159/160 LSAT, 3.58 GPA--Looking for Boston or DC Forum

[justadude55]

AU=Brookyln/CarBOZO
GW= Fordham

i would agree this is a more accurate comparison.

Fordham and Columbia are roughly 22 spots apart.

GWU and Georgetown are roughly 12.

Cordoza and Columbia are about 46 apart.

American and Georgetown are about 40.

Not to mention, DC also gets a lot of University of Virginia, William & Mary and Washington and Lee as well as NC, all of whom are ranked better than American.

Fordham only has Columbia, NYU and Cornell and still struggles according to people who graduated recently.

[deakon10]

Really sad how it's all bout numbers...and how it's probably like 60%-40% LSAT-GPA[/quote]

Well American is also a little ridiculous with yield protection and WLs everyone who has higher than 165.
http://american.lawschoolnumbers.com/st ... Cycle=1011
prolly one of the odder graphs out there[/quote]

I don't get this... why does AU waitlist people with higher lsats than people with 165? Makes no sense to me[/quote]

To yield protect. They know those people are very likely not attending American and will attend a better school. This way it doesn't look like their yield is as low as it is.[/quote]


Stilll don't get it..why waitlist them.. why not accept them and offer them a lot of money? A lot of people would prefer full ride/half rides than to go to a better school at full price.

[deakon10]

AU=Brookyln/CarBOZO
GW= Fordham

i would agree this is a more accurate comparison.

Fordham and Columbia are roughly 22 spots apart.

GWU and Georgetown are roughly 12.

Cordoza and Columbia are about 46 apart.

American and Georgetown are about 40.

Not to mention, DC also gets a lot of University of Virginia, William & Mary and Washington and Lee as well as NC, all of whom are ranked better than American.

Fordham only has Columbia, NYU and Cornell and still struggles according to people who graduated recently.

If you compare the whole nation as competition, then obviously NYC has almost every school that probably attempts to come in. My comparison was comparing schools in the region... I consider columbia/nyu the best in nyc region and Fordham behind that. I consider GTown and GW the best in DC, with AU behind them. Thus my comparison...

Obviously NYC and DC both have all the T-14 schools and even the other T1 schools that try and compete... but I was referring to competition in the region.

Uconn is much the same in my opinion because you are competing against BU/BC/HLS for Boston jobs... (unless you want to stay in conn, in which case uconn is supreme considering most Yale will leave)

[Grizz]

Stilll don't get it..why waitlist them.. why not accept them and offer them a lot of money? A lot of people would prefer full ride/half rides than to go to a better school at full price.

Might not have money to offer.

[Grizz]

If you compare the whole nation as competition, then obviously NYC has almost every school that probably attempts to come in. My comparison was comparing schools in the region... I consider columbia/nyu the best in nyc region and Fordham behind that. I consider GTown and GW the best in DC, with AU behind them. Thus my comparison...

Obviously NYC and DC both have all the T-14 schools and even the other T1 schools that try and compete... but I was referring to competition in the region.

So... what is your point then?

[Patriot1208]

Stilll don't get it..why waitlist them.. why not accept them and offer them a lot of money? A lot of people would prefer full ride/half rides than to go to a better school at full price.

Might not have money to offer.

Most of these people yield protected will also get a lot of money from higher ranked schools. If someone is really into a school they have ways of showing it and should be able to get the money they deserve.

[frecklesmclean0002]

I got into AU with 3.7 and 155 so I really don't think you'll have a problem, its all about what you bring to the table so do a PS about how you want to save the world and you'll do fine. I agree that you'll be competing with T-14 who have their eye on D.C.but keep in mind that only is valid over the summer when the Ivy league types have the time to come to D.C. During the regular semester you're one of the only options in town for externships and internships and the market is large enough to accommodate G-Town, GU and American during the fall and spring. The best thing about AU is the quality of professors you get. All those fab academics only in town for a short time are more than happy to come to AU and teach a semester or a seminar.

