Vanderbilt vs T14

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Grizz
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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Grizz » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:35 pm

im_blue wrote:HYS
CCN
MVPBDN
V
C
G


First person I've seen on here to use V to mean Vandy and UVA. I sorta like it.

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Grizz
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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Grizz » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:40 pm

woeisme wrote:
rad law wrote:Want the southern firms? Want ATL? Don't go to Cornell over Vandy. And if you get money, I'd take it over Georgetown, too.


In fairness, this depends on how you're defining the south. I'd argue that most of the larger cities even in the south (excepting Nashville) will be more excited about a Cornell student than a Vanderbilt student. But I certainly agree that if we're focusing exclusively on southern markets, than the discrepancy between the two is smaller and taking Vanderbilt with money is definitely sensible.


The South being the 11 states of the former Confederacy. The name is really really strong here. Not as much as UVA or Duke though. Though where I'm from in FL, people even recommended that I go to Vandy even over Duke.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby 005618502 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:09 pm

rad law wrote:
woeisme wrote:
rad law wrote:Want the southern firms? Want ATL? Don't go to Cornell over Vandy. And if you get money, I'd take it over Georgetown, too.


In fairness, this depends on how you're defining the south. I'd argue that most of the larger cities even in the south (excepting Nashville) will be more excited about a Cornell student than a Vanderbilt student. But I certainly agree that if we're focusing exclusively on southern markets, than the discrepancy between the two is smaller and taking Vanderbilt with money is definitely sensible.


The South being the 11 states of the former Confederacy. The name is really really strong here. Not as much as UVA or Duke though. Though where I'm from in FL, people even recommended that I go to Vandy even over Duke.


This doesnt matter. I have had an associate at Bracewell and giuliani tell me i should go to UT over UVA because it has such incredible alumni across the country. So its hard to take someones opinion to heart.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Grizz » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:14 pm

jt1341 wrote:This doesnt matter. I have had an associate at Bracewell and giuliani tell me i should go to UT over UVA because it has such incredible alumni across the country. So its hard to take someones opinion to heart.


It matters, as long as they're not the only people you listen to.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby 005618502 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:15 pm

rad law wrote:
jt1341 wrote:This doesnt matter. I have had an associate at Bracewell and giuliani tell me i should go to UT over UVA because it has such incredible alumni across the country. So its hard to take someones opinion to heart.


It matters, as long as they're not the only people you listen to.


I guess it also greatly depends on which area you want to end up practicing in

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:16 pm

Depends which UT, if Texas, then yes, but not for Tennessee.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby 005618502 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:18 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Depends which UT, if Texas, then yes, but not for Tennessee.


Who ever means Tennessee when they say UT? I think the nation thinks of UT as texas, sans the state of Tennessee.

Is this incorrect?

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:20 pm

When discussing Vanderbilt--a law school in Tennessee--UT can mean Tennessee (and yes I realize that the above reference was Virginia versus UT even though the thread is about Vanderbilt). Depends upon the context.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby 005618502 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:21 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:When discussing Vanderbilt--a law school in Tennessee--UT can mean Tennessee. Depends upon the context.


oo okay, well i meant Texas

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:22 pm

In that case, I know many attorneys that would agree with your friend's suggestion.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby 005618502 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:24 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:In that case, I know many attorneys that would agree with your friend's suggestion.


But why? If not getting money from either why not go to the better school (or higher ranked i guess). Doesnt UVA place well in Texas.

I know it probably doesnt place as well as UT in texas but wont it place better in any other state?
Last edited by 005618502 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:30 pm

For me, it's just personal preference; for others, it depends upon where you want to work & what type of law school atmosphere is more attractive.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Grizz » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:30 pm

jt1341 wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:In that case, I know many attorneys that would agree with your friend's suggestion.


But why? If not getting money from either why not go to the better school (or higher ranked i guess). Doesnt UVA place well in Texas.

I knwo it probably doesnt place as well as UT in texas but wont it place better in any other state?


