Law school with low overall ranking but good IP program Forum

[yggun]

I have a BSME (Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering) and am thinking about going to law school to become a patent attorney/litigator.

I received my BS in US, but being an ESL I am having a hard time even getting a 160 on LSAT practice exams (I have been consistently getting somewhere in the 150's). Although I graduated magna cum laude, President's Honor, and my undergrad cum GPA of 3.76 is viewed high in engineering, considering low LSAT score I could only imagine having a shot at T3 or T4 law schools. My questions are:

1. I read someone's post saying that it is very difficult to get a job unless you are one of the top graduates from T1 or T2 law schools. I am wondering if this is true for patent attorneys as well because 1) if it is, I really do not see any point in going to T3/T4 law school, spend $40,000~$50,000 a year for 3 years but find myself getting no job offer upon graduation and 2) I heard that demand for patent attorneys in US is very high so I was thinking patent attorneys from T3/T4 law schools may still get a few job offers.

2. Any idea a JD from strong program in a certain field like Patent/IP may put me in a better situation when I look for a job even though I am from T3/T4 law school? I am asking this because I have been thinking about applying to Santa Clara University law school which is located next to Silicon Valley and is ranked low overall but is claimed to have a strong IP program (its IP had been ranked among the top 10 by US N&W Report just until last year), but I heard that "law schools with high overall but low IP ranking are better than ones with low overall but high IP ranking" and SCU certainly is the latter.

Thank you all for taking your time and I look forward to reading your replies.

[TCScrutinizer]

I have a BSME (Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering) and am thinking about going to law school to become a patent attorney/litigator.

I received my BS in US, but being an ESL I am having a hard time even getting a 160 on LSAT practice exams (I have been consistently getting somewhere in the 150's). Although I graduated magna cum laude, President's Honor, and my undergrad cum GPA of 3.76 is viewed high in engineering, considering low LSAT score I could only imagine having a shot at T3 or T4 law schools. My questions are:

1. I read someone's post saying that it is very difficult to get a job unless you are one of the top graduates from T1 or T2 law schools. I am wondering if this is true for patent attorneys as well because 1) if it is, I really do not see any point in going to T3/T4 law school, spend $40,000~$50,000 a year for 3 years but find myself getting no job offer upon graduation and 2) I heard that demand for patent attorneys in US is very high so I was thinking patent attorneys from T3/T4 law schools may still get a few job offers.

2. Any idea a JD from strong program in a certain field like Patent/IP may put me in a better situation when I look for a job even though I am from T3/T4 law school? I am asking this because I have been thinking about applying to Santa Clara University law school which is located next to Silicon Valley and is ranked low overall but is claimed to have a strong IP program (its IP had been ranked among the top 10 by US N&W Report just until last year), but I heard that "law schools with high overall but low IP ranking are better than ones with low overall but high IP ranking" and SCU certainly is the latter.

Thank you all for taking your time and I look forward to reading your replies.

Allow me to suggest the University of Houston. It's not for everyone, but it's in the T2, a pretty decent all-around school at ~55 (too lazy to look up the actual list), and it has a very well thought-of IP program. All but one of the IP programs ranked more highly than Houston in the last USNWR specialty ranking were in the T14, and all in the T20. I applied there and I can say that there were a lot of prospectives interested in IP work.

[MrAnon]

Your suspicions about the so called IP rankings are correct. They are baloney. The overall reputation of the school is all that matters. A couple points:

1. the specialty "rankings" like IP do not consider the top schools when the rankings are put together. They only consider lower schools. Nobody knows how Harvard's IP program stacks up to Santa Clara's for sure, but I can give you a pretty good guess that it blows it out of the water in terms of professor background and student placement. The specialty rankings are a way to give some press to the lower ranked schools and keep them involved in the US News game. After all, they want some skin in the game too, right? If you have 10 speciality rankings and 10 schools in each ranking then voila--you have 100 different schools that have some kind of impressive ranking to promote.

