Surrounded by elitists...

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Matthies
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Matthies » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:59 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Why are law students elitist?

Because the legal profession, including hiring, is elitist.

With job saturation at an all-time high, pedigree matters, especially since it really is true that you can get almost the same education at a lower-tier school as you do at a higher-tier one. They're all the same classes, taught by Harvard and Yale grads who learned the same things. The difference isn't the caliber of the teaching, really, it's the caliber of the students and the caliber of the degree name.

This is why transfers often do so well at their new school; they're doing the exact same thing they did at their old school, and they already learned how to do it well. So why transfer? The name, the alumni network, and the fact that having a better name on their resume indicates they were in a better pool of students.

Law is all about prestige, which tends to mean elitists succeed.


Maybe in NYC or other large legal markets and at elite firms. But this has not been my personal experience at ALL. Instead its always been who you know beats where you go. But of course if you don't know anyone then where you go is all you got. But at least here in Denver I'd rather know people and be from the local school than try to break in here even from an elite school. markets like Denver have a very real basis towards local candidates (to the point hat expect to get grilled on it even if your local but came from out of state for LS).

I've just never seen the "law is all about prestige" thing here. Maybe its because the people attracketed to prestige don't tend to come to places like Denver to practice law and hence that "prestige" model is not something in the firm culture/hiring model.
I dunno, but my personal experience says law is not all about prestige, very much so for some firms and in a few cities, but I hazard to guess most lawyers experiences in the many markets outside of those are similar to mine. For those that seek and those that want prestige they probably tend to flock to the markets and schools that make that a premium.

d34d9823
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:03 pm

CapHillLove wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:I dunno, I uprooted too and I haven't found it to be all fun and games.

Also, huge LOL at the anti-elitism screed this thread opens with in the light of the fact that CCN slightly-below-median kids are currently fearing prospect of missing out on biglaw and not being able to repay their loans. You may be above prestige whoring, but your potential employers sure won't be. Hopefully anti-elitists will find comfort in their own self-righteousness when they find themselves unable to manage their debts because no one wanted to hire from their school.

Don't worry, they will. People who have failed at life are always full of themselves in my experience.


Someone who is slightly below median at CCN or chose a school below T6 for cost/geographical reasons has failed at life? Jesus Christ.

Reading comprehension is good. You should try it.

09042014
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby 09042014 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:04 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
CapHillLove wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:I dunno, I uprooted too and I haven't found it to be all fun and games.

Also, huge LOL at the anti-elitism screed this thread opens with in the light of the fact that CCN slightly-below-median kids are currently fearing prospect of missing out on biglaw and not being able to repay their loans. You may be above prestige whoring, but your potential employers sure won't be. Hopefully anti-elitists will find comfort in their own self-righteousness when they find themselves unable to manage their debts because no one wanted to hire from their school.

Don't worry, they will. People who have failed at life are always full of themselves in my experience.


Someone who is slightly below median at CCN or chose a school below T6 for cost/geographical reasons has failed at life? Jesus Christ.

Reading comprehension is good. You should try it.


TBF if he could he wouldn't be forced to a TTT like I am.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby johnnyutah » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:05 pm

Matthies wrote:Maybe in NYC or other large legal markets and at elite firms. But this has not been my personal experience at ALL. Instead its always been who you know beats where you go.

TCR. The key, though, is that people who go to elite schools are usually also the kinds of people who are from the right social background to be in at least peripheral contact with people who can help them out. I think this more than anything else is responsible for many t-14s' high job placement rates.

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dresden doll
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:06 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
CapHillLove wrote:Someone who is slightly below median at CCN or chose a school below T6 for cost/geographical reasons has failed at life? Jesus Christ.

Reading comprehension is good. You should try it.


I fear he's much too in love with his straw man to try RC.

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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:07 pm

johnnyutah wrote:TCR. The key, though, is that people who go to elite schools are usually also the kinds of people who are from the right social background to be in at least peripheral contact with people who can help them out. I think this more than anything else is responsible for many t-14s' high job placement rates.

I dunno, high LSATs rule admissions and those are scattered pretty all over I think. I would say it's more that you go to T14s to meet the people that will help you out.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:08 pm

Matthies wrote:Instead its always been who you know beats where you go. But of course if you don't know anyone then where you go is all you got.

This is the thing. A lot of people go to law school without knowing anyone, thinking the degree will get them in the door. Well, the name on the degree matters a lot.

I'm also not going to dispute the regionality of schools and secondary markets, but wouldn't you agree that if you want to work in a particular market and you don't know anyone there, it'd be better to go to the local T2 than the local T4?

I also don't think many people go to the T14 expecting to get into a new secondary market regardless, they tend to either 1) want to go back where they came from or 2) go to one of the major markets where ties don't matter so much but degree does.

