees, gtfo and stfu.


What are your experiences in the job market? All I see is a 0L with an unimpressive LSAT score.

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Columbia Law
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Columbia Law » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:47 pm

RJ127 wrote:
Columbia Law wrote:
RJ127 wrote:People, please. Do not let Columbia Law attempt to proliferate inaccurate information on this thread. Clearly, he has no experience with starting salaries at law firms across the nation. I have worked at three law firms in the past three years in Los Angeles and Orange County, CA and the file clerks are the only employees that make 35-40k. Paralegals are being brought in at almost $70k, Law Clerks make anywhere from $65-85k, and first year associates at my firm are brought in on the low end at $95k, upwards of $115k. And the firm I work at is mid-range in terms of prestige overall. I work with people who have graduated from Stanford and Columbia Law all the way down to Southwestern and Whittier College in California. It is purely inaccurate to believe that a law degree from Fordham would not enable a prospective attorney to make a comfortable high five figure/low six figure salary. We are all aware that you (Columbia Law) attended CLS. None of us here would ever scoff at your impressive accomplishments, but please do not let this arrogant "I went to the best school in NY state" attitude affect the quality/accuracy of information you post here. Especially when it is not backed up by a shred of empirical evidence or hard data points.


You're a 0L . I don't care about your garbage paralegal gig. It has nothing to do with finding a job as a lawyer (which I have: tons of shitlaw offers/govn't/ took midlaw job thru family connections). You have NO CLUE what you're talking about. If you think "file clerks are the only one's who make 35-40k," then I would LOVE to see your face when you're unemployed and 200k in debt.


You're right. I don't know what I am talking about. I have no experience doing payroll (which I do currently), no experience talking to partners at firms about hiring procedures (which I do currently), and no experience working at a law firm (which I do currently). Interesting how my previous post went completely over your head. I'll send you the hornbook version via PM shortly.


People also make it to the NFL. I'm talking statistically. It's not worth paying $200k for a very small shot to make over 30-40k.

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Stringer6
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Stringer6 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:00 pm

I didn't *have* to turn to family connections. I also bid in one specific area. I had multiple government offers and over 10 shitlaw offers. I wanted to stay in a specific area. My *elite* school did all of that for me. The family connection gets you the interview, not the offer. And even if I didn't have that family connection, I had multiple offers for shitlaw and PI. Wtf are you talking about?


okay, you didn't have to, you chose to.

your goal was biglaw, and you got government, "shitlaw," and PI offers. you failed to reach your goal. i'm sorry that happened, but the tone of your posts (to put it kindly) makes you seem very, very bitter.

People also make it to the NFL. I'm talking statistically.


is it your opinion that getting BigLaw, or any employment over 30-40k, coming from fordham is the equivalent making it to the NFL? that the odds are equivalent?

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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Stringer6 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:02 pm

"Columbia Law" is a student at Fordham.


that crossed my mind. i couldn't figure out why anyone would focus on a school so much if they didn't go there.

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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Ratchet Jackson » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:02 pm

Nightrunner wrote:OK, after some IP sniffing, and a fun (and enlightening) PM conversation, I've come to the conclusion that enough is enough.

"Columbia Law" is a student at Fordham. I have no idea how much (if any) of the personal information he has given you is factual. I suspect the answer is "not much," but frankly, I don't care. He's dead-on about bimodal salaries, but you should pretty much ignore the rest of his trolling.

Carry on.


Columbia Law pwn3d.

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Gotti
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Gotti » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:10 pm

Columbia Law wrote:What are your experiences in the job market? All I see is a 0L with an unimpressive LSAT score.


i was going to comment on this and say "all i see is a CLS grad with a mid(shit)law job," but I think this new information has to be taken into consideration:


Nightrunner wrote:OK, after some IP sniffing, and a fun (and enlightening) PM conversation, I've come to the conclusion that enough is enough.

"Columbia Law" is a student at Fordham. I have no idea how much (if any) of the personal information he has given you is factual. I suspect the answer is "not much," but frankly, I don't care. He's dead-on about bimodal salaries, but you should pretty much ignore the rest of his trolling.

Carry on.



LMFAO. Columbia Law pwnage.

PS nightrunner how the heck did you do that???

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Columbia Law
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Columbia Law » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:10 pm

It was fun while it lasted.

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Columbia Law
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Columbia Law » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:13 pm

Gotti wrote:
Columbia Law wrote:What are your experiences in the job market? All I see is a 0L with an unimpressive LSAT score.


i was going to comment on this and say "all i see is a CLS grad with a mid(shit)law job," but I think this new information has to be taken into consideration:


Nightrunner wrote:OK, after some IP sniffing, and a fun (and enlightening) PM conversation, I've come to the conclusion that enough is enough.

"Columbia Law" is a student at Fordham. I have no idea how much (if any) of the personal information he has given you is factual. I suspect the answer is "not much," but frankly, I don't care. He's dead-on about bimodal salaries, but you should pretty much ignore the rest of his trolling.

Carry on.



LMFAO. Columbia Law pwnage.

PS nightrunner how the heck did you do that???


He's a mod. He has access to that shit.

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Stringer6
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Stringer6 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:13 pm

It was fun while it lasted.


pretty masterful performance.

care to reveal your motives?

maybe you can give me a tour. lulz

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Columbia Law
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Columbia Law » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:15 pm

Stringer6 wrote:
It was fun while it lasted.


pretty masterful performance.

care to reveal your motives?

maybe you can give me a tour. lulz


I actually really enjoy the school so far. I obviously wouldn't have gone here if I didn't like it. A lot of the time I did it with a bunch of people from the school like before class or after.

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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby nygrrrl » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:16 pm

Columbia Law wrote:I actually really enjoy the school so far. I obviously wouldn't have gone here if I didn't like it. A lot of the time I did it with a bunch of people from the school like before class or after.

:lol: *claps*

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Columbia Law
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Re: Is Fordham Worth Sticker?

Postby Columbia Law » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:16 pm

Columbia Law wrote:
Stringer6 wrote:
It was fun while it lasted.


pretty masterful performance.

care to reveal your motives?

maybe you can give me a tour. lulz


I actually really enjoy the school so far. I obviously wouldn't have gone here if I didn't like it. A lot of the time I did it (posting) with a bunch of people from the school like before class or after.




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