2. Santa Clara's location next to silicon valley is largely meaningless. They may have some ease in attracting professors who have worked for tech companies but that is where it ends really. If Apple's legal department needs to recruit or get an intern, where do you think they will go? Santa Clara or Stanford? It isn't much of a debate. New York Law School is in the middle of manhattan but their career placement rate at large manhattan firms is worse than abysmal.

3. You're LSAT score isn't so hot. You are having trouble with English. Don't worry about it. There are a zillion other things you can do and be successful in.

[im_blue]

.

[thesybarite]

I can't help wondering though, if schools with specialty programs such as Ip have more links to the Ip arena/jobs/companies? As opposed to schools ranked at a similar level without the program. This is pure speculation however, but it seems logical to me.

Also, yggun - have you done the powerscore bibles? They're LSAT gold. And check out pithypike's guide on here if you haven't already. Anyone who gets a degree in a second language has substantial abilities...you can definitely improve your current scores, and your choices.
For what it's worth, in the current market I also think it's worth considering scholarships at lower ranked schools (like ones with your Ip program).
Lastly - a school with an Ip program is going to be stimulating, more enjoyable, and quite possibly easier to get better grades in because you may already be familiar with some of the concepts and applications.

Good luck =)

[Richie Tenenbaum]

I can't help wondering though, if schools with specialty programs such as Ip have more links to the Ip arena/jobs/companies? As opposed to schools ranked at a similar level without the program. This is pure speculation however, but it seems logical to me.

Also, yggun - have you done the powerscore bibles? They're LSAT gold. And check out pithypike's guide on here if you haven't already. Anyone who gets a degree in a second language has substantial abilities...you can definitely improve your current scores, and your choices.
For what it's worth, in the current market I also think it's worth considering scholarships at lower ranked schools (like ones with your Ip program).
Lastly - a school with an Ip program is going to be stimulating, more enjoyable, and quite possibly easier to get better grades in because you may already be familiar with some of the concepts and applications.

Good luck =)

1) What schools don't have an IP program?

2) Everyone will be taking basically all the same classes the first year...

[thesybarite]

I don't know about ip programs, only a little about other specialty programs that I'm interested in. While most unis do offer generic first year courses (some, like NU also have options), I think for the remaining 2 years I'll be so much happier taking courses I'm interested in and later want to work in. The number of courses in a particular subject field differ vastly between schools. I just imagined ip would be the same.

[StrictlyLiable]

The University of Akron

[thequest]

1. the specialty "rankings" like IP do not consider the top schools when the rankings are put together. They only consider lower schools.

This simply isn’t true. 6 of the top 10 schools in the IP rankings are T14. Here is a list of the U.S. News 2010 Rankings:

1. Berkley
2. Stanford
3. George Washington
4. Boston U
5. NYU
6. Columbia
7. Michigan
8. University of Huston
9. Duke / Franklin Pierce Law Center

I agree that the specialty rankings are a joke and OP shouldn’t be concerned with them while choosing a law school.

OP in your situation you might consider a school like Chicago Kent. It has a good IP reputation, it’s a T2 school and it has ED which means you’ll likely get in if you ED to their program. On the other hand, think long and hard about this as a school like Kent is tied to the Chicago market which is dead at the moment.

[Spinozist21]

Your suspicions about the so called IP rankings are correct. They are baloney. The overall reputation of the school is all that matters. A couple points:

1. the specialty "rankings" like IP do not consider the top schools when the rankings are put together. They only consider lower schools. Nobody knows how Harvard's IP program stacks up to Santa Clara's for sure, but I can give you a pretty good guess that it blows it out of the water in terms of professor background and student placement. The specialty rankings are a way to give some press to the lower ranked schools and keep them involved in the US News game. After all, they want some skin in the game too, right? If you have 10 speciality rankings and 10 schools in each ranking then voila--you have 100 different schools that have some kind of impressive ranking to promote.

2. Santa Clara's location next to silicon valley is largely meaningless. They may have some ease in attracting professors who have worked for tech companies but that is where it ends really. If Apple's legal department needs to recruit or get an intern, where do you think they will go? Santa Clara or Stanford? It isn't much of a debate. New York Law School is in the middle of manhattan but their career placement rate at large manhattan firms is worse than abysmal.

