Emory and Job Prospects Forum

[username99]

Someone in another forum here just alerted me to these:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=123174&start=200

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/emory-la ... ve+the+Law


As you can see, they are quite damaging to Emory. Does anyone have any insight on this??? Is it really that bad?

[MrAnon]

Employment out of any school with Emory's profile is going to be difficult. 10%-15% of students will find jobs paying 6 figures. 85%-90% of the class will be stuck in jobs that pay a lot less. Many of those will realize law will never pay as much as non-law and will return to old jobs. There simply is not a lot of demand for young lawyers and there are a glut of new grads every year to fill a limited number of positions. People get shut out of the profession and salaries stay low as a result.

[romothesavior]

Employment out of any school with Emory's profile is going to be difficult. 10%-15% of students will find jobs paying 6 figures. 85%-90% of the class will be stuck in jobs that pay a lot less. Many of those will realize law will never pay as much as non-law and will return to old jobs. There simply is not a lot of demand for young lawyers and there are a glut of new grads every year to fill a limited number of positions. People get shut out of the profession and salaries stay low as a result.

Yes and no.

You're right that no more than 1/5 Emory grads is headed to big law and many will bail from the profession. You're also right that there is a huge glut of lawyers and limited positions for graduates.

But it all comes down to expectations, and all is not lost if you miss biglaw. There are a lot of people who are happy working in non-big law jobs for less than big time salary. I'd say to OP (and anyone else considering a non-elite school: KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING YOURSELF INTO. Don't take out 6 figures of loans for a shot at biglaw, and realize that you will likely start out making well under 6 figures. Don't go if you aren't 100% positive you want to practice law, and don't go if you don't think you can handle the potential financial hardship.

[thebookcollector]

Employment out of any school with Emory's profile is going to be difficult. 10%-15% of students will find jobs paying 6 figures. 85%-90% of the class will be stuck in jobs that pay a lot less. Many of those will realize law will never pay as much as non-law and will return to old jobs. There simply is not a lot of demand for young lawyers and there are a glut of new grads every year to fill a limited number of positions. People get shut out of the profession and salaries stay low as a result.

Yes and no.

You're right that no more than 1/5 Emory grads is headed to big law and many will bail from the profession. You're also right that there is a huge glut of lawyers and limited positions for graduates.

But it all comes down to expectations, and all is not lost if you miss biglaw. There are a lot of people who are happy working in non-big law jobs for less than big time salary. I'd say to OP (and anyone else considering a non-elite school: KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING YOURSELF INTO. Don't take out 6 figures of loans for a shot at biglaw, and realize that you will likely start out making well under 6 figures. Don't go if you aren't 100% positive you want to practice law, and don't go if you don't think you can handle the potential financial hardship.

Romo is the voice of reason here. It is not expected that you'll make the big salary straight out of Emory, although it'll certainly be possible if you do well. You have to think of law as a long-term career; are you in it for the long haul? Are you sure you want to be a lawyer? If not, don't go. Emory will equip you with the tools to have a successful career, and in the long-term, how much money you make will be up to you and your abilities. Emory is certainly not a bad school to have on your resume, and odds are you'll be able to find SOME legal employment (which isn't the case for some schools).

A lot of people who start in BigLaw will ultimately make less than people who eventually start their own firm, move to a small botique, find a nice in-house gig, et cetera. You have to be in this for a long-term career. And let's not even mention the happiness that can be had from working as a local prosecutor, serving a not-for-profit, et cetera.

[thebookcollector]

Employment out of any school with Emory's profile is going to be difficult. 10%-15% of students will find jobs paying 6 figures. 85%-90% of the class will be stuck in jobs that pay a lot less. Many of those will realize law will never pay as much as non-law and will return to old jobs. There simply is not a lot of demand for young lawyers and there are a glut of new grads every year to fill a limited number of positions. People get shut out of the profession and salaries stay low as a result.

Yes and no.

You're right that no more than 1/5 Emory grads is headed to big law and many will bail from the profession. You're also right that there is a huge glut of lawyers and limited positions for graduates.

But it all comes down to expectations, and all is not lost if you miss biglaw. There are a lot of people who are happy working in non-big law jobs for less than big time salary. I'd say to OP (and anyone else considering a non-elite school: KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING YOURSELF INTO. Don't take out 6 figures of loans for a shot at biglaw, and realize that you will likely start out making well under 6 figures. Don't go if you aren't 100% positive you want to practice law, and don't go if you don't think you can handle the potential financial hardship.

