Law School or Not?

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:33 am

nStiver wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Amiricanmade wrote:
gdane5 wrote:I dont understand why youre even "preparing for the worst". Thats such a negative thing to do. Aim high and adjust your expectations accordingly. Take care of the LSAT first.



I'm just a pessimist. I just wanna know worst case scenario i'll be ok. The thing is, if i want to go to law school i would be a Business Management W/Emphasis on Legal Studies, if not I'd declare Accounting. Accounting would result in my GPA being a bit lower -since it's hard as puck-(which doesn't matter since i don't have to get into law school) but i don't wanna have even a .1 lower GPA if i wanna go to law school. I dunno i'm just confused and scared. I know of some friends who graduated from Southwestern and now have a corp job, not sure where they graduated in their class and if they used their school for job prospects of connections.


puck? Don't you mean 'fuck'?

Anyways, it's beyond me why anybody would do legal studies for UG. It means you're going to be a lawyer who knows a lot about the 'science of law' but not much else... and law schools discourage this anyways - not to mention that your LSAT will SUUUUUUUUUCK which translates to your FUUUUUUUUUCKED. Besides, it also depends on what you like to do and what type of lawyer you want to be. For instance, you need an engineering or hard science degree to sit for the patent bar.

And, as far as worst case scenario: You'll be homeless.

If you want to make money - go be an investment banker or something.


I don't think the fact that someone chooses to study "legal studies" or whatever as an undergrad means that their LSAT will suck. Sure, its great to have a math or science degree, but unless you have done a lot of reading in your day, the LSAT is going to be a challenge for you. I was a history major, and I took some undergrad Constitutional Law courses. They were damn interesting and I don't regret it one bit. I actually think that all the reading required by my history degree and the con law classes was a big help for me on the LSAT: I was already a pretty fast reader. Slow reader=fucked on the LSAT.

I think that math and science people are probably better at logic games, but that's it.

I think having a math or science or "hard" degree does make someone more interesting as a prospective law student though, it shows that the applicant has some applicable knowledge about the world outside of the traditional liberal arts curriculum.


I'm glad you decided to take time to point out something I already answered... but fine, I'll go into it a bit deeper without citing an academic source again:

Statistically, you're going to do worse as a "pre law" major than a hard-science or economics major. Numbers don't lie. Telling yourself anything different is like telling yourself that drinking mercury and pissing blood are not correlated or.. thinking to yourself that stabbing your face with a rusted knife and getting tetanus/"lockjaw" is a coincidence.

The OP is going into Business - and that's pretty decent since there are multiple exit options other than law. If you're a pre-law and bomb the LSAT ITE, you went to school for 4 years to become homeless. There's no debate in that. You're more worthless than a Poli. Sci. major and should you want to go for a MBA, well - you'll be hardpressed to explain your B.A. (for the record, I am a Poli. Sci. major.. well, one of my majors and i'd be FUCKED if I only had that to rely on.)

And, if you're too slow to read the LSAT at the late-junior/senior level - you don't belong in a university unless you have a disability, which then is understandable. From the PT's I've done.. conlaw hasn't helped me for anything, unless you're missing those crucial analytical skills you learn in majors dealing with the hard science, math, and economics.

Amiricanmade
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby Amiricanmade » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:57 am

observationalist wrote:
Amiricanmade wrote:Great site and thanks for the info. I'm taking a look at Western State and the site indicates 66 our of the 105 work in the private sector (what do they do, no clue) but that's a decent number seeing as how 66/105 students weren't top 5% yet they still have a job-trying to optimistic?

Also, when it says that 29% of the graduates were not employed after 9 months, could this be because they didn't pass the bar and perhaps they are studying for the bar? Or are these the # of people who graduated and passed the bar?


This is what I would make of the available information on Western State (sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this):

For the Class of 2008, a full 29% of the class was reported as being unemployed (irrespective of whether they passed the July 2008 bar exam). That number is very high for an ABA-approved law school, considering that any job would have counted a person as employed. Of the 66 graduates who reported being employed, you need to recognize the variety of jobs they could have obtained. This group includes anyone employed full-time or part-time, paid or unpaid, in any legal or non-legal position, so long as it is in a for-profit business (it does not include public defender jobs, an area in which the school advertises as a strength within the OC). Among other jobs, this category can include bartending parttime, temp work a few hours a week, returning to a job held prior to law school such as tutoring, working for a parent of family member in a non-law-related field, or serving coffee at Starbucks. Also, in 2008 the job market was significantly better than it is now, and we are unlikely to see a return to 2008 hiring levels for a very long time. It is likely that more graduates in the Class of 2010 will find nonlegal employment than in 2008 given how saturated the legal market is right now.