Pretty much impossible to say in the abstract. Depends a lot on where the applicant has ties or how provincial the markets are or how many alums are there.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby 005618502 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:31 pm

rad law wrote:
jt1341 wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:In that case, I know many attorneys that would agree with your friend's suggestion.


But why? If not getting money from either why not go to the better school (or higher ranked i guess). Doesnt UVA place well in Texas.

I knwo it probably doesnt place as well as UT in texas but wont it place better in any other state?


Pretty much impossible to say in the abstract. Depends a lot on where the applicant has ties or how provincial the markets are or how many alums are there.


Is it good to go to a different school for law school so then you have 2 sets of alumni. Like Texas for UG and UVA for LS better then Texas for both?

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:36 pm

Not sure. It might be better to stay with one school for both if you plan to practice in that region.
Texas is a tough example versus Virginia, because Texas is as strong as some top 14 law schools. If your friend suggested USC over Virginia--all other factors being equal--than Virginia is probably the wiser choice.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Rawlsian » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:57 am

woeisme wrote:
dcman06 wrote:Vandy's numbers look like they're very close to T-14 level with numbers.... Don't most of the guys there stay down in Tennessee though? They probably could get a variety of good jobs in Nashville and Memphis!


Vandy's numbers have improved substantially in recent years. This is due largely to the fact that they throw around lots of money to boost their numbers. T-14s generally don't throw around the same kind of money. For this reason, the gap between lower T14 and T15-20 is narrowing (since people who'd normally take T14 are being swayed by money at T15-20). The fact of the matter, though, is that these T15-20 schools don't have the same scholarly impact on the legal market. They don't have the same quality of professors (in the aggregate). They're distinguishable from the T14 on various bases. But yes, many of their numbers are very competitive with T14 schools, Vandy especially.

And I'm not sure that their students really stay in Tennessee. And they're certainly not limited to Tennessee. If you can't get into T-14 and you're not interested in going to a strong school in the market of your interest, I think Vandy, UT, and UCLA are undoubtedly your next best bet. They're quasi-national and will still present you with opportunities in geographically diverse areas.


This is sentiment I was addressing in my previous post. "Vandy is a good school, but Cornell is a better school than Vandy because Cornell is in the t-14." Ok, then that begs the question: What about the "t-14" makes it meritorious distinction? Is it because the rankings correlate with employment prospects? Well, the data suggest they do not. Is it because the t-14, as you suggested above, have better faculty? Well, this is kind of a subjective question that is open to debate. But, the two objective measures I know of do not support the contention that t-14>Vandy.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_scholarlyimpact.shtml Vandy: 10 Cornell: 11
http://hq.ssrn.com/rankings/Ranking_Display.cfm?TMY_gID=2&TRN_gID=13&redirectFrom=true Vandy: 8 Cornell: 39

I posit that there is no "gap" between Cornell, Georgetown, and Vandy. I argue that t-14 is a useless distinction. No one ITT has provided an argument to show otherwise. Rather, just they have given a series of unsupported, misleading premises.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby thickfreakness » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:09 am

T12 or bust, suckaz!

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby woeisme » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:11 pm

Rawlsian wrote:
woeisme wrote:
dcman06 wrote:Vandy's numbers look like they're very close to T-14 level with numbers.... Don't most of the guys there stay down in Tennessee though? They probably could get a variety of good jobs in Nashville and Memphis!


Vandy's numbers have improved substantially in recent years. This is due largely to the fact that they throw around lots of money to boost their numbers. T-14s generally don't throw around the same kind of money. For this reason, the gap between lower T14 and T15-20 is narrowing (since people who'd normally take T14 are being swayed by money at T15-20). The fact of the matter, though, is that these T15-20 schools don't have the same scholarly impact on the legal market. They don't have the same quality of professors (in the aggregate). They're distinguishable from the T14 on various bases. But yes, many of their numbers are very competitive with T14 schools, Vandy especially.