I have to add one thing about financial hardship. I'm extremely debt averse, and I would encourage you to think carefully about how much money you'll spend on law school. To me, it is rarely worth an extra $100,000 for marginally better career prospects; keep that in mind. That said, the way student loans are set up these days, you won't be crushed under debt. With IBR and deferrment and forbearance, you don't have to worry that because of an educational choice you make now you may not be able to eat later. You may, however, be giving 15% of your income to Uncle Sam until you're in your mid-50s.

[username99]

What other schools is this applicable to? Anything outside of the T-14???

[romothesavior]

What other schools is this applicable to? Anything outside of the T-14???

You need to be more specific. What are you asking? If you want to know what schools give you a fantastic shot at biglaw ITE, you really should be looking a lot higher up (like T6).

[MrAnon]

Romo is the voice of reason here.

Why is my response unreasonable? Signing up for government assistance to pay your school loans while waiting 10-15 years for employment prospects in the field to blossom sounds shaky at best.

[romothesavior]

Romo is the voice of reason here.

Why is my response unreasonable? It states plain and simple truths that no one seems to bother arguing against anymore. The other posters are suggesting that taking out the debt and attending the school is a good idea based on events that may happen with employment in the far distant future (well over a decade and maybe two or three down the road) and to sign up for government assistance to pay your school debt while you pray for the employment part to work out. Keep in mind that if your goals in life also include starting a family that waiting for a career to pan out in 10 to 15 years makes things very difficult.

I agree. I think you were right on all of your points, but maybe a little harsh in your overall tone. I think we agree though. I'm not telling anyone to take out 200k in debt for a shot at biglaw, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that if someone truly wants to practice law and can get a good scholarship to Emory, then it isn't a terrible decision.

[treeey86]

There are Emory students ~ top third getting SAs at midsized regional firms which pay between slightly less to market salaries. And of course there are Emory students in the top 20% getting the Biglaw SA jobs. Emory is not T14 where top 50% can still be competitive for big time $$$ jobs, but the degree won't leave you with nothing. Even if you are below median, you will still find a job making a decent living. Probably not 6 figures ( at least initially), but enough to live on. If you truly enjoy the law, you will find a job you respect with an Emory degree.

[Aberzombie1892]

This is sort of off topic but don't think that because Emory had it this bad that all schools ranked "below" Emory had it worse.

While schools ranked T21 to schools ranked somewhere-in-the-50s have a similar employment outlook, each one has its own niche. Emory's niche was big law in GA and NY (and secondary markets around GA). When those large employers cut down on hiring - and secondary market employers stopped recruiting outside the T14 and their respective states - Emory was screwed (and still is).

Emory would be a pretty good deal at 1/2 tuition, but more than that would be like attending any other school in this group at that price (Emory, BU, BC, Notre Dame, Fordham, SMU, Tulane, American, Pepperdine, Case Western, Washington & Lee, and Wake Forest). None of them are really worth more than 1/2 (at least, to me).

Enough employers recognize Emory as being a superior school to make it worth attending (even without a good OCI - mass mailiings do work, regardless of what anyone may say).

[new2game09]

There are Emory students ~ top third getting SAs at midsized regional firms which pay between slightly less to market salaries. And of course there are Emory students in the top 20% getting the Biglaw SA jobs. Emory is not T14 where top 50% can still be competitive for big time $$$ jobs, but the degree won't leave you with nothing. Even if you are below median, you will still find a job making a decent living. Probably not 6 figures ( at least initially), but enough to live on. If you truly enjoy the law, you will find a job you respect with an Emory degree.

Where are you getting this? Emory was severely overrated, and I think the economy has brought that to light.

[new2game09]

This is sort of off topic but don't think that because Emory had it this bad that all schools ranked "below" Emory had it worse.

While schools ranked T21 to schools ranked somewhere-in-the-50s have a similar employment outlook, each one has its own niche. Emory's niche was big law in GA and NY (and secondary markets around GA). When those large employers cut down on hiring - and secondary market employers stopped recruiting outside the T14 and their respective states - Emory was screwed (and still is).