So yes, American is the lowest branch on the D.C. tree but the advantages of being here year-round are ours along with the connections of our professors can provide from being hooked up in the D.C. legal network. So while the T-14 rules in the summer, the rest of the year is ours and G-Town and GW don't take all the spots. Once you have your foot in the door D.C. is just like the rest of the legal world; its all about networking to get a job. So if its choice between you and your year-long work for a D.C. firm of government dept. vs. the fleeting memory of a T-14 summer intern, I wouldn't under sell AU's opportunities.

What the hell are you talking about?

There is no "summer advantage" for T14 schools.

[/quote] Summer associate positions normally lead to permanent offers with firms; lulz @ the above[/quote]

I'm sorry didn't realize you were slow so I'll spell it out- SUMMER=FREE TIME so little law students at top 14 schools can come to D.C. for jobs at nice law firms. FALL and SPRING= SCHOOL TIME, only students IN D.C. can work here. Hope I didn't lose you on the way if so get the notes from a classmate.

Don't know what market you're taking about when you say "normal" but jobs come from knowing people here in D.C. (it's that whole 'networking' thing you keep hearing your professors talk about)

[Grizz]

I'm sorry didn't realize you were slow so I'll spell it out- SUMMER=FREE TIME so little law students at top 14 schools can come to D.C. for jobs at nice law firms. FALL and SPRING= SCHOOL TIME, only students IN D.C. can work here. Hope I didn't lose you on the way if so get the notes from a classmate.

Don't know what market you're taking about when you say "normal" but jobs come from knowing people here in D.C. (it's that whole 'networking' thing you keep hearing your professors talk about)

Summer =/= free time.

Big law jobs (which you want so you can pay off your extravagant debts) come from OCI. Which lead to Summer Associate positions after 2L. That's where you get offers at big firms from. Big firms do not have "fall associate" classes. Therefore, summer is not a "fleeting memory," you uneducated buffoon. It is where you get many, many firm jobs. Incidentally, American placed 15% into big law jobs in the boom years. Lulz.

Also, why wouldn't GULC and GW people get the same benefit of networking? Oh wait, they do. And people generally prefer GULC and GW to American students. So again, lulz.

[kalvano]

I'm sorry didn't realize you were slow so I'll spell it out- SUMMER=FREE TIME so little law students at top 14 schools can come to D.C. for jobs at nice law firms. FALL and SPRING= SCHOOL TIME, only students IN D.C. can work here. Hope I didn't lose you on the way if so get the notes from a classmate.

Don't know what market you're taking about when you say "normal" but jobs come from knowing people here in D.C. (it's that whole 'networking' thing you keep hearing your professors talk about)

Allow me to clarify. My confusion doesn't stem from misunderstanding what you are saying. It stems from the fact that someone can be so monumentally stupid and still be able to form sentences and have the brainpower to know how to access the Internet. Your understanding of the way the legal hiring market works is astonishingly awful. I mean, Uwe Boll movie awful.

Those summer positions the T14'ers are enjoying in D.C. are what, the vast majority of the time, lead to permanent employment.

Also, it doesn't matter how much time you spend in D.C., a degree from Harvard / Yale / Stanford / etc. will 99.9% of the time open more doors than the person you chatted up at a bar association mixer. Meaning you can spend all summer and the school year kissing all the ass you want, and your JD from American will still not be worth what the JD of someone from Stanford who has never set foot in D.C. before will be worth.

[frecklesmclean0002]

Wrong wrong and embarrassingly wrong. You need to live in this city before you try to assume how 99.9% of anything works here. You gripe about the risk of debt in this economy and then bank on being a nobody in a city where everybody is connected but you. I'll be at the DOJ all fall while you're waiting in line with your fingers crossed that your number gets called for an interview. Have fun using that diploma as a law professor at Southwestern if you really try to make it in D.C. with the assumption that your degree will magically get your resume on the table. Oh wait, they already filled the position with someone who already works for them and they didn't have to wait on to graduate and move cross country. Stay in your local small bar market before holding your breath for a government agency to be amazed at your lack of experience and connections. You’re dumb enough to not figure out when to give up and breathe so bring a safety buddy to slap you when you starting passing out, I'm sure there are plenty of volunteers.