3. You're LSAT score isn't so hot. You are having trouble with English. Don't worry about it. There are a zillion other things you can do and be successful in.

You are an idiot first of all. And second of all you are an ignorant, arrogant idiot.

They dont take top schools into account in the rankings? Do you even do your homework?

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... thcare-law

Look there...Georgetown is ranked. So is U of MN....and Boston.

All of those are in the top 25.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... operty-law

Intellectual property...Berkeley, Stanford, GW, Boston, NYU, Columbia, Michigan, Duke....last time I checked all of those are top law schools, correct?

I could go on, but I have already proven my point.

[IAFG]

If English is holding you back on the LSAT, it will likely hold you back in law school exams as well. I would be nervous to go to law school in a second language if you're not near-native in ability.

[2011Law]

If English is holding you back on the LSAT, it will likely hold you back in law school exams as well. I would be nervous to go to law school in a second language if you're not near-native in ability.

My thoughts exactly.

[MrAnon]

Your suspicions about the so called IP rankings are correct. They are baloney. The overall reputation of the school is all that matters. A couple points:

1. the specialty "rankings" like IP do not consider the top schools when the rankings are put together. They only consider lower schools. Nobody knows how Harvard's IP program stacks up to Santa Clara's for sure, but I can give you a pretty good guess that it blows it out of the water in terms of professor background and student placement. The specialty rankings are a way to give some press to the lower ranked schools and keep them involved in the US News game. After all, they want some skin in the game too, right? If you have 10 speciality rankings and 10 schools in each ranking then voila--you have 100 different schools that have some kind of impressive ranking to promote.

2. Santa Clara's location next to silicon valley is largely meaningless. They may have some ease in attracting professors who have worked for tech companies but that is where it ends really. If Apple's legal department needs to recruit or get an intern, where do you think they will go? Santa Clara or Stanford? It isn't much of a debate. New York Law School is in the middle of manhattan but their career placement rate at large manhattan firms is worse than abysmal.

3. You're LSAT score isn't so hot. You are having trouble with English. Don't worry about it. There are a zillion other things you can do and be successful in.

You are an idiot first of all. And second of all you are an ignorant, arrogant idiot.

They dont take top schools into account in the rankings? Do you even do your homework?

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... thcare-law

Look there...Georgetown is ranked. So is U of MN....and Boston.

All of those are in the top 25.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... operty-law

Intellectual property...Berkeley, Stanford, GW, Boston, NYU, Columbia, Michigan, Duke....last time I checked all of those are top law schools, correct?

I could go on, but I have already proven my point.

GW, Boston, NYU are not the best schools in their respective cities. You have to draw the line somewhere on what is a top school.

If you look at the specialty rankings over the last 10 years you see that they change a great deal every couple years. http://www.ipmall.info/hosted_resources ... nkings.pdf Just a few stalwarts like Stanford show up repeatedly. IP powerhouse Cardozo dominated in the first half of this decade and Columbia was not even on the list. What happened? How accurate could any of this be? Why are FOUR schools tied for 4th in 2007? Four? really?

Harvard isn't on the list. Its IP program must be a disgrace. What IS an IP program? Copyright class, Trademark class & ??? An IP Center?

[BeautifulSW]

The OP might want to take advantage of an opportunity open pretty much only to IP types (and would-be tax types) to try before he buys. He might want to take the patent bar first and work for a patent agent firm for a year to see if he really likes IP.

[nleefer]

I have a BSME (Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering) and am thinking about going to law school to become a patent attorney/litigator.

I received my BS in US, but being an ESL I am having a hard time even getting a 160 on LSAT practice exams (I have been consistently getting somewhere in the 150's). Although I graduated magna cum laude, President's Honor, and my undergrad cum GPA of 3.76 is viewed high in engineering, considering low LSAT score I could only imagine having a shot at T3 or T4 law schools. My questions are:

1. I read someone's post saying that it is very difficult to get a job unless you are one of the top graduates from T1 or T2 law schools. I am wondering if this is true for patent attorneys as well because 1) if it is, I really do not see any point in going to T3/T4 law school, spend $40,000~$50,000 a year for 3 years but find myself getting no job offer upon graduation and 2) I heard that demand for patent attorneys in US is very high so I was thinking patent attorneys from T3/T4 law schools may still get a few job offers.