I understand many applicants are cautious about assuming that graduates end up in nonlegal jobs, and you might be inclined to fill in the gaps with more favorable jobs. But per this article I found here: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1 the same Class of 2008 achieved just a 65% bar passage rate of those taking the CA bar. Given that only 65% passed the bar but 70.8% of the class is counted as employed 9 months out from graduation (after bar results come out), this means we can say with near certainty that at least 5.8% of employed grads were working in a position that does not require bar passage. Some of these may have reported their salaries, particularly those who returned to pre-law school employment and actually had an annual salary to report. So you can't construe the median salaries as consisting only of legal jobs, or only of jobs for which earning a JD increased that person's earning opportunity. Of the 65% who passed the bar, we also don't know how many of them were able to find legal employment that made studying and passing the bar worth their time. Without more information from the school, a risk-averse applicant should try and fill in the gaps with the least favorable information.*

Given that, let's look more closely at the available salary information. Just 48 graduates in the private sector reported salary, out of 66 graduates. Of the 48, the 25% salary percentile was $39,250. However, another 25% (actually 27%) of the 66 private sector graduates reported no salary whatsoever. It is very likely that many (if not all) of them had salaries that fall below the published 25th percentile, and some may have found unpaid work. Filling in the gaps with the worst plausible information means that the published 25th percentile salary could actually represent the average salary of all employed graduates. When you factor in the remaining 1/3 of the class who were unemployed 9 months after graduation, the average salary for all graduates is much lower. If it's true that a third of the class found no job after 9 months of searching and that the rest only found a mix of legal and nonlegal jobs that paid on average less than $40,000, I would say there's a strong argument that the law school is defrauding its applicants by not making that information clear at the outset. The law school is required by law to report basic consumer information. You can see which information it considers to be basic here: http://www.wsulaw.edu/student-consumer- ... rview.aspx

Finally, while filling in the gaps with less favorable information may help you better gauge the starting salaries of the class as a whole, you still know nothing about the quality of the jobs for which salaries were reported, and how many of them you might find desirable as an applicant. And you have no idea how many of the employed graduates who reported salaries found work through family connections or other means that can't be attributed to the law school itself.

* To get more information from the school, I recommend you contact Career Services and ask for a complete list of the employers who have hired Class of 2010 graduates so far. If they tell you that information isn't available, be sure to let them know you can wait until they finish collecting it in February and ask if they can send it to you then. If they tell you the information is private, you can let them know you are concerned that the information published by the school is potentially misleading and that without more information you cannot justify investing $100K of your (or your parents') money. They have the information you need since they report most of it already to NALP, and since they only need to track down a relatively small number of graduates they should be able to compile and send you the information in a relatively short amount of time.

Amiricanmade wrote:I also checked out Chapman, would you also include Chapman in the not worth your $/time category?


I strongly recommend doing a similar analysis of the available information for Chapman, and then contacting the school to ask for more current data on the Class of 2010. Regarding your comment on debt, I don't think we can say the current concerns about legal education apply only to people who must take on personal debt to finance their degree. Although you won't be paying for the legal education, you will still spend three very difficult years in an atmosphere where many of your classmates will compete for a very small number of legal positions. Many of them (perhaps people who end up becoming close friends of yours) will become discouraged, convincing themselves (perhaps correclty) that the law school intentionally lied to them about the realities of the legal hiring market. They will have no recourse to recover their debt and will be pressured to accept any job that will allow them to make monthly payments. Many of them will feel like they let their families down, especially if they have a spouse and/or children to support (see here: http://www.wsulaw.edu/student-consumer- ... rview.aspx). Please note that BC Law is considered to be a top regional law school with national placement ability, and that USNews currently ranks it within the top 25.

And without family or other connections to legal employers, you may find that your own prospects of finding a legal job are nonexistent unless you manage to outperform most of your classmates in law school. Even then, we don't know enough about the jobs available to top performers at Western law school, other than that at least some achieved starting salaries that would permit them to repay their debt. Unfortunately most of what's available from third party sources about job prospects focus exclusively on the top performers from the top 10-50 or so ABA-approved law schools. For the tens of thousands of applicants who will be attending one of the other ones, all they have to go on is the information disclosed by the law schools.


Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to reply. Since this thread i've made up my mind that if i don't get into a "TOP" law school, i will probably forgo law school for the time being. I can't justify spending 3 years in decent law school and then having to pass the bar, all to be stressed about finding a job that i worked so hard to earn. I will use the websites you've posted for me and study my butt off trying to get myself into a TLS. I will post my results here - good or bad - and make up my decision at the time. I appreciate members like you who take the time to inform the uninformed -such as myself- to make better decisions when it comes to law school

Amiricanmade
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby Amiricanmade » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:58 am

nStiver wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Amiricanmade wrote:
gdane5 wrote:I dont understand why youre even "preparing for the worst". Thats such a negative thing to do. Aim high and adjust your expectations accordingly. Take care of the LSAT first.



I'm just a pessimist. I just wanna know worst case scenario i'll be ok. The thing is, if i want to go to law school i would be a Business Management W/Emphasis on Legal Studies, if not I'd declare Accounting. Accounting would result in my GPA being a bit lower -since it's hard as puck-(which doesn't matter since i don't have to get into law school) but i don't wanna have even a .1 lower GPA if i wanna go to law school. I dunno i'm just confused and scared. I know of some friends who graduated from Southwestern and now have a corp job, not sure where they graduated in their class and if they used their school for job prospects of connections.


puck? Don't you mean 'fuck'?

Anyways, it's beyond me why anybody would do legal studies for UG. It means you're going to be a lawyer who knows a lot about the 'science of law' but not much else... and law schools discourage this anyways - not to mention that your LSAT will SUUUUUUUUUCK which translates to your FUUUUUUUUUCKED. Besides, it also depends on what you like to do and what type of lawyer you want to be. For instance, you need an engineering or hard science degree to sit for the patent bar.

And, as far as worst case scenario: You'll be homeless.

If you want to make money - go be an investment banker or something.


I don't think the fact that someone chooses to study "legal studies" or whatever as an undergrad means that their LSAT will suck. Sure, its great to have a math or science degree, but unless you have done a lot of reading in your day, the LSAT is going to be a challenge for you. I was a history major, and I took some undergrad Constitutional Law courses. They were damn interesting and I don't regret it one bit. I actually think that all the reading required by my history degree and the con law classes was a big help for me on the LSAT: I was already a pretty fast reader. Slow reader=fucked on the LSAT.

I think that math and science people are probably better at logic games, but that's it.

I think having a math or science or "hard" degree does make someone more interesting as a prospective law student though, it shows that the applicant has some applicable knowledge about the world outside of the traditional liberal arts curriculum.


Agreed 100%.

PS after some deep thinking, i will no longer do legal studies. I will do Accounting or Finance as i have a "back-up-plan" in case i don't score in the 16xs. Although i should be ok with a legal studies emphasis since my degree would be "Business Management" and it's important for managers do know the legal side of business, i think i'll be more marketable in Accounting or Finance if i decide to take the MBA route, and i think it'll help me even if i go to Law School as i'd know the language of business -being accounting.

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MrSoOoFLy
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby MrSoOoFLy » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:16 am

I was a legal studies major and I think I turned out alright :(

whymeohgodno
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:10 am

The general consensus is if you are asking whether or not you want to be a lawyer and you haven't got accepted to HYS - it's probably best you spend that 200k somewhere else (unless you got $$$ to a t14 school...maybe t17).

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AreJay711
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:15 pm

Amiricanmade wrote:
Agreed 100%.

PS after some deep thinking, i will no longer do legal studies. I will do Accounting or Finance as i have a "back-up-plan" in case i don't score in the 16xs. Although i should be ok with a legal studies emphasis since my degree would be "Business Management" and it's important for managers do know the legal side of business, i think i'll be more marketable in Accounting or Finance if i decide to take the MBA route, and i think it'll help me even if i go to Law School as i'd know the language of business -being accounting.


Take formal logic classes and symbolic logic if it isn't in the intro class. The reason math and science majors do well in the lsat is because mathematics is very very similar to symbolic logic (which was developed to be the calculus of arguments) and the test makers HAVE to be able to break anything down on that test into symbolic terms if they want to prove beyond a doubt it is right. You don't have to break it down yourself but practice thinking in that way helps. Also math helps more on the LR I think -- I got 49/50 LR right on the October lsat yet LGs are my weak point because it really isn't that similar to mathematics (maybe science though).