[Grizz]

Wrong wrong and embarrassingly wrong. You need to live in this city before you try to assume how 99.9% of anything works here. You gripe about the risk of debt in this economy and then bank on being a nobody in a city where everybody is connected but you. I'll be at the DOJ all fall while you're waiting in line with your fingers crossed that your number gets called for an interview. Have fun using that diploma as a law professor at Southwestern if you really try to make it in D.C. with the assumption that your degree will magically get your resume on the table. Oh wait, they already filled the position with someone who already works for them and they didn't have to wait on to graduate and move cross country. Stay in your local small bar market before holding your breath for a government agency to be amazed at your lack of experience and connections. You’re dumb enough to not figure out when to give up and breathe so bring a safety buddy to slap you when you starting passing out, I'm sure there are plenty of volunteers.

lolno

[Grizz]

Oh for anyone who cares, frecklesmcclean2002 did start this lulzy gem of a thread

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&start=25

[kalvano]

Just to clarify here, Freckles McFuckstick is banking on the fact that mere proximity will allow him some sort of magical "in" in one of the most saturated and sought-after markets in the USA. In fact, after NYC, D.C. is probably the most desired market to be in. Which means he will be competing with everyone who wants to go to D.C. from the T14, plus he is at the 4th-ranked school that is directly in that market. 6th, if you count W&M and W&L. So basically, he is competing with the entire T14, a fair amount of people from Vandy / UT / etc. who are near the top of their class and have a decent shot at D.C., then GWU, W&L, W&M, then George Mason, and then American.

But he will definitely beat out those Harvard / Penn / UChi bastards because he lives there.

Right. Good plan.


Also, he wants to do civil rights international law. Someone's elevator doesn't go all the way to the top floor.

[Grizz]

Just to clarify here, Freckles McFuckstick is banking on the fact that mere proximity will allow him some sort of magical "in" in one of the most saturated and sought-after markets in the USA. In fact, after NYC, D.C. is probably the most desired market to be in. Which means he will be competing with everyone who wants to go to D.C. from the T14, plus he is at the 4th-ranked school that is directly in that market. 6th, if you count W&M and W&L. So basically, he is competing with the entire T14, a fair amount of people from Vandy / UT / etc. who are near the top of their class and have a decent shot at D.C., then GWU, W&L, W&M, then George Mason, and then American.

But he will definitely beat out those Harvard / Penn / UChoi bastards because he lives there.

Right. Good plan.

She should have gone to Pepperdine and lived with her mom. Probably would have been a better plan (seriously).

[ToTransferOrNot]

FWIW, I know people in the top 5% at UChi who only got one or two offers in DC.

But yeah, proximity will do it. Because so many biglaw DC firms hire local law students during the school year.

Vicinity WILL do it for smaller firms, no doubt there. But that is not what is being discussed.

OP: You are trying to break in to a field of law that is basically impenetrable. Even among firms that have soft IP practices, they want their IP folks to be able to work with patents too - there are some exceptions, but not many. You will not be one of the exceptions from any of the schools you are looking at. Your only option is to retake the LSAT and get 170+. Soft IP aside, none of the schools you mentioned are worth going to unless you have a full ride, and even that would be a bit of a tough call. Depends on what your opportunity cost is.

[concurrent fork]

FWIW, I know people in the top 5% at UChi who only got one or two offers in DC.

But yeah, proximity will do it. Because so many biglaw DC firms hire local law students during the school year.

Vicinity WILL do it for smaller firms, no doubt there. But that is not what is being discussed.

OP: You are trying to break in to a field of law that is basically impenetrable. Even among firms that have soft IP practices, they want their IP folks to be able to work with patents too - there are some exceptions, but not many. You will not be one of the exceptions from any of the schools you are looking at. Your only option is to retake the LSAT and get 170+. Soft IP aside, none of the schools you mentioned are worth going to unless you have a full ride, and even that would be a bit of a tough call. Depends on what your opportunity cost is.

+1. Many HLS students also struck out in DC this year (smaller class sizes and ridiculous competition).

Your best bet is to up your LSAT 5 points and shoot for BC/BU. There is a significant emerging tech/biotech client base in Boston, and most firms here have a hand in that life cycle. This is the closest you will get to "technology law" without a patent background.

[username99]

How about Catholic?

[Grizz]

How about Catholic?

Bad idea. Expensive and not prestigious. Bad job prospects.