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CapHillLove
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby CapHillLove » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:08 pm

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Last edited by CapHillLove on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:10 pm

CapHillLove wrote:You're assuming that someone who chose a school did so because they're "anti-elitest"... like there can't be any other reason.

You are also assuming that by doing so, they will fail at life. That would mean that people who pick it for other reasons would also fail at life. I don't think going to Berkeley or Michigan qualifies as "failing at life."

Also, I'm a she.

QF encapsulation of why a prestige-based approach is a good thing.

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Matthies
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Matthies » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:14 pm

johnnyutah wrote:
Matthies wrote:Maybe in NYC or other large legal markets and at elite firms. But this has not been my personal experience at ALL. Instead its always been who you know beats where you go.

TCR. The key, though, is that people who go to elite schools are usually also the kinds of people who are from the right social background to be in at least peripheral contact with people who can help them out. I think this more than anything else is responsible for many t-14s' high job placement rates.


Nah, I didn't know anyone when I moved here, I met all my coancts in law school and now know more lawyers/judges then people who arn't. Thing is, you don't have to do that when frims are coming to your school to recuit you becuase of the name of your dgree. But again, that's not the experince for most law stduents, alwyers or firms. Only a small percentage of the law is so elite driven, but that 9the biggest firms) is what most people seem to think about or target as OLs and in law school. Fine and danady if you can get it, but I think a big mistake if you end up below median and your only job search stragtegy was the name on your degree. There was a time when even bottom 3rd at T14 could get jobs from OCI. Those days are gone, and those kids need to wake up and start meeting the right people now so that when they graduate they will have the conacts.

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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:19 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
CapHillLove wrote:You're assuming that someone who chose a school did so because they're "anti-elitest"... like there can't be any other reason.

You are also assuming that by doing so, they will fail at life. That would mean that people who pick it for other reasons would also fail at life. I don't think going to Berkeley or Michigan qualifies as "failing at life."

Also, I'm a she.

QF encapsulation of why a prestige-based approach is a good thing.


:lol:

Let's try and help out, though.

Of course some people pick schools they pick for reasons having nothing to do with self-righteous elitism. We were just taking a swipe at those that choose to attend TTTs, then justify their choices with the prattle along the lines of 'I am too enlightened to indulge in elitist sentiments.'

Also, no one ever referred to nonT6 schools as crappy choices. I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness of the conviction that 'you can do oh so well from anywhere' in the face of indisputable fact that even those as high as up as CCN - I leave out HYS because I do believe they're still safe - currently fear unemployment.

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dresden doll
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:20 pm

johnnyutah wrote:
Matthies wrote:Maybe in NYC or other large legal markets and at elite firms. But this has not been my personal experience at ALL. Instead its always been who you know beats where you go.

TCR. The key, though, is that people who go to elite schools are usually also the kinds of people who are from the right social background to be in at least peripheral contact with people who can help them out. I think this more than anything else is responsible for many t-14s' high job placement rates.


No. The people that go to T14s are usually people who did well on the LSAT and UG. Far as I know, LSAT/GPA does not correlate with contacts or networking.

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Matthies
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Matthies » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:20 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Matthies wrote:Instead its always been who you know beats where you go. But of course if you don't know anyone then where you go is all you got.

This is the thing. A lot of people go to law school without knowing anyone, thinking the degree will get them in the door. Well, the name on the degree matters a lot.

I'm also not going to dispute the regionality of schools and secondary markets, but wouldn't you agree that if you want to work in a particular market and you don't know anyone there, it'd be better to go to the local T2 than the local T4?



I don't know, I guess if for me (knowing what I have done and would do) rank in the same city would not have been a factor for me, becuase well rank has never been a factor in any of the jobs I got. I mean I went to Denver (T2) and have never lost out a job to a CU grads (40s?). Tyhe reason being is plain and simple, I've gotten all my jobs through my conacts, so i never had to play the "whose resume" is ranked higher game. Hence my advice is get to know pwople in school so that you don't have to let the name or your school carry or sink you. Batles of the faceless resmue is just a bad place to be in becuase unless you go to Yale there is allways a resume out there that can trump you on school name alone.

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CapHillLove
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby CapHillLove » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:23 pm

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Last edited by CapHillLove on Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:25 pm

CapHillLove wrote:I don't think that this board tends to be all that representative because most people are interested in those few jobs that require a T14 name, so elitism is rampant.


What jobs specifically are there ITE that don't require a good school name and pay well enough to support loan payments?

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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:26 pm

So I guess no one else saw this as a roundabout way to bitch about an ex?

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johnnyutah
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby johnnyutah » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:29 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:I dunno, high LSATs rule admissions and those are scattered pretty all over I think.

Nope. The overwhelming majority of truly stellar LSATs come from the super well known undergrad universities on the coasts.

