YHSCCN Differences

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notanumber
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby notanumber » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:27 pm

sophia.olive wrote:Is stanford a public school like berk?

university of california stanford


No. Unlike UC Berkeley, Stanford is merely a Jr. University.

OP: I chose Yale for a number of reasons including job placement, curricular flexibility, real non-grades, the esoterically academic feeling of the place, and its proximity to New York.

If one is admitted to all of HYS there are good reasons to chose any of the three. But they all have very different aesthetics and vibes. Just visit the schools and make a decision based upon that impression.

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BruceWayne
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:34 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I really don't see why TLS likes to group Columbia, Chicago, and NYU with HYS. The interesting thing is that the only top 14 subdivision that you ever hear about in real life conversation is the HYS group. This whole "top t6" "MVP" "lower top 14" etc. thing is essentially just TLS vernacular. There's a reason for this; HYS offer opportunities that are considerably different than all of the schools behind them in a legion of different areas. This is particularly true for jobs other than NYC big law. I really don't know how you can group CCN with HYS at all for anything outside of NYC big law. It really seems like your grades and desired work location are what makes the difference between top 14 schools that aren't HYS. Even with top grades at "CCN" it seems like the opportunities are just different than those at HYS. The clerkship placement difference along with the alumni in high ranking positions really highlights the difference.

There are reasons for the breaks, and yes, the opportunities at CCN are different than those at HYS. Clerkship and alumni placement drop off significantly, but they're still better odds than at any of the lower T14. Also, as you noted yourself, if you want NYC biglaw you're advantaged to going to CCN over the lower T14.

The tiers are noted on TLS because there are real differences, fine enough to not matter in a lot of circumstances, but important enough to matter to someone making an actual hard decision. In reality it plays out something like this:

HYS >>>>> CCN >> BMVP > DCG >>> Everyone else

Yeah, it's a bigger difference between HYS and CCN than elsewhere in the T14, but that doesn't mean there aren't any differences otherwise. In some situations the differences below HYS are so small that all you need to know is HYS >>>>> rest of T14, but not everything is that simple.


The bolded is my point. For example, let's say you want a COA clerkship and you are at Columbia vs. Duke. The reality is that you're basically going to need to be in the top 5 percent at either to have much of a shot at any of the circuits that aren't the 5th. If you're gunning for Williams and Connolly you will need about top 5 percent whether you go to Columbia or UVA. If you want to work at Munger you will need something like top 10 percent from NYU, you probably need top 5 at GULC. You have a shot at all of the aforementioned positions with top 1/3 from HYS (which doesn't even exist at Yale so basically you have a shot with some "H's"). That's a big damn difference.

The demarcations that you all are highlighting for the schools outside of HYS all have qualifiers like "If it's NYC", "if it's not a clerkship" etc. In other words you're having to strain and laser in on very specific instances to make out substantial differences. Even then, when a student from one of those schools versus the other ( 2 non HYS top 14) has better grades the demarcation vanishes. You simply don't have come up with all of these qualifiers for HYS. That's the reason why you hear academics, firms, pi employers, even layman, refer to HYS separately from the rest of the top 14. As strange as this is to say about a prestige focused website like TLS, it might actually under emphasize the strength of HYS, and it over emphasizes the differences between the other schools.

As far as the 70+ percentage NYC biglaw placement thing from NYU/CLS, as I've learned NYC biglaw may actually be the easiest desirable job to get from any top 14. The reality is that a lot of why NYU/CLS place so highly into those jobs is because their students want them more than any others. If all of the HYS students decided they wanted NYC biglaw, they would get it over NYU/CLS grads with no problem. They don't put a lot of people into biglaw compared to NYU/CLS because many of their students are simply going for harder to get jobs. Notice how much higher a percentage of students go to DC firms from HYS than the other schools. There's a reason for that (that's particularly interesting when you look at Stanford and where it's located). Look at the clerkship numbers, HYS grads are not winding up in NY big law like CN one's are because they don't want it. Realistically this premise, to a much lesser extent, even applies to schools below HYS. Most kids at Boalt aren't thinking about NYC, a lot of people hear at UVA would much rather be in DC or the South. If students from those schools would start pining for NY firms like they do for other jobs you'd see a boost in their big law placement too. I'm not saying it would be just as good as CCN, but it would significantly increase.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:44 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:In some situations the differences below HYS are so small that all you need to know is HYS >>>>> rest of T14, but not everything is that simple.

The bolded is my point.

Then you agree that not everything is that simple.