You should take a wide variety of classes -- you never know when knowledge of theater in Shakespeare's time will come back to help you.

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observationalist
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby observationalist » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:55 pm

Amiricanmade wrote:
observationalist wrote:
Amiricanmade wrote:Great site and thanks for the info. I'm taking a look at Western State and the site indicates 66 our of the 105 work in the private sector (what do they do, no clue) but that's a decent number seeing as how 66/105 students weren't top 5% yet they still have a job-trying to optimistic?

Also, when it says that 29% of the graduates were not employed after 9 months, could this be because they didn't pass the bar and perhaps they are studying for the bar? Or are these the # of people who graduated and passed the bar?


This is what I would make of the available information on Western State (sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this):

For the Class of 2008, a full 29% of the class was reported as being unemployed (irrespective of whether they passed the July 2008 bar exam). That number is very high for an ABA-approved law school, considering that any job would have counted a person as employed. Of the 66 graduates who reported being employed, you need to recognize the variety of jobs they could have obtained. This group includes anyone employed full-time or part-time, paid or unpaid, in any legal or non-legal position, so long as it is in a for-profit business (it does not include public defender jobs, an area in which the school advertises as a strength within the OC). Among other jobs, this category can include bartending parttime, temp work a few hours a week, returning to a job held prior to law school such as tutoring, working for a parent of family member in a non-law-related field, or serving coffee at Starbucks. Also, in 2008 the job market was significantly better than it is now, and we are unlikely to see a return to 2008 hiring levels for a very long time. It is likely that more graduates in the Class of 2010 will find nonlegal employment than in 2008 given how saturated the legal market is right now.

I understand many applicants are cautious about assuming that graduates end up in nonlegal jobs, and you might be inclined to fill in the gaps with more favorable jobs. But per this article I found here: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1 the same Class of 2008 achieved just a 65% bar passage rate of those taking the CA bar. Given that only 65% passed the bar but 70.8% of the class is counted as employed 9 months out from graduation (after bar results come out), this means we can say with near certainty that at least 5.8% of employed grads were working in a position that does not require bar passage. Some of these may have reported their salaries, particularly those who returned to pre-law school employment and actually had an annual salary to report. So you can't construe the median salaries as consisting only of legal jobs, or only of jobs for which earning a JD increased that person's earning opportunity. Of the 65% who passed the bar, we also don't know how many of them were able to find legal employment that made studying and passing the bar worth their time. Without more information from the school, a risk-averse applicant should try and fill in the gaps with the least favorable information.*

Given that, let's look more closely at the available salary information. Just 48 graduates in the private sector reported salary, out of 66 graduates. Of the 48, the 25% salary percentile was $39,250. However, another 25% (actually 27%) of the 66 private sector graduates reported no salary whatsoever. It is very likely that many (if not all) of them had salaries that fall below the published 25th percentile, and some may have found unpaid work. Filling in the gaps with the worst plausible information means that the published 25th percentile salary could actually represent the average salary of all employed graduates. When you factor in the remaining 1/3 of the class who were unemployed 9 months after graduation, the average salary for all graduates is much lower. If it's true that a third of the class found no job after 9 months of searching and that the rest only found a mix of legal and nonlegal jobs that paid on average less than $40,000, I would say there's a strong argument that the law school is defrauding its applicants by not making that information clear at the outset. The law school is required by law to report basic consumer information. You can see which information it considers to be basic here: http://www.wsulaw.edu/student-consumer- ... rview.aspx

Finally, while filling in the gaps with less favorable information may help you better gauge the starting salaries of the class as a whole, you still know nothing about the quality of the jobs for which salaries were reported, and how many of them you might find desirable as an applicant. And you have no idea how many of the employed graduates who reported salaries found work through family connections or other means that can't be attributed to the law school itself.

* To get more information from the school, I recommend you contact Career Services and ask for a complete list of the employers who have hired Class of 2010 graduates so far. If they tell you that information isn't available, be sure to let them know you can wait until they finish collecting it in February and ask if they can send it to you then. If they tell you the information is private, you can let them know you are concerned that the information published by the school is potentially misleading and that without more information you cannot justify investing $100K of your (or your parents') money. They have the information you need since they report most of it already to NALP, and since they only need to track down a relatively small number of graduates they should be able to compile and send you the information in a relatively short amount of time.

