columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

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missbusiness
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:09 am

columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby missbusiness » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:04 am

any jd/mba students out there at either school? im looking at both because i want to stay in nyc .... i hope to go into business development/strategy/entrepreneurship with my jd/mba so i know 100% that i wont be practicing law.

considerations -
* NYU has in integrated program and application process... JD/MBA association, etc. Columbia does not.
* Columbia has the better B-school.
* For someone that has no intention of practicing law, the somewhat less competitive enviroment /culture of NYU might be more attractive.

i would love to hear the opinions of jd/mba or law school students about the culture at each school, especially if you applied to both, why you chose one over the other.

thanks!

spondee
Posts: 462
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:53 pm

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby spondee » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:19 am

Why are you wasting time/money on a law degree then? Just go to Columbia's (or a better) MBA program...

missbusiness
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:09 am

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby missbusiness » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:31 am

i dont consider it a waste of time. ive thought about it and spoken to many people who have either done law school or the jd/mba. time is not an issue for me...money is not an issue for me. therefore, i think there's more upside than downside in getting both. i think it'll be enriching ..i'll know more about contracts, negotiations, law & business...and because i want to be in some strategy/negotiations/sales role, i think its the perfect way to build a skill set and obtain the credentials to get me where i want to be.

trust me i know its not the norm and i know that most people wont understand why or agree that it makes sense. but its a personal decision that i doubt i will regret 10 years down the line.....

with regards to the question i posted - do you have any thoughts or experiences to share that would help with my decision making process?

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby imchuckbass58 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:40 am

I am a Columbia JD/MBA.

I think Columbia probably has a slightly better program for what you want to do. That said, there are very few JD/MBAs at Columbia and consequently there are fewer resources to deal with the logistical problems that arise with being a JD/MBA. I would not put too much stock into the "NYU is chiller" idea. I've been very happy with the people at both CLS and CBS.

I assume you've thought this out, but I would echo the skepticism of the previous poster. If I knew I wasn't going to do law, I sure as hell would not be getting the JD. The relevance to strategy/business development is minimal if not non-existent. I think you can make more of a case if you wanted to do finance, but even then it's a stretch. Maybe money is not an issue, but I would not spend two extra years getting a degree I would not use.

spondee
Posts: 462
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:53 pm

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby spondee » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:43 am

Can't really help with your main question. NYU's definitely a great law school. I find that it's not competitive and that people are friendly and helpful. But students I know at CLS say the same about their school. To determine the better environment, you'll definitely want to visit both. I don't really know anything about MBA programs, though; but I always had the impression that while the law schools are peer schools, Columbia's MBA program has a definite edge over NYU's.

missbusiness
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:09 am

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby missbusiness » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:58 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:I am a Columbia JD/MBA.

I think Columbia probably has a slightly better program for what you want to do. That said, there are very few JD/MBAs at Columbia and consequently there are fewer resources to deal with the logistical problems that arise with being a JD/MBA. I would not put too much stock into the "NYU is chiller" idea. I've been very happy with the people at both CLS and CBS.

I assume you've thought this out, but I would echo the skepticism of the previous poster. If I knew I wasn't going to do law, I sure as hell would not be getting the JD. The relevance to strategy/business development is minimal if not non-existent. I think you can make more of a case if you wanted to do finance, but even then it's a stretch. Maybe money is not an issue, but I would not spend two extra years getting a degree I would not use.



"Sure as hell" is pretty strong! I'd be very curious to know what motivates your extreme opinion? I did toy with the idea of testing out of foundation courses in the business school so I could take more law school/business electives, but concluded that it wouldn't be the same experience. I know the stats are not in my favor - there just aren't a lot of people who do the JD/MBA...period. But I figured not only would I stand out if I were seeking employment in the future, but it would also be an invaluable asset when I chose to pursue entrepreneurial endeavors. I'm very curious to hear why you sure as hell wouldn't pursue it! lol

missbusiness
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:09 am

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby missbusiness » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:00 pm

spondee wrote:Can't really help with your main question. NYU's definitely a great law school. I find that it's not competitive and that people are friendly and helpful. But students I know at CLS say the same about their school. To determine the better environment, you'll definitely want to visit both. I don't really know anything about MBA programs, though; but I always had the impression that while the law schools are peer schools, Columbia's MBA program has a definite edge over NYU's.



thanks. i do plan to visit this Fall since i live in NYC. That will be a huge determinant im sure.

