Surrounded by elitists...

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
fragged
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:52 pm

Surrounded by elitists...

Postby fragged » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:14 am

If I had a blog, this would just be another entry:

Today I browsed the TLS forums again, hoping to uncover yet another hidden gem that would help me polish my applications so they would sparkle and smell like Chanel Numba Fiiiiiive...

Then I started to think about my brother, an internist who graduated med school about 10 years ago. No one ever refused to interview him because he went to a school that was not in the top 10, 15, or 20. Come to think of it, med school applicants would never refer to lower-ranked schools as toilets, or expend a significant amount of effort trying to convince someone that they would be better off choosing another career because they could not get in to a top school.

So I began to wonder... Why are lawyers so concerned about pedigree?

Why do so many who attend or qualify to attend top law schools concern themselves so much with cutting down others who either cannot attend or choose not to attend a top school?

I remember when my ex-girlfriend (who went to UCLA) came down to visit me in Orange County and needed to reference a book for work. The closest law library was at Whittier Law School. Instead of grabbing the book she needed and getting on with it, she felt the need to tell me how none of these people were ever going to get a job, and that this school was pathetic. At the time I just thought her behavior was odd. Now, I have to wonder if she had just fallen victim to the same contempt so many on these forums have for those who attend any school below ____ <-- insert ranking here.

The funniest thing was that she was a dipshit. A dipshit who got into law school because she got the grades, but she had nothing else. She worked for a small firm run by a guy who graduated from Southwestern, a school she despised, who made roughly 5 times what she made.

I suppose if I ended my blog with a question, it would ask you to opine - why is there such a pervasive elitist attitude among the legal community?

Added 8/17:

I sat down for lunch today with a guy who just made partner at a small, but successful firm in Los Angeles. I asked him what his thoughts are on rankings. He told me that if he had to hire someone in a hurry, he would look to UCLA and USC first, because statistically they will produce a better associate. But he has hired associates from those two schools and been disappointed to find out that while they may be sharp, several of them lack things that he considers equally important, such as social skills. He said "I don't care how many hours you can bill - if you can't schmooze the client when you need to, you're worthless."
Last edited by fragged on Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Adjudicator
Posts: 1108
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:18 am

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Adjudicator » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:18 am

Well, you don't exactly come off as the warmest person, yourself.

GrapeApe
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:12 am

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby GrapeApe » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:42 am

I suppose if I ended my blog with a question, it would ask you to opine - why is there such a pervasive elitist attitude among the legal community?


Two reasons. First, the way in which law is taught breeds this type of behavior in law students. The schools tend to foster a hyper competitive, cut-throat, win at any costs, atmosphere all while pumping the law students full of obnoxious drivel and the idea that they are somehow "better" than those filthy little guys because they can "think like a lawyer." Then you have the study of law itself. The fact is the study of law isn't rocket science. A trained ape could figure it out. Faced with this reality, many in the legal "profession" find themselves suddenly confronted by the fact that they really aren't that important. Thus, those in power in the legal purposefully obfuscate to make themselves feel more intelligent than those filthy little guys out in the world. The real secret, the one that the legal "profession" doesn't want to get out, is that there really isn't an art or science to law at all. In it's purest form, law is about power. It's about who is in power to hear a case or to write a law at any given point in time.

Law students will often come up with intricate and convoluted reasons as to why two different cases, with seemingly similar facts will have completely divergent results. The real answer is that one judge wanted one specific outcome, while the other wanted a different result. There was no rhyme or reason to it. It was simply about the results. Thus, stripped of all of the rhetoric, all of the talk about a "legal profession", you are left with nothing more than one group of people (who often tend to be a vocal minority) imposing their ideology on others through the use of raw force.

(This also explains why people will actually defend the "reasoning" of a mentally deranged degenerate like Vaughn Walker.)

Individuals who are obsessed with power, tend to be the same type who will look down at the "pathetic little people" who they want to control.

Total Litigator
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:17 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Total Litigator » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:33 am

Also, the AMA does a pretty good job of regulating the creation of new medical schools, which means that there are simply higher and lower ranked schools, but every one is pretty qualified. The ABA on the other hand, seems to let anyone with a business plan establish a law school.
Additionally, it is basically impossible to get into med school with a MCAT and GPA that aren't above the 55th/60th percentiles. I think that leads to more of the impression that everyone who gets into medical school is qualified. That being said, of course there is some elitism in the medical field. If this wasn't true, people wouldn't be lining up to get into Harvard/Wash U/etc.

I'm not arguing for elitism, I'm just saying that the law school system sets itself up a bit more for it.

Also, I really do think that your exaggerating the lack of elitism in the medical field. I went to a school with a very good medical school and a not so good law school, and all the med students I met came off as pretentious d**ks. When most would find out that I attended the law school, they would go "Oh" and politely excuse themselves.

User avatar
ResolutePear
Posts: 8614
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:07 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:58 am

fragged wrote:If I had a blog, this would just be another entry:

Today I browsed the TLS forums again, hoping to uncover yet another hidden gem that would help me polish my applications so they would sparkle and smell like Chanel Numba Fiiiiiive...

Then I started to think about my brother, an internist who graduated med school about 10 years ago. No one ever refused to interview him because he went to a school that was not in the top 10, 15, or 20. Come to think of it, med school applicants would never refer to lower-ranked schools as toilets, or expend a significant amount of effort trying to convince someone that they would be better off choosing another career because they could not get in to a top school.

So I began to wonder... Why are lawyers so concerned about pedigree?

Why do so many who attend or qualify to attend top law schools concern themselves so much with cutting down others who either cannot attend or choose not to attend a top school?

