Is it less stressful at the T14? Firsthand knowledge wanted Forum

[Redhornet110]

Do students at the T14 find themselves under less academic stress than those at schools ranked a little lower (15-35) because they know they don't have to do as well to still have good job prospects?

It seems that many students at places like GW, BU, Fordman are all thinking the same thing: "I can slip in the back door of biglaw while taking the $$$ at the 'easier' school and by placing in the top 25-35 percent." But when you have two thirds or three quarters of the class thinking that, I would think that academic competition becomes extremely intense.

At the T14 (say middle T14 like Penn, Virginia, Berkeley) I'd imagine the competition between students isn't as intense because they know they only need to be in the top half or so to land the big jobs. Can anyone with firsthand experience tell me if this seems to be the case?

Or, are the students at the T14 of a discernibly higher caliber such that the decreased competition is made up for by having smarter students to compete with?

Thanks for the input.

[heyyitskatie]

This response probably isn't worth a whole lot since I'm just one week into 1L year, but here's what I can offer:

I think there is definitely some merit to the thought that being able to place a bit lower in your class and have a chance at a good job lowers competitiveness, but it's a more nuanced than that...

1) Since some T14s don't have traditional grades, we don't have to stress about the difference between an A- and a B+, for example. Also, the bottom 20% in our class is essentially subsidized by the top 40% - 60% chunk...everyone in that group gets a P (in any given subject). For better or worse, I really like knowing that I'm not going to get a C- or any other grade that definitively outs me as being among the worst in the class.

2) Diversified career goals. It seems like some competition is reduced because not everyone has career goals that necessarily require straight HHs (or straight As). The reason I include this in a discussion about the T14 is that our LRAP programs tend to be more comprehensive, so we can seriously entertain lower paying jobs without as high a risk as lower ranked schools.

Edit: clarification

[Pip]

I suspect that only the very top schools can be stress free... I remember the Dean's speech at Yale when he told people to relax, that the hard part was getting in and that now you should take time to take classes in things that interest you outside of law while you were there. For anyone that listened to him you could have a very stress free time and still get a good job... that said I know of only a handful in my class that actually did relax and kick back. The vast majority had developed such a habit of over achieving and making their lives stressful that they continued as they always had, stressed out to the nth degree. And that was in a school where your first term grades were all pass/fail.... I don't think grades or lack of grades will make much difference when you get a bunch of hyper competitive people together they will still try to crawl over each other to the top even if the top is only measured by themselves in their own minds.

[Veyron]

Do you play harder basketball in the pre-season against the Timberwolves or in the finals against Lebron and the Heat? You think law school is any different?

[Rand M.]

Do you play harder basketball in the pre-season against the Timberwolves or in the finals against Lebron and the Heat Kobe and the Lakers? You think law school is any different?

I thought that if the discussion were going to be allowed to continue, we should at least use a metaphor with concrete elements. We don't even know what that other scenario looks like, and we may never find out. Continue from here.

[Veyron]

Do you play harder basketball in the pre-season against the Timberwolves or in the finals against Lebron and the Heat Kobe and the Lakers? You think law school is any different?

I thought that if the discussion were going to be allowed to continue, we should at least use a metaphor with concrete elements. We don't even know what that other scenario looks like, and we may never find out. Continue from here.

Why don't you fucking tell me how my ass tastes?

[ToTransferOrNot]

So, I transfered from a T40 (Wisconsin) to a T6 (Chicago), and I am now a Rising 3L.

No, things are not less stressful - but they aren't more stressful, either. People in law school want to do well, regardless of the law school you go to. There is employment anxiety at every law school short of HYS - or there was last year, anyway, due to the economy.

Further, the classes are basically identical between schools, and the people at Wisconsin were just as smart as the people at Chicago are.

[TommyK]

Do you play harder basketball in the pre-season against the Timberwolves or in the finals against Lebron and the Heat? You think law school is any different?

Do we think that law school is any different than pro basketball? yes.

Christ, and I thought I had bad metaphors...

[Veyron]

Do you play harder basketball in the pre-season against the Timberwolves or in the finals against Lebron and the Heat? You think law school is any different?

Do we think that law school is any different than pro basketball? yes.

Christ, and I thought I had bad metaphors...

NBA

1): Each year tons of strapping tall kids with lots of talent dream about playing in the pros one day.

2: A few are good enough to get recruited by top college programs.

3: Some of those kids are invited to start.

4: Some of those starters will be drafted in to the NBA where players are paid high salaries for grueling work (seriously, its not all fun and games, the schedules those guys play are brutal) and social cachet.

LAW

1): Each year tons of short Jewish kids with lots of intelligence dream of becoming lawyers.

2): A few are good enough to get admitted to top law schools

3): Some of those kids will have good enough grades for biglaw

4): Some of those students will be hired by large firms where they will be paid high salaries in exchange for grueling work and prestige. Unlike the NBA players, however, they won’t get laid.

[MC Southstar]

Do you play harder basketball in the pre-season against the Timberwolves or in the finals against Lebron and the Heat? You think law school is any different?

