Why not like College?

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shemori
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Why not like College?

Postby shemori » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:28 pm

Everybody that I knew going to college had 30 to 40 in government aide and or scholarships from their perspective schools. Why doesn't this happen for law and other graduate programs?

r6_philly
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:36 pm

shemori wrote:Everybody that I knew going to college had 30 to 40 in government aide and or scholarships from their perspective schools. Why doesn't this happen for law and other graduate programs?


Undergraduate is viewed as a necessity and graduate/professional school is still a luxury. Government is trying to first make undergrad available for everyone. Grad is on your own.

shemori
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby shemori » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:43 pm

r6_philly wrote:
shemori wrote:Everybody that I knew going to college had 30 to 40 in government aide and or scholarships from their perspective schools. Why doesn't this happen for law and other graduate programs?


Undergraduate is viewed as a necessity and graduate/professional school is still a luxury. Government is trying to first make undergrad available for everyone. Grad is on your own.



I understand you,but living in new york ,this is just not acceptable to me. I know far too many people, especially those graduates in the social science, that are still in retail making 8 dollars an hour. This reality makes law/grad school look like a necessity to me.

r6_philly
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:48 pm

shemori wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
shemori wrote:Everybody that I knew going to college had 30 to 40 in government aide and or scholarships from their perspective schools. Why doesn't this happen for law and other graduate programs?


Undergraduate is viewed as a necessity and graduate/professional school is still a luxury. Government is trying to first make undergrad available for everyone. Grad is on your own.



I understand you,but living in new york ,this is just not acceptable to me. I know far too many people, especially those graduates in the social science, that are still in retail making 8 dollars an hour. This reality makes law/grad school look like a necessity to me.


The government didn't make you choose a social science major, and the government didn't make you stay in NY and only consider $8 an hour work. You could have gone to community college for 2 years with only grants, chosen from a variety of pre-professional or professional majors, and graduate making $12-20 an hour at the start. Government subsidize college because up to 18 (including HS) is not your choice. Society wants to give you a choice to choose your path, but it's your responsibility to make the right/best choice.

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MiamiUG
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby MiamiUG » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:53 pm

r6_philly wrote:
shemori wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
shemori wrote:Everybody that I knew going to college had 30 to 40 in government aide and or scholarships from their perspective schools. Why doesn't this happen for law and other graduate programs?


Undergraduate is viewed as a necessity and graduate/professional school is still a luxury. Government is trying to first make undergrad available for everyone. Grad is on your own.



I understand you,but living in new york ,this is just not acceptable to me. I know far too many people, especially those graduates in the social science, that are still in retail making 8 dollars an hour. This reality makes law/grad school look like a necessity to me.


The government didn't make you choose a social science major, and the government didn't make you stay in NY and only consider $8 an hour work. You could have gone to community college for 2 years with only grants, chosen from a variety of pre-professional or professional majors, and graduate making $12-20 an hour at the start. Government subsidize college because up to 18 (including HS) is not your choice. Society wants to give you a choice to choose your path, but it's your responsibility to make the right/best choice.


this

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St.Remy
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby St.Remy » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:56 pm

shemori wrote:I understand you,but living in new york ,this is just not acceptable to me. I know far too many people, especially those graduates in the social science, that are still in retail making 8 dollars an hour. This reality makes law/grad school look like a necessity to me.


I love how whenever someone starts a thread complaining about law school costs there is always some variation of the "but I don't think that this is how it should work" comment. The system of legal education in the United States is set up in a certain way, you not approving of it really doesn't matter.

shemori
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby shemori » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:26 pm

St.Remy wrote:
shemori wrote:I understand you,but living in new york ,this is just not acceptable to me. I know far too many people, especially those graduates in the social science, that are still in retail making 8 dollars an hour. This reality makes law/grad school look like a necessity to me.


I love how whenever someone starts a thread complaining about law school costs there is always some variation of the "but I don't think that this is how it should work" comment. The system of legal education in the United States is set up in a certain way, you not approving of it really doesn't matter.


Yes, you are right,but im entitled to my opinion even if i have no say on how this system works. (its comforting lol )

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bk1
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby bk1 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:29 pm

shemori wrote:Yes, you are right,but im entitled to my opinion even if i have no say on how this system works. (its comforting lol )


He's also entitled to call you out on your dumb opinion even if he has no say in how you think.

