UNC vs. Wake/W&L

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pokerlaw
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UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby pokerlaw » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:03 pm

NC Resident, most likely sticker, no debt. No problem staying in NC or VA.

Any reason to pay the extra money and select W&L/Wake over UNC?

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moandersen
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby moandersen » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:49 pm

pokerlaw wrote:NC Resident, most likely sticker, no debt. No problem staying in NC or VA.

Any reason to pay the extra money and select W&L/Wake over UNC?


I think this is something to be contemplated if you get accepted to all three. Going off the top of my head, you are WL at all of them judging by the numbers in your profile.

However, UNC in state would be pretty hard to pass up if you were paying sticker at all three schools you listed.

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jwrash
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby jwrash » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:50 pm

you are likely in at UNC as a resident...probably WL at Wake/W&L

tarheel87
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby tarheel87 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:37 pm

Probably my three favorite schools out of all the ones I applied to, so I feel especially obliged to tackle this one.

In terms of job prospects I would be shocked if there was much in the way of real difference between any of the three of them. However, if you want to stay in NC don't bother with W&L, although they have a fantastic alumni base here (my buddy's dad went there and I've heard ALL about it haha) it just wouldn't make sense versus an in-state school. While all great schools there is certainly no guarantee of obtaining a job out of any of them though ITE.

Margin boost in prestige at W&L I'd say, although UNC and Wake have great reputational ratings as well.

Quite possibly the three prettiest campuses I have ever seen, so you're good there no matter what. W&L has the most breathtaking campus I've ever seen and Lexington is pretty cool but I could see it getting a little old after a semester or two. Chapel Hill is one of the coolest towns in the country, very college towny. Winston-Salem is cool and something of a mix between Lexington and Chapel Hill, but nothing you haven't seen before (not half as bad as it's been made out to be on TLS though). None of the actual law school buildings themselves were terribly impressive, but special mention to UNC's being in particularly bad shape, which is ridiculous on such an awesome campus.

Other random notes off the top of my head:

I don't know about the professors at UNC, but the faculty as Wake is top notch and I really enjoyed both classes I sat in on at W&L.

If you want public interest, UNC is probably the best choice.

In terms of sports, UNC obviously is by far the best in those terms.

Wake and W&L are especially (or supposed to be) non-competitive and collegial (sp?), not sure about W&L but I can vouch for Wake on that one. Although the more I think about it the more alike the two schools are in general so it probably comes down to location.

Also, W&L is trending down in rankings, for whatever that's worth (not much). I doubt Wake will move up or down much and UNC might slide back a few spots to the low 30s where it usually is (I've heard the law school has funding issues, but I doubt its much of an issue here)

I don't know, there's my brain dump though. The money issue is a personal decision, so visit all three. Three awesome schools, like I said my three favorites, but you aren't a shoo-in for any of them so don't count your chickens yet.
Last edited by tarheel87 on Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby Grizz » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:41 pm

tarheel87 wrote:It's worth noting that W&L is trending down in rankings, for whatever that's worth (probably not much). I doubt Wake will move up or down much and UNC might slide back a few spots to the low 30s where it usually is (I've heard the law school has funding issues, but I doubt its much of an issue here).


Not worth noting. Rankings are fairly useless below the top 20ish schools. Plus rankings usually remain about the same. Small movements mean nothing.

tarheel87
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby tarheel87 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:49 pm

rad law wrote:
tarheel87 wrote:It's worth noting that W&L is trending down in rankings, for whatever that's worth (probably not much). I doubt Wake will move up or down much and UNC might slide back a few spots to the low 30s where it usually is (I've heard the law school has funding issues, but I doubt its much of an issue here).


Not worth noting. Rankings are fairly useless below the top 20ish schools. Plus rankings usually remain about the same. Small movements mean nothing.


You're absolutely right, poor phrasing on my part. I wrote a sloppy little rundown in a few minutes. I did want to mention it though for the 0Ls (and everyone else) who freak out about such things.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby Dick Whitman » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:59 pm

tarheel87 wrote:In terms of sports, UNC obviously is by far the best in those terms.


Wake has been far better in football than UNC-CH over the past decade. Given the massive NCAA investigation currently ongoing at UNC-CH, I would expect UNC-CH's football success during the OP's tenure to range somewhere between that of Wake Forest's and W&L's.

PDL
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby PDL » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:28 am

.
Last edited by PDL on Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kabuo
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby Kabuo » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:47 am

PDL wrote:I'm actually in the same boat as the original poster. Finishing up my UNC application now, should have it submitted by the end of the week. What would you all put my chances at at Wake Forest, UNC, and W+M?

NC resident, UNC undegrad, 3.44 GPA, 168 LSAT.


Pretty easily, in, in, and in.

IhateFoxHunting
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby IhateFoxHunting » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:00 pm

All three are good schools, and cost would be one of my biggest concerns. If you take out 100k in loans to attend any of them you are one ballsy person.

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jwrash
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby jwrash » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:41 pm

IhateFoxHunting wrote:All three are good schools, and cost would be one of my biggest concerns. If you take out 100k in loans to attend any of them you are one ballsy person.

UNC in-state is like 15-16k/yr...

CanadianWolf
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:44 pm

No is the answer to the OP's question.

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Merr
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby Merr » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:17 pm

jwrash wrote:
IhateFoxHunting wrote:All three are good schools, and cost would be one of my biggest concerns. If you take out 100k in loans to attend any of them you are one ballsy person.

UNC in-state is like 15-16k/yr...


This. You would either have to have family expenses, or be living high on the hog to be taking out 100k+ while getting UNC instate tuition.