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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:30 pm

Matthies wrote:I don't know, I guess if for me (knowing what I have done and would do) rank in the same city would not have been a factor for me, becuase well rank has never been a factor in any of the jobs I got. I mean I went to Denver (T2) and have never lost out a job to a CU grads (40s?). Tyhe reason being is plain and simple, I've gotten all my jobs through my conacts, so i never had to play the "whose resume" is ranked higher game. Hence my advice is get to know pwople in school so that you don't have to let the name or your school carry or sink you. Batles of the faceless resmue is just a bad place to be in becuase unless you go to Yale there is allways a resume out there that can trump you on school name alone.


Didn't you graduate a while back, though? I think legal profession has changed quite a bit since, although I certainly do believe that local candidates are frequently given preference in secondary markets.

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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:31 pm

johnnyutah wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:I dunno, high LSATs rule admissions and those are scattered pretty all over I think.

Nope. The overwhelming majority of truly stellar LSATs come from the super well known undergrad universities on the coasts.



I would try to play LSAT with you and see if you can figure out why this might be? But something tells me you will be skipping this question.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby johnnyutah » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:32 pm

dresden doll wrote:No. The people that go to T14s are usually people who did well on the LSAT and UG. Far as I know, LSAT/GPA does not correlate with contacts or networking.

But they sure do correlate with being rich, which correlates in turn to contacts.

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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby johnnyutah » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:35 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:I dunno, high LSATs rule admissions and those are scattered pretty all over I think.

Nope. The overwhelming majority of truly stellar LSATs come from the super well known undergrad universities on the coasts.

I would try to play LSAT with you and see if you can figure out why this might be? But something tells me you will be skipping this question.

This this supposed to be an insinuation of something substantive?

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:35 pm

What everyone else has said about med schools is true, but additionally, what you said in the original post about the med school world not having elitism and so on isn't really right. There are those in MD programs who would look down upon those in DO programs, and there are some DO students in turn who would look down upon offshore schools. It's much less of a problem for them than for us, but medicine isn't a magical world where everyone gets equal prestige, respect, and job prospects.

Secondly, if your former girlfriend got into UCLA, I highly doubt that she is a dipshit in any meaningful sense.

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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:36 pm

johnnyutah wrote:The key, though, is that people who go to elite schools are usually also the kinds of people who are from the right social background to be in at least peripheral contact with people who can help them out. I think this more than anything else is responsible for many t-14s' high job placement rates.


How does this make sense when the T10 places half or more of its grads through OCI?

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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby dakatz » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:37 pm

bk1 wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:The key, though, is that people who go to elite schools are usually also the kinds of people who are from the right social background to be in at least peripheral contact with people who can help them out. I think this more than anything else is responsible for many t-14s' high job placement rates.


How does this make sense when the T10 places half or more of its grads through OCI?


Just because many get placed through OCI does not mean that they wouldn't have found positions via contacts if OCI hadn't worked out as planned.

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Matthies
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Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Matthies » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:38 pm

dresden doll wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
Matthies wrote:Maybe in NYC or other large legal markets and at elite firms. But this has not been my personal experience at ALL. Instead its always been who you know beats where you go.

TCR. The key, though, is that people who go to elite schools are usually also the kinds of people who are from the right social background to be in at least peripheral contact with people who can help them out. I think this more than anything else is responsible for many t-14s' high job placement rates.


No. The people that go to T14s are usually people who did well on the LSAT and UG. Far as I know, LSAT/GPA does not correlate with contacts or networking.


I think this is correct, and also worth discussing further. TLS is a self selecting crowd that I don't think necessarily correlates to the vast majority of law school applicants. The folks on TLS tend to be more focused with getting into the highest ranked school than many of the people I met in law school.

I was surprised by how many of my classmates who had numbers that would have made them locks at some T14 only applied to the two schools in Colorado because they wanted to stay in Colorado for law school and afterwards. I'm sure there are many who left Colorado for the top schools too, but what I am saying its not every prospective law student's top priority is to go to the highest ranked school they get into. (And likely the higher ranked the school is the more students in that school for whom that was their top priority).

The above is based on my experiences with my FT classmates, but is even more extreme in the PT program. I was one of only about 3-4 people who moved here to go to school part-time the vast majority, many with very high numbers and impressive careers and resumes applied ONLy to Denver and some waited years to get in because it was the only PT program.

So I think some of the "elitist" we see on this board is self selection. Those that have no desire to move likely won't apply to schools far away even if they could get in and those whose desire to go to the highest ranked school as top priority will likely apply to those schools no matter how far away they are. Those whose desire is to stay local likely don't seek out resources like TLS and when they do any thread they post about their plans to go local turns into a "you should go to a higher ranked school" thread. Because I think, the majority of TLSers see that as their personal top priority and assume others should too.




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