BruceWayne wrote:The demarcations that you all are highlighting for the schools outside of HYS all have qualifiers like "If it's NYC", "if it's not a clerkship" etc. In other words you're having to strain and laser in on very specific instances to make out substantial differences.

No, you're just having to point out where the differences actually are, and that they're not universal. It's not "straining", it's just knowing the difference between where it does matter and where it doesn't.

BruceWayne wrote:You simply don't have come up with all of these qualifiers for HYS. That's the reason why you hear academics, firms, pi employers, even layman, refer to HYS separately from the rest of the top 14. As strange as this is to say about a prestige focused website like TLS, it might actually under emphasize the strength of HYS, and it over emphasizes the differences between the other schools.

I really doubt that TLS underemphasizes the strength of HYS. Everyone knows that they're HYS and what they're worth. The other demarcations are useful, but they're all below HYS, and everyone knows that. You're arguing basically that because HYS is so much better we shouldn't have breakdowns below them.

But we should, because the breakdowns are still important for people who aren't going to HYS.

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AreJay711
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:57 am

The demarcations that you all are highlighting for the schools outside of HYS all have qualifiers like "If it's NYC", "if it's not a clerkship" etc. In other words you're having to strain and laser in on very specific instances to make out substantial differences.


Yea, they don't just blow the rest of the top 14 out of the water but other things equal you might as well take the better chances at CCN even if you don't think the particular situation will apply to you just in case. You still need to show up and get good grades but there is a chance that everything WILL be equal and it comes down to whether you attended Chicago or UVA. It would really suck to not consider particular circumstances and then end up missing out on your dream job. I'm not a very strong candidate for CCN but I know if I luck into Chicago or NYU I'd take it in a heartbeat.

TheTallOne0602
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby TheTallOne0602 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:44 am

As far as financial aid goes at YHS, I know it is only need based, but how much "need" do you have to have? Also, Yale apparently has a great long term assistance program. Why is it great? What does it do that is so awesome?

I am certainly not guarunteed to get into any of the three, but in case I do, I wouldn't mind knowing.

Renzo
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby Renzo » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:34 pm

TheTallOne0602 wrote:As far as financial aid goes at YHS, I know it is only need based, but how much "need" do you have to have? Also, Yale apparently has a great long term assistance program. Why is it great? What does it do that is so awesome?

I am certainly not guarunteed to get into any of the three, but in case I do, I wouldn't mind knowing.

All the top schools have loan repayment programs that pay your loans if you take certain types of qualifying government or public interest legal jobs. Yale does the same, but isn't contingent on you taking a job in the public interest, or even one that uses your law degree at all.

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BruceWayne
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:36 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
The demarcations that you all are highlighting for the schools outside of HYS all have qualifiers like "If it's NYC", "if it's not a clerkship" etc. In other words you're having to strain and laser in on very specific instances to make out substantial differences.


Yea, they don't just blow the rest of the top 14 out of the water but other things equal you might as well take the better chances at CCN even if you don't think the particular situation will apply to you just in case. You still need to show up and get good grades but there is a chance that everything WILL be equal and it comes down to whether you attended Chicago or UVA. It would really suck to not consider particular circumstances and then end up missing out on your dream job. I'm not a very strong candidate for CCN but I know if I luck into Chicago or NYU I'd take it in a heartbeat.


Unless your dream job is working in a NYC/Chicago firm choosing to attend UVA over Chicago will not cause you to miss out on your "dream job". Getting below a 3.3 at UVA or getting below a 177 at Chicago will be the determinative factor in the answer to that question. This isn't Harvard vs. Georgetown.

TheTallOne0602 wrote:As far as financial aid goes at YHS, I know it is only need based, but how much "need" do you have to have? Also, Yale apparently has a great long term assistance program. Why is it great? What does it do that is so awesome?

I am certainly not guaranteed to get into any of the three, but in case I do, I wouldn't mind knowing.


Harvard's website has pretty detailed information on this. The TLS LRAP profiles have good info as well. There great because if you have true need, you will get substantial grant assistance. Yale's COAP and HLS LIPP don't have an income ceiling, unlike a lot of other schools like UVA and Duke etc.

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rayiner
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby rayiner » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:53 pm

Last I checked, CLS and NYU were at 70% of OCI participants getting something, so probably 60% overall. This is a big step up from the rest of the T14, which was more like 40-50%, but a dramatic drop down from Y/S which as far as anyone knows is near 100%.