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby imchuckbass58 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:14 pm

missbusiness wrote:"Sure as hell" is pretty strong! I'd be very curious to know what motivates your extreme opinion? I did toy with the idea of testing out of foundation courses in the business school so I could take more law school/business electives, but concluded that it wouldn't be the same experience. I know the stats are not in my favor - there just aren't a lot of people who do the JD/MBA...period. But I figured not only would I stand out if I were seeking employment in the future, but it would also be an invaluable asset when I chose to pursue entrepreneurial endeavors. I'm very curious to hear why you sure as hell wouldn't pursue it! lol


Well, here's my rationale. I know some of these aren't concerns for you, but take from it what you will:

-A JD/MBA is very expensive. Even if you have the cash to pay for it, I can think of better things to spend the money on.
-A JD/MBA takes a very long time. Even if you're not anxious to get out and start earning cash, it may be frustrating to have two extra years of school left even though you know what you want to do and only really need two years of school to do it.
-The benefit of a JD/MBA (both personally and in the eyes of employers) is virtually nil outside of transactional law, strategy consulting, and perhaps certain types of finance (real estate and bankruptcy come to mind).
-In certain fields, a JD/MBA can make you stand out in a bad way. A JD/MBA generally gives employers the impression that you can't decide between law and business. Sometimes, this is ok, as when you can articulate a reason that your interests really lie at the intersection (i.e., being an M&A lawyer, or doing restructuring from the financial side). Sometimes, this comes across as a lack of focus and commitment for fields unrelated to law (i.e., marketing, business development, social enterprise, etc).
-The archetypical lawyer actuall makes a pretty terrible entrepreneur. Lawyers are very risk-averse and analytical. Entrepreneurs need to be comfortable with risk and creative/constructive.

missbusiness
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:09 am

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby missbusiness » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:56 pm

Thanks . Those are all great points and definitely things I've considered over the past few months!

-A JD/MBA is very expensive. Even if you have the cash to pay for it, I can think of better things to spend the money on.
I would like to get scholarships! NYU offers a full scholarship program for non-traditional law students like myself. Obviously free is best. There are also a few diversity scholarships that I can apply for that would allay the costs of the 3-4years of school...
-A JD/MBA takes a very long time. Even if you're not anxious to get out and start earning cash, it may be frustrating to have two extra years of school left even though you know what you want to do and only really need two years of school to do it.
Agreed. At first the idea of 4 years of school (starting at ate 28) scared me. In school until I'm 32! Yikes!!! But if I see the light at the end of the tunnel, I think I can push through :)
-The benefit of a JD/MBA (both personally and in the eyes of employers) is virtually nil outside of transactional law, strategy consulting, and perhaps certain types of finance (real estate and bankruptcy come to mind).
My background is in finance and Real Estate is one of the fields I'm very interested in. Because my interests are varied, I figure a 3-4yr timeline to hone in on the one I want to pursue the most is not a bad thing. I'll earn a degree in the meantime, meet lots of new people, and I enjoy school so I'd enjoy learning the law even if I dont practice it.
-The archetypical lawyer actuall makes a pretty terrible entrepreneur. Lawyers are very risk-averse and analytical. Entrepreneurs need to be comfortable with risk and creative/constructive.
I hear you on that.... I think the benefit of having both components of education/background (mba and jd) is that I'll be be better at my job because I learned to think like a lawyer. To be more analytical and detail-focused and to critically look at various points of view -- skills that will pay "dividends" in the business world.

If you think I'm off base with any of my comments, I'd love to know.

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby imchuckbass58 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:23 pm

Yeah, I mean I'm not sure there's an objective "off-base" here. It sounds like you understand the concerns and are okay with them, so I'm not going to tell you you're wrong.

The only thing I would keep in mind is that there are very few scholarships for business students (in fact, I don't think I've ever heard of the school giving any), and at least at CLS, sizable (read: greater than half tuition) scholarships are hard to come by and require really good numbers. But it's doable.

Pip
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:30 pm

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby Pip » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:14 pm

missbusiness wrote:Thanks . Those are all great points and definitely things I've considered over the past few months!