Amiricanmade wrote:I also checked out Chapman, would you also include Chapman in the not worth your $/time category?


I strongly recommend doing a similar analysis of the available information for Chapman, and then contacting the school to ask for more current data on the Class of 2010. Regarding your comment on debt, I don't think we can say the current concerns about legal education apply only to people who must take on personal debt to finance their degree. Although you won't be paying for the legal education, you will still spend three very difficult years in an atmosphere where many of your classmates will compete for a very small number of legal positions. Many of them (perhaps people who end up becoming close friends of yours) will become discouraged, convincing themselves (perhaps correclty) that the law school intentionally lied to them about the realities of the legal hiring market. They will have no recourse to recover their debt and will be pressured to accept any job that will allow them to make monthly payments. Many of them will feel like they let their families down, especially if they have a spouse and/or children to support (see here: http://www.wsulaw.edu/student-consumer- ... rview.aspx). Please note that BC Law is considered to be a top regional law school with national placement ability, and that USNews currently ranks it within the top 25.

And without family or other connections to legal employers, you may find that your own prospects of finding a legal job are nonexistent unless you manage to outperform most of your classmates in law school. Even then, we don't know enough about the jobs available to top performers at Western law school, other than that at least some achieved starting salaries that would permit them to repay their debt. Unfortunately most of what's available from third party sources about job prospects focus exclusively on the top performers from the top 10-50 or so ABA-approved law schools. For the tens of thousands of applicants who will be attending one of the other ones, all they have to go on is the information disclosed by the law schools.


Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to reply. Since this thread i've made up my mind that if i don't get into a "TOP" law school, i will probably forgo law school for the time being. I can't justify spending 3 years in decent law school and then having to pass the bar, all to be stressed about finding a job that i worked so hard to earn. I will use the websites you've posted for me and study my butt off trying to get myself into a TLS. I will post my results here - good or bad - and make up my decision at the time. I appreciate members like you who take the time to inform the uninformed -such as myself- to make better decisions when it comes to law school


You're quite welcome... g'luck in the LSAT prep and figuring out whether a career in law is something worth pursuing for you. Just remember that very top law schools are still committing the same offenses to different degrees (particularly large programs), and that tuition just about everywhere is in need of a sharp correction downward to reflect the realities of the hiring market and the relative value of a law degree.

[Sorry to everyone else for my lack of brevity.]

nStiver
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby nStiver » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:19 pm

ResolutePear wrote:I'm glad you decided to take time to point out something I already answered... but fine, I'll go into it a bit deeper without citing an academic source again:

Statistically, you're going to do worse as a "pre law" major than a hard-science or economics major. Numbers don't lie. Telling yourself anything different is like telling yourself that drinking mercury and pissing blood are not correlated or.. thinking to yourself that stabbing your face with a rusted knife and getting tetanus/"lockjaw" is a coincidence.

The OP is going into Business - and that's pretty decent since there are multiple exit options other than law. If you're a pre-law and bomb the LSAT ITE, you went to school for 4 years to become homeless. There's no debate in that. You're more worthless than a Poli. Sci. major and should you want to go for a MBA, well - you'll be hardpressed to explain your B.A. (for the record, I am a Poli. Sci. major.. well, one of my majors and i'd be FUCKED if I only had that to rely on.)

And, if you're too slow to read the LSAT at the late-junior/senior level - you don't belong in a university unless you have a disability, which then is understandable. From the PT's I've done.. conlaw hasn't helped me for anything, unless you're missing those crucial analytical skills you learn in majors dealing with the hard science, math, and economics.


Yes, I saw the chart you put up. I was not saying that pre-law or poly sci majors do not statistically score lower on the lsat than other majors. I was simply saying that just because you are a pre law major does not mean that your LSAT score will "SUUUCCCCKKK". I am not advising people to major in pre-law nor do I think it makes you score well on the LSAT.

I wonder if the correlation between poly sci / pre law and low LSAT numbers is because a higher proportion of stupid and/or lazy people choose those majors as opposed to an economics major or a philosophy major. It would be interesting to see how math majors do on the LSAT.

And yes, you don't feel like con-law classes or what not helped you on the LSAT: Cool, good for you. I still maintain that the copious amounts of reading I did as an undergraduate only improved my performance on the LSAT, although I was a relatively fast reader to start with.