2. Any idea a JD from strong program in a certain field like Patent/IP may put me in a better situation when I look for a job even though I am from T3/T4 law school? I am asking this because I have been thinking about applying to Santa Clara University law school which is located next to Silicon Valley and is ranked low overall but is claimed to have a strong IP program (its IP had been ranked among the top 10 by US N&W Report just until last year), but I heard that "law schools with high overall but low IP ranking are better than ones with low overall but high IP ranking" and SCU certainly is the latter.

Thank you all for taking your time and I look forward to reading your replies.

If you can score at or above 160 on the LSAT you should certainly be able to attend a T2 school like SCU. I did my first year at SCU (before transferring) and can say that it was an excellent experience. The school is fairly well regarded in the area (though obviously not on par with Stanford or Berkeley), and if you do well you will have opportunities to get a job.

That said, a T2 school is obviously a bigger risk than T14. If you do well and end up at the top of your class you will be able to get a job through SCU OCI or transfer to a better school like UCLA/Berkeley/Hastings. However, if you do not do well (outside the top 25-30%) OCI will get you nothing and you will have a hard time getting a high paying job right out of school.

I would ask yourself how much you want to be an attorney and why. If you can come up with good answers to those questions, SCU may be a good place to go. It's a nice, welcoming law school, and I feel like I received an excellent first year's education there.

[09042014]

The OP might want to take advantage of an opportunity open pretty much only to IP types (and would-be tax types) to try before he buys. He might want to take the patent bar first and work for a patent agent firm for a year to see if he really likes IP.

And then do part time law school so he has a job to come back to.

[angiej]

I was surprised to find per the USN&WR rankings that John Marshall in Chicago's IP Law rankings were actually higher than Chicago-Kent.

[09042014]

I was surprised to find per the USN&WR rankings that John Marshall in Chicago's IP Law rankings were actually higher than Chicago-Kent.

That's an indictment of the ratings not of ChiKent.

[ToTransferOrNot]

I was surprised to find per the USN&WR rankings that John Marshall in Chicago's IP Law rankings were actually higher than Chicago-Kent.

Which is pretty good illustration of how lulzy the speciality rankings are.

[angiej]

I was surprised to find per the USN&WR rankings that John Marshall in Chicago's IP Law rankings were actually higher than Chicago-Kent.

Which is pretty good illustration of how lulzy the speciality rankings are.

I'm not entirely sure on the methodology of the specialty rankings. Obviously admissions numbers, matriculation rates, etc. can't be factored into the specialty rankings. So how are they calculated? There are quite a few brow-raising schools on several of the specialty rankings schools which makes me question the sense in all this.

[JG Hall]

If English is holding you back on the LSAT, it will likely hold you back in law school exams as well. I would be nervous to go to law school in a second language if you're not near-native in ability.

My thoughts exactly.

This.
Everyone wants to take the classes with the most LLMs, because although they're the most annoying students in the class, they pad the curve.

[Bosque]

I was surprised to find per the USN&WR rankings that John Marshall in Chicago's IP Law rankings were actually higher than Chicago-Kent.

Which is pretty good illustration of how lulzy the speciality rankings are.

I'm not entirely sure on the methodology of the specialty rankings. Obviously admissions numbers, matriculation rates, etc. can't be factored into the specialty rankings. So how are they calculated? There are quite a few brow-raising schools on several of the specialty rankings schools which makes me question the sense in all this.

If I remember correctly, the only methodology is a survey. USNWR asks the people they survey who they think has a good _________ program, and then they give an answer. Seeing as how most people know jack all about any particular school's IP program, it really has more to do with how good the publicity department of the school is at getting pamphlets about their programs out than about the strength of the programs themselves.