Do we think that law school is any different than pro basketball? yes.

Christ, and I thought I had bad metaphors...

NBA

1): Each year tons of strapping tall kids with lots of talent dream about playing in the pros one day.

2: A few are good enough to get recruited by top college programs.

3: Some of those kids are invited to start.

4: Some of those starters will be drafted in to the NBA where players are paid high salaries for grueling work (seriously, its not all fun and games, the schedules those guys play are brutal) and social cachet.

LAW

1): Each year tons of short Jewish kids with lots of intelligence dream of becoming lawyers.

2): A few are good enough to get admitted to top law schools

3): Some of those kids will have good enough grades for biglaw

4): Some of those students will be hired by large firms where they will be paid high salaries in exchange for grueling work and prestige. Unlike the NBA players, however, they won’t get laid.

You're going to Penn State.

[Veyron]

Do you play harder basketball in the pre-season against the Timberwolves or in the finals against Lebron and the Heat? You think law school is any different?

Do we think that law school is any different than pro basketball? yes.

Christ, and I thought I had bad metaphors...

NBA

1): Each year tons of strapping tall kids with lots of talent dream about playing in the pros one day.

2: A few are good enough to get recruited by top college programs.

3: Some of those kids are invited to start.

4: Some of those starters will be drafted in to the NBA where players are paid high salaries for grueling work (seriously, its not all fun and games, the schedules those guys play are brutal) and social cachet.

LAW

1): Each year tons of short Jewish kids with lots of intelligence dream of becoming lawyers.

2): A few are good enough to get admitted to top law schools

3): Some of those kids will have good enough grades for biglaw

4): Some of those students will be hired by large firms where they will be paid high salaries in exchange for grueling work and prestige. Unlike the NBA players, however, they won’t get laid.

You're going to Penn State.

a) What would this have to do with anything?
b) Fuck no I'm not going to Penn state, tiz' a joke noob.

[MC Southstar]

a) What would this have to do with anything?
b) Fuck no I'm not going to Penn state, tiz' a joke noob.

a) You're going to Penn State
b) I'm going to Penn State

[Veyron]

a) What would this have to do with anything?
b) Fuck no I'm not going to Penn state, tiz' a joke noob.

a) You're going to Penn State
b) I'm going to Penn State

You clearly are going to Penn State.

[MC Southstar]

a) What would this have to do with anything?
b) Fuck no I'm not going to Penn state, tiz' a joke noob.

a) You're going to Penn State
b) I'm going to Penn State

You clearly are going to Penn State.

Way to insult yourself too, bro.

[Veyron]

a) What would this have to do with anything?
b) Fuck no I'm not going to Penn state, tiz' a joke noob.

a) You're going to Penn State
b) I'm going to Penn State

You clearly are going to Penn State.

Way to insult yourself too, bro.

Funny that you should take it as an insult.

-----------------

OK, thats it, I need to change avatars, this is all getting too Shakespearean for me.

[Sauer Grapes]

Things were still plenty stressful in this economy at my T14. I can't speak for my classmates, but I am confident in saying that I was less stressed being at a T14, though. I knew I needed to perform, but I didn't feel the stress to be very top of the class, and so I was able to have a life. Had I been at a lower T1, or a T2 school, I don't know if I would have done anything other than study every day.

[MC Southstar]

Funny that you should take it as an insult.

-----------------

OK, thats it, I need to change avatars, this is all getting too Shakespearean for me.

Diggin' the new avatar.

[paratactical]

.

[Veyron]

a) What would this have to do with anything?
b) Fuck no I'm not going to Penn state, tiz' a joke noob.

The noob comment is pretty lulzy considering the join dates.

Its lulzy for so many more reasons that it isn't even funny.

[/quote]

Diggin' the new avatar. [/quote]

There are only so many JoePA jokes a man can make.

[paratactical]

.

[Redhornet110]

Thanks to those of you who gave on topic and helpful responses.

[vanwinkle]

Why don't you fucking tell me how my ass tastes?

Sigh. This is how I have to spend my OCI break, responding to people like this? Oh well, tempban it is.

[chris0805]

It's tough to compare because most of us only go to one law school, but I found it pretty cooperative and low stress at a T14 that was supposedly known for being a "cutthroat" environment. The feeling that 80-95 %+ would all be fine definitely helped.

Also, I would like to add that the Basketball metaphor made NO sense. Seriously, I wasn't even sure which kind of school is supposed to a "pre-season" game or what that would mean or which school would be playing against the Timberwolves. A better metaphor would be whether or not it was more competitive amongst teammates at a school that consistently placed guys in the NBA vs. one that almost never did. That would still be a pretty bad analogy though.

[juevonate]

Wait....with the NBA metaphor...isn't going to a T-14 playing in the preseason, since the result doesn't really matter?

Sorry man, but that analogy causes excessive pain to my brain.

It'd be comparable to a pre-draft camp, where players are just trying to get a succesful job.....the best players don't even need to play, since they've already demonstrated their aptitude....