Excluding those that are unusually smart, I am willing to bet that the single greatest predictor of success on the LSAT is the amount of work one puts into their preparation, not a person's major.
Last edited by nStiver on Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:22 pm

There is absolutely no reason to major in pre law. ABSOLUTELY NONE.

nStiver
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby nStiver » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:23 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:There is absolutely no reason to major in pre law. ABSOLUTELY NONE.


Yes, it is stupid to major in pre-law. It limits you and tells law schools that you are not a well rounded individual.

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MrSoOoFLy
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby MrSoOoFLy » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:00 pm

nStiver wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:There is absolutely no reason to major in pre law. ABSOLUTELY NONE.


Yes, it is stupid to major in pre-law. It limits you and tells law schools that you are not a well rounded individual.


Lol excuse those of us that knew what we wanted to do with our lives and pursued a major reflecting that during undergrad.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:03 pm

MrSoOoFLy wrote:
nStiver wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:There is absolutely no reason to major in pre law. ABSOLUTELY NONE.


Yes, it is stupid to major in pre-law. It limits you and tells law schools that you are not a well rounded individual.


Lol excuse those of us that knew what we wanted to do with our lives and pursued a major reflecting that during undergrad.


Law schools look NEGATIVELY on pre law...

rickynwhyc
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby rickynwhyc » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:04 pm

MrSoOoFLy wrote:
nStiver wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:There is absolutely no reason to major in pre law. ABSOLUTELY NONE.


Yes, it is stupid to major in pre-law. It limits you and tells law schools that you are not a well rounded individual.


Lol excuse those of us that knew what we wanted to do with our lives and pursued a major reflecting that during undergrad.


Oh please, how much did you know about what a Lawyer actually does when you were 17-18?
I for one, should have majored in Bio, Chem, Astronomy, Physics, etc. Like an idiot, I went to a business school and majored in Marketing, thinking It'd be a good "Fallback".

Bachelors degrees are F*CKING useless, half the most successful people I know are in BUSINESS with political science BAs. Liberal arts is useful across the map, that goes without saying. I think it's best to just go with what you're whole heartedly INTERESTED in, because ITE, no market is safe. Gain some solid skills and hope for the best

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MrSoOoFLy
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby MrSoOoFLy » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:41 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
MrSoOoFLy wrote:
nStiver wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:There is absolutely no reason to major in pre law. ABSOLUTELY NONE.


Yes, it is stupid to major in pre-law. It limits you and tells law schools that you are not a well rounded individual.


Lol excuse those of us that knew what we wanted to do with our lives and pursued a major reflecting that during undergrad.


Law schools look NEGATIVELY on pre law...


Worked out pretty well for me.
rickynwhyc wrote:Oh please, how much did you know about what a Lawyer actually does when you were 17-18?
I for one, should have majored in Bio, Chem, Astronomy, Physics, etc. Like an idiot, I went to a business school and majored in Marketing, thinking It'd be a good "Fallback".

Bachelors degrees are F*CKING useless, half the most successful people I know are in BUSINESS with political science BAs. Liberal arts is useful across the map, that goes without saying. I think it's best to just go with what you're whole heartedly INTERESTED in, because ITE, no market is safe. Gain some solid skills and hope for the best


I think you fail to realize that maybe I was whole heartedly interested in law to begin with ?

schnoodle
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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby schnoodle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:58 pm

to echo what some have said: math and logic. math and logic. the lsat is 3 parts intense focus, 2 parts systematic thinking, and 1 part creativity. the best mathematicians are creative.

incidentally, law school is 3 parts intense focus, 2 parts systematic thinking, and 2 parts creativity. doing well on the LSAT doesn't mean you will get good grades, but it doesn't mean nothing either. so if you stink at the LSAT, consider doing something else. really consider it.

anecdotal evidence- i'm a math guy, scored >175.

but don't do a hard major that will lower your gpa. don't let those brats in the comm. dept. take your spot. i'm proud of my gpa but it doesn't look as pretty as some others'.

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:22 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:There is absolutely no reason to major in pre law. ABSOLUTELY NONE.


I know we started off on a wrong foot - but can I confess a profound love for you now that you've posted this?

kthx

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:26 pm

MrSoOoFLy wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
MrSoOoFLy wrote:
nStiver wrote:
Yes, it is stupid to major in pre-law. It limits you and tells law schools that you are not a well rounded individual.


Lol excuse those of us that knew what we wanted to do with our lives and pursued a major reflecting that during undergrad.