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AreJay711
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:37 pm

It depends. I didn't get any aid to college and couldn't really borrow enough for school. Even though my parents didn't pay for my school they made too much for aid. At least for grad school you can borrow the full cost of tuition with subsidized fixed rate loans. I think that is quite generous considering you will capture most of the benefit of your law degree in higher wages. If law school were free, every broke ass college student would go to law school just for the hell of it, not those that most want it or can make the best use of it.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby Na_Swatch » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:51 pm

AreJay711 wrote:It depends. I didn't get any aid to college and couldn't really borrow enough for school. Even though my parents didn't pay for my school they made too much for aid. At least for grad school you can borrow the full cost of tuition with subsidized fixed rate loans. I think that is quite generous considering you will capture most of the benefit of your law degree in higher wages. If law school were free, every broke ass college student would go to law school just for the hell of it, not those that most want it or can make the best use of it.


Actually your last sentence already happens due to the first sentence I bolded...

r6_philly
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:07 pm

Federal programs do help make grad and professional schools accessible, but at this point you are responsible for the debt because graduate education is considered optional.

To OP: many kids in this country go to state school and receive less than $20k in aid per year and end up having productive careers and become productive members of society. If what you are saying is accurate, then instead of providing funding and help for your peers to go to grad/professional school, we should really look at taking away the $30-40k grants/aid that they are receiving because the money is not spent efficiently and effectively. The same amount of money that are enabling your friends to make $8/hr in retail could education twice as many teachers, engineers, and nurses at most state schools. Apparently school choice and major choice are what's to blame, not the government and the educational aid policies.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby worldtraveler » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:18 pm

r6_philly wrote:Federal programs do help make grad and professional schools accessible, but at this point you are responsible for the debt because graduate education is considered optional.

To OP: many kids in this country go to state school and receive less than $20k in aid per year and end up having productive careers and become productive members of society. If what you are saying is accurate, then instead of providing funding and help for your peers to go to grad/professional school, we should really look at taking away the $30-40k grants/aid that they are receiving because the money is not spent efficiently and effectively. The same amount of money that are enabling your friends to make $8/hr in retail could education twice as many teachers, engineers, and nurses at most state schools. Apparently school choice and major choice are what's to blame, not the government and the educational aid policies.


I get that it was a typo, but it was still ironic.

09042014
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:29 pm

1) Government grants max out at 5K/year, and you have to be pretty poor to get them

2) Most students get nowhere near 30K even from their private aid at schools. I got zero, and I'm from an middle class family.

3) Schools who do give out aid, are doing it out of a desire to make it fair to low income people. These schools also have huge endowment, and charge a huge amount of tuition to those who can pay.

Law schools do give a ton of merit aid. Many people can get a fullride at some school, it just probably sucks.

They don't give need aid because most people's parents are not paying. Everyone is more or less equal. It just doesn't make sense to give people money.

As to why the government doesn't give money, because grad students are the worst, is why.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:30 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Law schools do give a ton of merit aid. Many people can get a fullride at some school, it just probably sucks.


Blatant anti-WUSTL trolling.

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danidancer
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby danidancer » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:54 pm

Yeah, law school is expensive. It sucks. But if you really want to be a lawyer, you suck it up and deal with it. No one's forcing you to go to law school.

shemori
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby shemori » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:56 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
As to why the government doesn't give money, because grad students are the worst, is why.


HUH? NOT SURE I'm following.

09042014
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:24 pm

shemori wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
As to why the government doesn't give money, because grad students are the worst, is why.


HUH? NOT SURE I'm following.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXvv5sTqNa4#t=0m15s

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AreJay711
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:57 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:It depends. I didn't get any aid to college and couldn't really borrow enough for school. Even though my parents didn't pay for my school they made too much for aid. At least for grad school you can borrow the full cost of tuition with subsidized fixed rate loans. I think that is quite generous considering you will capture most of the benefit of your law degree in higher wages. If law school were free, every broke ass college student would go to law school just for the hell of it, not those that most want it or can make the best use of it.


Actually your last sentence already happens due to the first sentence I bolded...


True, there are more than otherwise but going to professional school isn't straight up free like it is for many undergrads.

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Bosque
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby Bosque » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:59 pm

r6_philly wrote:
shemori wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
shemori wrote:Everybody that I knew going to college had 30 to 40 in government aide and or scholarships from their perspective schools. Why doesn't this happen for law and other graduate programs?


Undergraduate is viewed as a necessity and graduate/professional school is still a luxury. Government is trying to first make undergrad available for everyone. Grad is on your own.



I understand you,but living in new york ,this is just not acceptable to me. I know far too many people, especially those graduates in the social science, that are still in retail making 8 dollars an hour. This reality makes law/grad school look like a necessity to me.