-A JD/MBA is very expensive. Even if you have the cash to pay for it, I can think of better things to spend the money on.
I would like to get scholarships! NYU offers a full scholarship program for non-traditional law students like myself. Obviously free is best. There are also a few diversity scholarships that I can apply for that would allay the costs of the 3-4years of school...
-A JD/MBA takes a very long time. Even if you're not anxious to get out and start earning cash, it may be frustrating to have two extra years of school left even though you know what you want to do and only really need two years of school to do it.
Agreed. At first the idea of 4 years of school (starting at ate 28) scared me. In school until I'm 32! Yikes!!! But if I see the light at the end of the tunnel, I think I can push through :)
-The benefit of a JD/MBA (both personally and in the eyes of employers) is virtually nil outside of transactional law, strategy consulting, and perhaps certain types of finance (real estate and bankruptcy come to mind).
My background is in finance and Real Estate is one of the fields I'm very interested in. Because my interests are varied, I figure a 3-4yr timeline to hone in on the one I want to pursue the most is not a bad thing. I'll earn a degree in the meantime, meet lots of new people, and I enjoy school so I'd enjoy learning the law even if I dont practice it.
-The archetypical lawyer actuall makes a pretty terrible entrepreneur. Lawyers are very risk-averse and analytical. Entrepreneurs need to be comfortable with risk and creative/constructive.
I hear you on that.... I think the benefit of having both components of education/background (mba and jd) is that I'll be be better at my job because I learned to think like a lawyer. To be more analytical and detail-focused and to critically look at various points of view -- skills that will pay "dividends" in the business world.

If you think I'm off base with any of my comments, I'd love to know.


I have a JD and MBA and all I can say is you are clueless if you think it will really help you. Employers will be less likely to hire you because a lot of law firms will think you are over qualified or not committed to the legal profession and businesses will think that you are over qualified and will cost too much so they will not want to hire you either. You will end up having a much more difficult time getting a job with both degrees than with only one.

As for your thinking that real estate businesses will want you, well they might IF you had several years doing real estate law but you already said you don't plan on practicing. So you will mean nothing more to a real estate business than an MBA with no law degree except they will believe that you are going to cost them more...so they will hire the other guy over you.

And don't think your legal training will mean much of anything in business because you think you will be more analytical and detail-focused... Sorry but you wont be any more detail-focused or analytical than any plain Jane MBA, you will tend to bring in legal issue where no one cares to have them brought in and that will not be something that employers want either.

Do yourself a favor and just get the MBA.

missbusiness
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:09 am

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby missbusiness » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:43 am

Pip wrote:
missbusiness wrote:Thanks . Those are all great points and definitely things I've considered over the past few months!

-A JD/MBA is very expensive. Even if you have the cash to pay for it, I can think of better things to spend the money on.
I would like to get scholarships! NYU offers a full scholarship program for non-traditional law students like myself. Obviously free is best. There are also a few diversity scholarships that I can apply for that would allay the costs of the 3-4years of school...
-A JD/MBA takes a very long time. Even if you're not anxious to get out and start earning cash, it may be frustrating to have two extra years of school left even though you know what you want to do and only really need two years of school to do it.
Agreed. At first the idea of 4 years of school (starting at ate 28) scared me. In school until I'm 32! Yikes!!! But if I see the light at the end of the tunnel, I think I can push through :)
-The benefit of a JD/MBA (both personally and in the eyes of employers) is virtually nil outside of transactional law, strategy consulting, and perhaps certain types of finance (real estate and bankruptcy come to mind).
My background is in finance and Real Estate is one of the fields I'm very interested in. Because my interests are varied, I figure a 3-4yr timeline to hone in on the one I want to pursue the most is not a bad thing. I'll earn a degree in the meantime, meet lots of new people, and I enjoy school so I'd enjoy learning the law even if I dont practice it.
-The archetypical lawyer actuall makes a pretty terrible entrepreneur. Lawyers are very risk-averse and analytical. Entrepreneurs need to be comfortable with risk and creative/constructive.
I hear you on that.... I think the benefit of having both components of education/background (mba and jd) is that I'll be be better at my job because I learned to think like a lawyer. To be more analytical and detail-focused and to critically look at various points of view -- skills that will pay "dividends" in the business world.

If you think I'm off base with any of my comments, I'd love to know.


I have a JD and MBA and all I can say is you are clueless if you think it will really help you. Employers will be less likely to hire you because a lot of law firms will think you are over qualified or not committed to the legal profession and businesses will think that you are over qualified and will cost too much so they will not want to hire you either. You will end up having a much more difficult time getting a job with both degrees than with only one.

As for your thinking that real estate businesses will want you, well they might IF you had several years doing real estate law but you already said you don't plan on practicing. So you will mean nothing more to a real estate business than an MBA with no law degree except they will believe that you are going to cost them more...so they will hire the other guy over you.