Law schools look NEGATIVELY on pre law...


Worked out pretty well for me.
rickynwhyc wrote:Oh please, how much did you know about what a Lawyer actually does when you were 17-18?
I for one, should have majored in Bio, Chem, Astronomy, Physics, etc. Like an idiot, I went to a business school and majored in Marketing, thinking It'd be a good "Fallback".

Bachelors degrees are F*CKING useless, half the most successful people I know are in BUSINESS with political science BAs. Liberal arts is useful across the map, that goes without saying. I think it's best to just go with what you're whole heartedly INTERESTED in, because ITE, no market is safe. Gain some solid skills and hope for the best


I think you fail to realize that maybe I was whole heartedly interested in law to begin with ?


At 16-17 most people have had ZERO exposure to the science of law and just about the same exposure to the practice of law.

Also, Bachelors are *not* useless - liberal arts bachelors are. Engineering is a prime example.

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby arvcondor » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:28 pm

4for44 wrote:
Get a ~165 or less and it wouldnt be worth your parents money to go anywhere you'd get in. Earning potential will probably be less than CPA...
I just want to make sure you're referring to the specific scenario for the OP and not dickishly suggesting that anyone who gets into a non T20 is foolhardy.

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby nStiver » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:40 pm

MrSoOoFLy wrote:
nStiver wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:There is absolutely no reason to major in pre law. ABSOLUTELY NONE.


Yes, it is stupid to major in pre-law. It limits you and tells law schools that you are not a well rounded individual.


Lol excuse those of us that knew what we wanted to do with our lives and pursued a major reflecting that during undergrad.



Hey if it worked out for you, cool.

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:42 pm

nStiver wrote:
MrSoOoFLy wrote:
nStiver wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:There is absolutely no reason to major in pre law. ABSOLUTELY NONE.


Yes, it is stupid to major in pre-law. It limits you and tells law schools that you are not a well rounded individual.


Lol excuse those of us that knew what we wanted to do with our lives and pursued a major reflecting that during undergrad.



Hey if it worked out for you, cool.

Exactly. One person is not a representative sample.

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby nStiver » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:45 pm

schnoodle wrote:1 part creativity.


I am sorry, but I do not think that the LSAT requires even one microcosm of creativity! I can see how math helps with analytical thinking and logic games, but I doubt it does much for your reading comp. I think its best to be rounded for the lsat, like history and mathematics or something that no one ever does. Because the test is reading based, all of my history reading made studying the LSAT feel natural.

I'm not trying to diss on your post or whatever, but I fail to see how the LSAT requires creativity!

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby nStiver » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:48 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Exactly. One person is not a representative sample.


Pear..I have two questions for you.

1) Do you consume large amounts of marijuana?

2) Who the hell are you? You are the most eccentric poster on this forum. For some reason I imagine you as a smart guy that smokes a ton of weed and still manages to maintain at school, work, etc.

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:48 pm

nStiver wrote:
schnoodle wrote:1 part creativity.


I am sorry, but I do not think that the LSAT requires even one microcosm of creativity! I can see how math helps with analytical thinking and logic games, but I doubt it does much for your reading comp. I think its best to be rounded for the lsat, like history and mathematics or something that no one ever does. Because the test is reading based, all of my history reading made studying the LSAT feel natural.

I'm not trying to diss on your post or whatever, but I fail to see how the LSAT requires creativity!

I think he's trying to compare creativity to "uneducated analytics"

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby northwood » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:52 pm

why have a major that is worthless? You learn the science and theory of law in law school. having a major of pre law is looked down up on because each law school wants to teach you their way, and not have to spend time untraining you, then training you to think their way.

if you are interested in law- you should major in something that has a heavy reading load.
if you are intrerested in medicine- major in biology or science

if you know you want to go on to a professional degree- just get the background info and leave the heavy stuff for the professional school

i know this is all hindsight, but if you knew you wanted to be a lawyer when you were 18, why didnt you talk to a few to get a good idea of what major would help you be the best prepared for law school???

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Re: Law School or Not?

Postby minnbills » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:39 pm

Well in this job market most majors are fucked, so it's kind of a moot point.

But pre-law just seems unnecessary. Why not study something else you're interested in?

I'm a double in Hist/Poly Sci. for the record.

I will say that my friends in the 'hard sciences' have a pretty good outlook right now- if they can get into med school.




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