And I'm not sure that their students really stay in Tennessee. And they're certainly not limited to Tennessee. If you can't get into T-14 and you're not interested in going to a strong school in the market of your interest, I think Vandy, UT, and UCLA are undoubtedly your next best bet. They're quasi-national and will still present you with opportunities in geographically diverse areas.


This is sentiment I was addressing in my previous post. "Vandy is a good school, but Cornell is a better school than Vandy because Cornell is in the t-14." Ok, then that begs the question: What about the "t-14" makes it meritorious distinction? Is it because the rankings correlate with employment prospects? Well, the data suggest they do not. Is it because the t-14, as you suggested above, have better faculty? Well, this is kind of a subjective question that is open to debate. But, the two objective measures I know of do not support the contention that t-14>Vandy.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_scholarlyimpact.shtml Vandy: 10 Cornell: 11
http://hq.ssrn.com/rankings/Ranking_Display.cfm?TMY_gID=2&TRN_gID=13&redirectFrom=true Vandy: 8 Cornell: 39

I posit that there is no "gap" between Cornell, Georgetown, and Vandy. I argue that t-14 is a useless distinction. No one ITT has provided an argument to show otherwise. Rather, just they have given a series of unsupported, misleading premises.


You're cute

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Grizz » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:28 pm

thickfreakness wrote:T12 or bust, suckaz!


Hey thick, go fuck yourself!

In all serious, glad you like Duke.

Also, I feel that T12 or T17 is a much more meaningful distinction.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby thickfreakness » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:22 pm

rad law wrote:
thickfreakness wrote:T12 or bust, suckaz!


Hey thick, go fuck yourself!

In all serious, glad you like Duke.

Also, I feel that T12 or T17 is a much more meaningful distinction.


FWIW I agree with Rawlsian that Vandy, Cornell, and Georgetown are all largely peer schools. The T12 thing was brief, sarcastic meme that popped up last year right after the USNWR rankings were released.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby im_blue » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:30 pm

IMO it's T3, T6, then T12. D/N have really separated from C/G ITE.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Grizz » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:31 pm

im_blue wrote:IMO it's T3, T6, then T12. D/N have really separated from C/G ITE.


Definitely this.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:17 am

Rawlsian wrote:
woeisme wrote:
dcman06 wrote:Vandy's numbers look like they're very close to T-14 level with numbers.... Don't most of the guys there stay down in Tennessee though? They probably could get a variety of good jobs in Nashville and Memphis!


Vandy's numbers have improved substantially in recent years. This is due largely to the fact that they throw around lots of money to boost their numbers. T-14s generally don't throw around the same kind of money. For this reason, the gap between lower T14 and T15-20 is narrowing (since people who'd normally take T14 are being swayed by money at T15-20). The fact of the matter, though, is that these T15-20 schools don't have the same scholarly impact on the legal market. They don't have the same quality of professors (in the aggregate). They're distinguishable from the T14 on various bases. But yes, many of their numbers are very competitive with T14 schools, Vandy especially.

And I'm not sure that their students really stay in Tennessee. And they're certainly not limited to Tennessee. If you can't get into T-14 and you're not interested in going to a strong school in the market of your interest, I think Vandy, UT, and UCLA are undoubtedly your next best bet. They're quasi-national and will still present you with opportunities in geographically diverse areas.


This is sentiment I was addressing in my previous post. "Vandy is a good school, but Cornell is a better school than Vandy because Cornell is in the t-14." Ok, then that begs the question: What about the "t-14" makes it meritorious distinction? Is it because the rankings correlate with employment prospects? Well, the data suggest they do not. Is it because the t-14, as you suggested above, have better faculty? Well, this is kind of a subjective question that is open to debate. But, the two objective measures I know of do not support the contention that t-14>Vandy.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_scholarlyimpact.shtml Vandy: 10 Cornell: 11
http://hq.ssrn.com/rankings/Ranking_Display.cfm?TMY_gID=2&TRN_gID=13&redirectFrom=true Vandy: 8 Cornell: 39

I posit that there is no "gap" between Cornell, Georgetown, and Vandy. I argue that t-14 is a useless distinction. No one ITT has provided an argument to show otherwise. Rather, just they have given a series of unsupported, misleading premises.