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vanwinkle
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:59 pm

TheTallOne0602 wrote:As far as financial aid goes at YHS, I know it is only need based, but how much "need" do you have to have? Also, Yale apparently has a great long term assistance program. Why is it great? What does it do that is so awesome?

I am certainly not guarunteed to get into any of the three, but in case I do, I wouldn't mind knowing.

I can't speak to Yale's loan assistance, but here's how Harvard's LIPP works as I understand it:

1) Covers not only public service work, but also private work as long as the work is "law-related" and fits within the income profiles described below.
2) If you leave your public sector job after a couple years to go to a law firm, you don't have to repay any benefits you earned.
3) You can enter LIPP at any time (if you work for a law firm for 3-4 years, you can leave and go to work for public service, and enter LIPP then).
4) Covers not just law school loans, but up to $30,000 in undergrad loans and $10,000 in bar prep loans.
5) Covers not just federally backed loans but also private loans up to the cost of attendance, meaning you could take private loans at a lower interest rate than the federal loan system.
6) If your income is below $44,000/year, the way LIPP works is they write a check that covers your entire loan payment for the year; that means they're actually paying down your principal, and (if you're on a 10-year repayment schedule) they'll repay your loan entirely over 10 years; unlike IBR there's nothing left owed that has to be forgiven at the end of the 10 years. If you leave after 3 years to go to a firm, your debt has actually been reduced by 3 years' worth of full loan payments.
7) If your income is above $44,000/year, they calculate how much you have to contribute as a % of your income over $44,000/year, but they still pay the full remaining amount. (At some certain point, the % over $44,000 you'd have to pay becomes equal to the loan amount and you have to repay the loans yourself, which is what keeps people with BigLaw jobs from using LIPP to repay loans.)

In comparison, some lower T14 schools have LRAPs, but they have big differences:

1) Newly revised LRAPs require you to use IBR and then make your IBR payment for you. IBR can lower your payment to a point that it may not pay down your principal; if the loan payments never pay down the $180,000 you owe, you could stay in public service for 10 years and have the debt forgiven by the government in the end, but if you wanted to move to a firm before then, you'd be on the hook for the full $180,000 when you did.
2) IBR only covers qualifying federally backed loans, so LRAPs using IBR don't cover private loans. Other LRAPs may also only cover qualifying federal loan programs as well.
3) Many LRAPs only cover law school loans, and not any undergrad or bar prep loans.
4) Many LRAPs have a time window where you must enter public service within 1-2 years of graduating or completing a clerkship; if you go work for a firm for 2-3 years and then move into public service, you're not eligible for their LRAP anymore.
5) Most LRAPs don't cover private-sector employment at all, even if it's low-income enough to qualify; you either have to find qualifying public sector work or find a private-sector job that pays enough to cover your loans.
6) Some LRAPs may require you to stay in public service for a minimum number of years and repay their contributions if you leave early.
7) I think schools are in the process of modifying this, but I've seen LRAPs with income caps as low as $35,000 before you start having to contribute a % of your income.

That can give you an idea of what the big differences are.

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AreJay711
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:11 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
The demarcations that you all are highlighting for the schools outside of HYS all have qualifiers like "If it's NYC", "if it's not a clerkship" etc. In other words you're having to strain and laser in on very specific instances to make out substantial differences.


Yea, they don't just blow the rest of the top 14 out of the water but other things equal you might as well take the better chances at CCN even if you don't think the particular situation will apply to you just in case. You still need to show up and get good grades but there is a chance that everything WILL be equal and it comes down to whether you attended Chicago or UVA. It would really suck to not consider particular circumstances and then end up missing out on your dream job. I'm not a very strong candidate for CCN but I know if I luck into Chicago or NYU I'd take it in a heartbeat.


Unless your dream job is working in a NYC/Chicago firm choosing to attend UVA over Chicago will not cause you to miss out on your "dream job". Getting below a 3.3 at UVA or getting below a 177 at Chicago will be the determinative factor in the answer to that question. This isn't Harvard vs. Georgetown.



I was more along the line that top 10% Chicago > top 10% UVA. Then again it depends what your dream job is. For mine, it absolutely would make a difference, other things constant, even if it is certainly achievable from UVA.

DeweyWins
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Re: YHSCCN Differences

Postby DeweyWins » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:26 pm

rayiner wrote:Last I checked, CLS and NYU were at 70% of OCI participants getting something, so probably 60% overall. .

That sounds about right. I know that only 40 or so people didn't do EIP this year at CLS.

So assuming a c/o about 400, and assuming 70% got something at OCI, that means 63% of the total class will be in biglaw this summer.




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