The government didn't make you choose a social science major, and the government didn't make you stay in NY and only consider $8 an hour work. You could have gone to community college for 2 years with only grants, chosen from a variety of pre-professional or professional majors, and graduate making $12-20 an hour at the start. Government subsidize college because up to 18 (including HS) is not your choice. Society wants to give you a choice to choose your path, but it's your responsibility to make the right/best choice.


Also, it is not everyone's God given right not to work in retail for $8 an hour. Someone has to do it. The government does not care if someone's poor choices lead them to end up there... in fact, the government needs someone to do it. All the government cares about is that you are able to educate yourself. The free market decides if that education is worth a damn.

r6_philly
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:13 pm

worldtraveler wrote:I get that it was a typo, but it was still ironic.


I don't get it?

It was not a typo. There is a disconnect between my thoughts and my output, happens all the time (in writing English and in programming). I don't proofread my forum posts.

r6_philly
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:18 pm

Desert Fox wrote:1) Government grants max out at 5K/year, and you have to be pretty poor to get them

Fed has Smart Grant which offers $4k a year to science majors with 3.0 GPA or more as long as you are a Pell recipient.
Depend on the state also because states have additional grant programs. PA has a grant program that will offer another $4k a year if you stick to a work commitment after graduation (1 year for 1 year of grant eligibility). Pell amounts also went up.

So if you are a certain science major you can cover most of all costs with grants. Then add in stafford subsidized and perkins you all set.

2) Most students get nowhere near 30K even from their private aid at schools. I got zero, and I'm from an middle class family.


Many schools have no loan aid policies nowadays so if you get the standard budget minus contribution you still receive quite a bit of grants.

09042014
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:02 am

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:1) Government grants max out at 5K/year, and you have to be pretty poor to get them

Fed has Smart Grant which offers $4k a year to science majors with 3.0 GPA or more as long as you are a Pell recipient.
Depend on the state also because states have additional grant programs. PA has a grant program that will offer another $4k a year if you stick to a work commitment after graduation (1 year for 1 year of grant eligibility). Pell amounts also went up.

So if you are a certain science major you can cover most of all costs with grants. Then add in stafford subsidized and perkins you all set.

2) Most students get nowhere near 30K even from their private aid at schools. I got zero, and I'm from an middle class family.


Many schools have no loan aid policies nowadays so if you get the standard budget minus contribution you still receive quite a bit of grants.


Interesting info about 1, but still most people aren't eligible for Pell Grants.

And while many top schools have no loan aid polices, that's not really relevant for most people.

College is still VERY expensive for most families in America.

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rayiner
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby rayiner » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:03 am

shemori wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
shemori wrote:Everybody that I knew going to college had 30 to 40 in government aide and or scholarships from their perspective schools. Why doesn't this happen for law and other graduate programs?


Undergraduate is viewed as a necessity and graduate/professional school is still a luxury. Government is trying to first make undergrad available for everyone. Grad is on your own.



I understand you,but living in new york ,this is just not acceptable to me. I know far too many people, especially those graduates in the social science, that are still in retail making 8 dollars an hour. This reality makes law/grad school look like a necessity to me.


Get the fuck out of New York. It's saturated --- there is no more room for you.

justadude55
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby justadude55 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:07 am

rayiner wrote:
shemori wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
shemori wrote:Everybody that I knew going to college had 30 to 40 in government aide and or scholarships from their perspective schools. Why doesn't this happen for law and other graduate programs?


Undergraduate is viewed as a necessity and graduate/professional school is still a luxury. Government is trying to first make undergrad available for everyone. Grad is on your own.



I understand you,but living in new york ,this is just not acceptable to me. I know far too many people, especially those graduates in the social science, that are still in retail making 8 dollars an hour. This reality makes law/grad school look like a necessity to me.


Get the fuck out of New York. It's saturated --- there is no more room for you.


i disagree. as somebody with a similar major to OP in new york, i started a business in New York and tried to expand it to other states but ultimately it was not worth the time on my end because i found it to be so much easier to make money in New York City than anywhere else in the country. Literally, if you provide a good product and are nice to people, in New York, people will throw money at you. big companies, on the other hand, i'd imagine they would be unpleasant everywhere.

justadude55
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Re: Why not like College?

Postby justadude55 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:09 am

oh and i'm sorry.

college is easy to fund? try not being able to get a private loan because your parents both have no credit score to be a cosigner, and paying for college out of pocket!!!!!!!!!

in graduate school, the banks don't need a cosigner (i guess they figure you're a good risk) so at least students have an opportunity to get that higher degree without having to chip in 60-80 hour work weeks as well.

i completely disagree with college being easier to finance than graduate school.




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