Emory would be a pretty good deal at 1/2 tuition, but more than that would be like attending any other school in this group at that price (Emory, BU, BC, Notre Dame, Fordham, SMU, Tulane, American, Pepperdine, Case Western, Washington & Lee, and Wake Forest). None of them are really worth more than 1/2 (at least, to me).

Enough employers recognize Emory as being a superior school to make it worth attending (even without a good OCI - mass mailiings do work, regardless of what anyone may say).

Since when are BU, BC, ND, and Fordham in the same group as Tulane?

[dood]

...

[kalvano]

and all is not lost if you miss biglaw. There are a lot of people who are happy working in non-big law jobs for less than big time salary.

Every lawyer friend I have, save two, have all said how awful Biglaw is. They said they are exponentially happier at a smaller firm.

[MrAnon]

Every lawyer friend I have, save two, have all said how awful Biglaw is. They said they are exponentially happier at a smaller firm.

What do you think any ex-biglaw lawyer is going to say about their new position? "My new job sucks"? "I miss biglaw"?

Any person who leaves an up-or-out job like biglaw has to adjust themselves to make believe they love whatever new position they are forced to be in once it becomes clear they cannot stick at the old place.

[kalvano]

Every lawyer friend I have, save two, have all said how awful Biglaw is. They said they are exponentially happier at a smaller firm.

What do you think any ex-biglaw lawyer is going to say about their new position? "My new job sucks"? "I miss biglaw"?

Any person who leaves an up-or-out job like biglaw has to adjust themselves to make believe they love whatever new position they are forced to be in once it becomes clear they cannot stick at the old place.

Not quite, but thanks for playing.

[rando]

There are Emory students ~ top third getting SAs at midsized regional firms which pay between slightly less to market salaries. And of course there are Emory students in the top 20% getting the Biglaw SA jobs. Emory is not T14 where top 50% can still be competitive for big time $$$ jobs, but the degree won't leave you with nothing. Even if you are below median, you will still find a job making a decent living. Probably not 6 figures ( at least initially), but enough to live on. If you truly enjoy the law, you will find a job you respect with an Emory degree.

Where are you getting this? Emory was severely overrated, and I think the economy has brought that to light.

Treeey's post is actually pretty accurate.

[new2game09]

Is biglaw in NY gonna suck? yes

Is it worth it for the opportunities it provides down the road? YES

I'm approaching biglaw the same way my friends have approached residency after they graduate from med school. You're gonna be working tons of hours with tons of stress. But the benefit of having a lot of exit options makes it worth it. That's why 99.9% law students want to get into biglaw, even though they know it's going to suck.

[MrAnon]

Whatever they think or don't think about biglaw, the main point is that your friends have room to say whatever they want, having comfortably paid off some of their loans and built some equity off the money earned in biglaw. Most Emory grads will wish they had opportunity for such a life but unfortunately that chance is foreclosed on them and if they have any measurable debt load they will be forced to go on government assistance (IBR) to repay those loans.

[new2game09]

What I've noticed is that the people who didn't get biglaw are the people saying how much they think it sucks and how "they never wanted it anyways." Mind you, these are also the people who wanted it so badly before they struck out at OCI.

[rando]

^ There are a lot of people who don't want biglaw, have never wanted it, and are qualified but choose different paths.

Is it worth it to some, if not most, law students. Yes. To anything approaching 99% not even remotely.

The thing about this thread that is silly is that Emory is no different than any other equivalently ranked school re; being worth the biglaw/debt gamble. It is kind of sad when people troll on other schools "oh snap you got Emory'd" when they go to a school ranked 2, 5, 10 spots higher and they look around their class and 50-80% of their classmates are in the same situation.

Everyone is f'd if they take out a huge amount of debt on the biglaw gamble (barring ~T6).

[Blindmelon]

My best advice about Emory is to go to UGA. Same calibre, MUCH cheaper.
If you want to work in NYC, go to Fordham, if you want GA, go to UGA. The problem with Emory, is that theres not much of a reason to go there.

[romothesavior]

is the expression "getting emory'd" in use yet?

1 oci employees is a joke, just cancel oci

lol wut? Where are you getting this 1 OCI employer stat? It is not anywhere near factually accurate.

[justadude55]

ya'll make me not want to apply to emory.

are BU, BC, Fordham, WUSTL, ND, IU all better bets professionally?