[deakon10]

I think the Freckles dude talking about networking has a good point... but with limited capacity. I think it's one of those "go to T2 and do law review+top 15%" versus T1, and be a median student arguments.

Even at a school like AU (which is at the top end of T2), you'll have to work your ass off and network your ass off to be in competition with T14 students.

But it IS possible.. obviously the power that networking has is far greater than the power of a Harvard diploma... afterall, if you're so-and-so-recruiter's best friend you can get a job easier than competing as one of 1,000+ T14 applicants. However, I think very few people have the true ability (or will actually exercise it fully) enough to get this advantage.. simply having drinks or talking to someone occasionally will not give you a significant advantage over a T14 student. Being in the area helps...but if it comes down to a recruiter having 1 position to fill and 200+ applicants, I'm pretty sure they are going to go with the top candidate with the most reputable degree, as opposed to that buddy of theirs that they have been hanging out with that is only pulling median grades.

Conclusion: If you're in a saturated market like DC.. From a non-T14 school, you have to either
A) have that rare polished, full-fledged networking ability that will get you on first name/buddy basis with a recruiter
B) be top of your class AND law review

Otherwise.. that Top 5 guy is gonna come and snag the job away.

Honestly, I think it is a LOT easier to bring up your LSAT score 3-5 points and get yourself into a better school, than it is to pull top 15% of your class ANd be on law review (meaning, you basically have to end off L1 at top 15% and remain there upon graduation).

Moral: "Go Big or Go Home"

[justadude55]

that's not necessarily true. i know many t-14 graduates who are unemployed and former tier 4's who are multimillionaires in law. if you can get into a better school do it, but at the end of the day talent will prevail... a better school will just give it an opportunity to prevail quicker and with a better starting salary.

but i do agree, it's easier to improve an LSAT five points from a 160 than it will be to be in the top 15%. At a given law school, you gotta figure 75% of people are shooting for the top 15%, and why do you assume you're better than 80% of them? after all your past performance led you to the same starting point.....

[deakon10]

Yea.. the difference between 160 and 165 is like 10 questions. That's less than 3 per section... Very do-able, esp if you are willing to do another 20-30 practice exams.

I wouldn't go as far as to say 80% of classes want top 15%... i'd say a good percentage of students just want to pass. unfortunately, I feel like a lot of students don't realize the significance of grades til they are graduating and complaining bout their inability to find jobs.. like people from Brooklyn Law School that have threads saying their degree is useless and BLS is a waste of time and money... c'mon..what was ur rank? I know PLENTY of BLS people that are soooo successful. And I think there's a pretty big correlation too.. let's assume that you learn the same amount whether ur top 15% and ur bottom 15%...firms see the fact that u had the motivation and aggression/drive to go top 15%..think that's a character trait they look for...but hey, I guess this is a whole different discussion


OP: I am in your boat.. my LSAT is at 160 but I realize that the best game plan is for me to bring it up at least 5 points to a 165. I am delaying my exam from oct to dec for this.. Your GPA is pretty good, so if you bring up your exam to 165 then you can be competitive at BU/BC and GW instead of UConn and AU

[Grizz]

if you can get into a better school do it, but at the end of the day talent will prevail... a better school will just give it an opportunity to prevail quicker and with a better starting salary.

Not if you don't even get a legal job to begin with.

[deakon10]

Agreed.. from my understanding jobs come from OCI mostly.. and only top schools seem to have good OCI

I feel like moreso after this conversation, tiers should really be broken up to:
T1 top 14 schools
T2 15-50
T3 50-100
T4 rest

[Grizz]

Agreed.. from my understanding jobs come from OCI mostly.. and only top schools seem to have good OCI

I feel like moreso after this conversation, tiers should really be broken up to:
T1 top 14 schools
T2 15-50
T3 50-100
T4 rest

TCR is

HYS
CCN
Rest of the T13
T17/18
T30ish
The rest

[tea_drinker]

I am not sure if this was discussed, but what do people think in comparing Northeastern U to AU? I know their ranks are far apart, but Northeastern U is arguably the 4th best law school in Boston after HLS, BU, and BC; while AU is also the 4th best law school in DC area after GULC, GW, GMU.