I think in terms of job prospects in general (as in, being employed) and scholarly impact, you are right. I think if you're a law student who cares about working at the most prestigious firm possible (which, let's face it, a lot of folks do care about that), then Cornell and Georgetown are more likely to get you there than Vandy. I already posted this, bu you claim there hasn't been an argument to show there IS a distinction between T14 and other firms, and that is incorrect.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Rawlsian » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:35 pm

Other25BeforeYou wrote:
Rawlsian wrote:
This is sentiment I was addressing in my previous post. "Vandy is a good school, but Cornell is a better school than Vandy because Cornell is in the t-14." Ok, then that begs the question: What about the "t-14" makes it meritorious distinction? Is it because the rankings correlate with employment prospects? Well, the data suggest they do not. Is it because the t-14, as you suggested above, have better faculty? Well, this is kind of a subjective question that is open to debate. But, the two objective measures I know of do not support the contention that t-14>Vandy.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_scholarlyimpact.shtml Vandy: 10 Cornell: 11
http://hq.ssrn.com/rankings/Ranking_Display.cfm?TMY_gID=2&TRN_gID=13&redirectFrom=true Vandy: 8 Cornell: 39

I posit that there is no "gap" between Cornell, Georgetown, and Vandy. I argue that t-14 is a useless distinction. No one ITT has provided an argument to show otherwise. Rather, just they have given a series of unsupported, misleading premises.

I think in terms of job prospects in general (as in, being employed) and scholarly impact, you are right. I think if you're a law student who cares about working at the most prestigious firm possible (which, let's face it, a lot of folks do care about that), then Cornell and Georgetown are more likely to get you there than Vandy. I already posted this, bu you claim there hasn't been an argument to show there IS a distinction between T14 and other firms, and that is incorrect.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml




That survey was done in 2008. Back in 2008, Cornell and Georgetown placed much better than Vandy. Since then, Vandy's placement has markedly improved, while Cornell and Georgetown's have declined. Also, that study shows the total alumni divided by average graduating class; i.e., it shows historical performance. I don't think anyone would argue that historically Cornell and Georgetown have performed better than Vandy, not just at v15, but NLJ 250 as well. But, even if the trends observed in that study hold true today--that is, Cornell and GULC place better into v15--of the 15 firms surveyed, 8 are in New York, and 4 in D.C. The majority of Cornell grads go to New York both today, and historically, so it's not surprising that a higher ratio of Cornell grads would be at the those New York firms. The same could be said for Georgetown with D.C..
Note that this is not a study of national placement power of law schools, since the super elite firms are overwhelmingly clustered in the Northeast

So that said, picking Cornell over Vandy if you're sure you want New York is probably the smart move--174 Cornell alums to 64 Vandy alums at v15. And picking Georgetown over Vandy if you're sure you want D.C. is likewise credited. However, I believe that Vandy vs. Cornell for D.C., Chicago, Atlanta, and Texas would be a wash. Similarly, I believe Vandy vs. Georgetown for N.Y., Chicago, Atlanta, and Texas would be too close to call. In any case, this does nothing to my contention that Vandy, GULC, and Cornell are peers, and that t-14 is an arbitrary distinction. But I'm sorry for my blanket assertion that "no one has provided evidence..." I didn't mean to brush that aside.

edit: grammar
Last edited by Rawlsian on Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Vanderbilt vs T14

Postby Reedie » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:40 pm

Rawlsian wrote: I didn't mean to brush that aside.


The author of this small study agrees with you that the t14 is arbitrary. And it absolutely is. If you are choosing between Vandy and Cornell purely based on one being in the t14, you are behaving like a fool.




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