And don't think your legal training will mean much of anything in business because you think you will be more analytical and detail-focused... Sorry but you wont be any more detail-focused or analytical than any plain Jane MBA, you will tend to bring in legal issue where no one cares to have them brought in and that will not be something that employers want either.

Do yourself a favor and just get the MBA.


seriously? "you will cost more so they will hire the other guy over you". that's your argument? i find it hard to make any sense of your commentary.

mst
Posts: 925
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:01 am

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby mst » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:53 am

Don't take it too personally missbusiness. It's just that your first post said "Money is not an issue for me" and then the second post says "I would like to get scholarships." I'm sure you could see how one might infer from those posts that you haven't thought this through completely, even if you had. Regardless, both of the schools are extremely difficult to get into... if you have this choice to make in the future, congratulations...

Pip
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:30 pm

Re: columbia vs nyu for JD/MBA

Postby Pip » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:35 pm

missbusiness wrote:
Pip wrote:
missbusiness wrote:Thanks . Those are all great points and definitely things I've considered over the past few months!

-A JD/MBA is very expensive. Even if you have the cash to pay for it, I can think of better things to spend the money on.
I would like to get scholarships! NYU offers a full scholarship program for non-traditional law students like myself. Obviously free is best. There are also a few diversity scholarships that I can apply for that would allay the costs of the 3-4years of school...
-A JD/MBA takes a very long time. Even if you're not anxious to get out and start earning cash, it may be frustrating to have two extra years of school left even though you know what you want to do and only really need two years of school to do it.
Agreed. At first the idea of 4 years of school (starting at ate 28) scared me. In school until I'm 32! Yikes!!! But if I see the light at the end of the tunnel, I think I can push through :)
-The benefit of a JD/MBA (both personally and in the eyes of employers) is virtually nil outside of transactional law, strategy consulting, and perhaps certain types of finance (real estate and bankruptcy come to mind).
My background is in finance and Real Estate is one of the fields I'm very interested in. Because my interests are varied, I figure a 3-4yr timeline to hone in on the one I want to pursue the most is not a bad thing. I'll earn a degree in the meantime, meet lots of new people, and I enjoy school so I'd enjoy learning the law even if I dont practice it.
-The archetypical lawyer actuall makes a pretty terrible entrepreneur. Lawyers are very risk-averse and analytical. Entrepreneurs need to be comfortable with risk and creative/constructive.
I hear you on that.... I think the benefit of having both components of education/background (mba and jd) is that I'll be be better at my job because I learned to think like a lawyer. To be more analytical and detail-focused and to critically look at various points of view -- skills that will pay "dividends" in the business world.

If you think I'm off base with any of my comments, I'd love to know.


I have a JD and MBA and all I can say is you are clueless if you think it will really help you. Employers will be less likely to hire you because a lot of law firms will think you are over qualified or not committed to the legal profession and businesses will think that you are over qualified and will cost too much so they will not want to hire you either. You will end up having a much more difficult time getting a job with both degrees than with only one.

As for your thinking that real estate businesses will want you, well they might IF you had several years doing real estate law but you already said you don't plan on practicing. So you will mean nothing more to a real estate business than an MBA with no law degree except they will believe that you are going to cost them more...so they will hire the other guy over you.

And don't think your legal training will mean much of anything in business because you think you will be more analytical and detail-focused... Sorry but you wont be any more detail-focused or analytical than any plain Jane MBA, you will tend to bring in legal issue where no one cares to have them brought in and that will not be something that employers want either.

Do yourself a favor and just get the MBA.


seriously? "you will cost more so they will hire the other guy over you". that's your argument? i find it hard to make any sense of your commentary.


Let me put in simple terms for you then.

A business operates to maximize profits... that means lowest costs possible and highest revenue possible. YOU as an employee would be a cost. So a business can hire a JD/MBA or an MBA... both are qualified... but the expectation is that a JD/MBA is going to cost more than an MBA. A business would rather hire the cheapest worker that can do the job and that will not be the JD/MBA if an MBA will do.

As for the rest you didn't seem to understand, a business that wants to hire someone with a legal background will want someone that has actually practiced law not just gotten a JD... you say you will never practice then your JD is pointless and means nothing to the business that wants someone with a legal background. I can find paralegals that would know more than a JD right out of law school and they would again be cheaper.

Don't assume that a JD or MBA or JD/MBA will entitle you to anything, you still have to show enough value to justify your cost and you describe someone who would have a JD but no legal experience that would be pointless to a business.




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