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2014
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby 2014 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:50 pm

As a current undergrad who works as a legal assistant, there is one more legal assistant at the small firm I work for who is a 3L at W&L. You know things are not great when between 2L and 3L when they are supposed to be getting jobs that lead to careers, they are working as legal assistants with undergrads. Speaking with her, she has pretty much confirmed that jobs are few and far between for people at W&L unless you are willing to work shitlaw in richmond.

Just some anecdotal evidence against paying more for W&L.

savagecheater
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby savagecheater » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:58 pm

UNC is tcr here.

Look - $150k+ vs. ~60k+.

In-state, you're a resident, have connections, etc. YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY BE EMPLOYED AFTER 3 YEARS.

PirateCap'n
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby PirateCap'n » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:17 pm

Merr wrote:
jwrash wrote:
IhateFoxHunting wrote:All three are good schools, and cost would be one of my biggest concerns. If you take out 100k in loans to attend any of them you are one ballsy person.

UNC in-state is like 15-16k/yr...


This. You would either have to have family expenses, or be living high on the hog to be taking out 100k+ while getting UNC instate tuition.


You also have to add in between $12-15,000 for living costs (rent, food, travel, etc.), so it ends up being closer to $25-30,000 per year. Chapel Hill is a bit more expensive than Winston for living costs. It really wouldn't be that crazy to end up with $90,000 debt coming out of there. I turned down sticker at UNC for Wake (with a decent scholarship) for what it's worth.

IhateFoxHunting
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby IhateFoxHunting » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:33 pm

jwrash wrote:
IhateFoxHunting wrote:All three are good schools, and cost would be one of my biggest concerns. If you take out 100k in loans to attend any of them you are one ballsy person.

UNC in-state is like 15-16k/yr...


Thanks Captain Obvious :) j/k

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Merr
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby Merr » Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:36 am

PirateCap'n wrote:
You also have to add in between $12-15,000 for living costs (rent, food, travel, etc.), so it ends up being closer to $25-30,000 per year. Chapel Hill is a bit more expensive than Winston for living costs. It really wouldn't be that crazy to end up with $90,000 debt coming out of there. I turned down sticker at UNC for Wake (with a decent scholarship) for what it's worth.


Maybe, though for what it's worth I was paying only $20/mo less in Greensboro (comparable to Winston) then I pay here. (both under $500/mo for rent+utilities). Also buses are free here so that makes my travel budget negligible (and no airfare due to being in-state). Maybe I am just cheap, but if you want to avoid costs you can definitely come out well under 90K (assuming tuition doesn't skyrocket).

Aqualibrium
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:54 am

2014 wrote:As a current undergrad who works as a legal assistant, there is one more legal assistant at the small firm I work for who is a 3L at W&L. You know things are not great when between 2L and 3L when they are supposed to be getting jobs that lead to careers, they are working as legal assistants with undergrads. Speaking with her, she has pretty much confirmed that jobs are few and far between for people at W&L unless you are willing to work shitlaw in richmond.

Just some anecdotal evidence against paying more for W&L.



Care to flesh that out more? Do you know her approximate grade range? Can you define "shitlaw?"

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2014
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby 2014 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:12 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
2014 wrote:As a current undergrad who works as a legal assistant, there is one more legal assistant at the small firm I work for who is a 3L at W&L. You know things are not great when between 2L and 3L when they are supposed to be getting jobs that lead to careers, they are working as legal assistants with undergrads. Speaking with her, she has pretty much confirmed that jobs are few and far between for people at W&L unless you are willing to work shitlaw in richmond.

Just some anecdotal evidence against paying more for W&L.



Care to flesh that out more? Do you know her approximate grade range? Can you define "shitlaw?"

I'd put her at just above median. She is too resourceful and hard working to be below that, but I'm unwilling to guess top x% knowing how competitive schools are.

Shitlaw in this case would be a small firm with 3-4 named partners, a few associates and some paralegals. An entry level job there would be on the low end of the bimodal graph that we've all seen, meaning ~40-50k. Certainly better than unemployment, but not what someone going to a tier 1 school expects. And to reiterate because I see that I didn't explicitly mention it, but OCI was extremely hard on them this year. Even as a school with one of the smallest 1L classes, the opportunities just aren't there. W&L graduates are probably going to fill the small firm positions throughout Virginia for the forseeable future, and that just isn't a good decision if you are 150k in debt.

Aqualibrium
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Re: UNC vs. Wake/W&L

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:11 am

2014 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
2014 wrote:As a current undergrad who works as a legal assistant, there is one more legal assistant at the small firm I work for who is a 3L at W&L. You know things are not great when between 2L and 3L when they are supposed to be getting jobs that lead to careers, they are working as legal assistants with undergrads. Speaking with her, she has pretty much confirmed that jobs are few and far between for people at W&L unless you are willing to work shitlaw in richmond.

Just some anecdotal evidence against paying more for W&L.



Care to flesh that out more? Do you know her approximate grade range? Can you define "shitlaw?"

I'd put her at just above median. She is too resourceful and hard working to be below that, but I'm unwilling to guess top x% knowing how competitive schools are.

Shitlaw in this case would be a small firm with 3-4 named partners, a few associates and some paralegals. An entry level job there would be on the low end of the bimodal graph that we've all seen, meaning ~40-50k. Certainly better than unemployment, but not what someone going to a tier 1 school expects. And to reiterate because I see that I didn't explicitly mention it, but OCI was extremely hard on them this year. Even as a school with one of the smallest 1L classes, the opportunities just aren't there. W&L graduates are probably going to fill the small firm positions throughout Virginia for the forseeable future, and that just isn't a good decision if you are 150k in debt.


Hmmm that sounds pretty rough. I'd assume that means W&M, Richmond, & Mason are facing similar issues.




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