I remember when my ex-girlfriend (who went to UCLA) came down to visit me in Orange County and needed to reference a book for work. The closest law library was at Whittier Law School. Instead of grabbing the book she needed and getting on with it, she felt the need to tell me how none of these people were ever going to get a job, and that this school was pathetic. At the time I just thought her behavior was odd. Now, I have to wonder if she had just fallen victim to the same contempt so many on these forums have for those who attend any school below ____ <-- insert ranking here.

The funniest thing was that she was a dipshit. A dipshit who got into law school because she got the grades, but she had nothing else. She worked for a small firm run by a guy who graduated from Southwestern, a school she despised, who made roughly 5 times what she made.

I suppose if I ended my blog with a question, it would ask you to opine - why is there such a pervasive elitist attitude among the legal community?


I'll just leave this here, the truth:
--ImageRemoved--

User avatar
thickfreakness
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby thickfreakness » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 am

There are half as many med schools and their class sizes are generally half the size of a law school's. The TTTs of med school are really like T50s in law school parlance. There's not nearly as much market saturation, especially for entry-level positions, in the medical field. It's a bad analogy from the outset.

rockstar4488
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:39 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby rockstar4488 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:37 am

Med School is way more prestigious than law school.

User avatar
ogman05
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:02 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby ogman05 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:38 am

Flame... if not you will fully understand in four years or less. Try not to be too naive. You can achieve at any law school. There is just higher probabilities at different ones. The legal field itself (judges, partners, high-powered alumnus) often put an emphasis and believe higher ranked schools on average produce higher caliber students. This is why us news has peer rankings. Well good luck man.

User avatar
Rand M.
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:24 am

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Rand M. » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:48 am

thickfreakness wrote:There are half as many med schools and their class sizes are generally half the size of a law school's. The TTTs of med school are really like T50s in law school parlance. There's not nearly as much market saturation, especially for entry-level positions, in the medical field. It's a bad analogy from the outset.


This.

User avatar
Duralex
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:25 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Duralex » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:42 am

I dig the "Atlas Farted" tar.

Also, there's a very vertical difference between Whittier to UCLA with a number of schools in between in SoCal alone. I don't think the OP's GF would have been quite as dismissive of a SW grad's prospects (despite "despising" it.) I know of plenty of lawyers I would term "very successful" from UCLA, USC, LLS, SW and (not quite as many) from Pepp (probably due to my acquaintance.) UCLA and USC are obviously the most prestigious and SW the most workmanlike--but the SW grads I've known make just as much. Sometimes more. I can't say the same for Whittier. Their freaking accreditation was placed on probation by the ABA from 2005-2009 due to low bar passage.

User avatar
johnnyutah
Posts: 1709
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:00 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby johnnyutah » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:58 am

fragged wrote:If I had a blog, this would just be another entry:

Today I browsed the TLS forums again, hoping to uncover yet another hidden gem that would help me polish my applications so they would sparkle and smell like Chanel Numba Fiiiiiive...

Then I started to think about my brother, an internist who graduated med school about 10 years ago. No one ever refused to interview him because he went to a school that was not in the top 10, 15, or 20. Come to think of it, med school applicants would never refer to lower-ranked schools as toilets, or expend a significant amount of effort trying to convince someone that they would be better off choosing another career because they could not get in to a top school.

So I began to wonder... Why are lawyers so concerned about pedigree?

Why do so many who attend or qualify to attend top law schools concern themselves so much with cutting down others who either cannot attend or choose not to attend a top school?

I remember when my ex-girlfriend (who went to UCLA) came down to visit me in Orange County and needed to reference a book for work. The closest law library was at Whittier Law School. Instead of grabbing the book she needed and getting on with it, she felt the need to tell me how none of these people were ever going to get a job, and that this school was pathetic. At the time I just thought her behavior was odd. Now, I have to wonder if she had just fallen victim to the same contempt so many on these forums have for those who attend any school below ____ <-- insert ranking here.

The funniest thing was that she was a dipshit. A dipshit who got into law school because she got the grades, but she had nothing else. She worked for a small firm run by a guy who graduated from Southwestern, a school she despised, who made roughly 5 times what she made.

I suppose if I ended my blog with a question, it would ask you to opine - why is there such a pervasive elitist attitude among the legal community?

Because most of the people who go to law school - especially the high ranked law schools - are rich and coastal.

User avatar
Royal
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:52 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Royal » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:59 am

fragged wrote: Come to think of it, med school applicants would never refer to lower-ranked schools as toilets, or expend a significant amount of effort trying to convince someone that they would be better off choosing another career because they could not get in to a top school.

So I began to wonder... Why are lawyers so concerned about pedigree?



Supply and demand. When there are many more applicants than jobs, credentials are king. Simple concept, really.

Also, as others have said, there is a feeling that the profession is being watered down by the proliferation of law schools. Nearly anyone with a pulse can get in to *some* law school, potentially a for-profit diploma mill. There is naturally some animosity towards those schools and their students, since there is a perception that they're detrimental to the profession.
Last edited by Royal on Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

03121202698008
Posts: 3002
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:07 am

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby 03121202698008 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:10 am

Royal wrote:
fragged wrote: Come to think of it, med school applicants would never refer to lower-ranked schools as toilets, or expend a significant amount of effort trying to convince someone that they would be better off choosing another career because they could not get in to a top school.

So I began to wonder... Why are lawyers so concerned about pedigree?



Supply and demand. When there are many more applicants than jobs, credentials are king. Simple concept, really.


Exactly. Plus, medical schools have much more stringent requirements for admission. You have to take the MCAT and prove knowledge of basic A&P, etc.

User avatar
clintonius
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 am

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby clintonius » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:13 am

Royal wrote:
fragged wrote: Come to think of it, med school applicants would never refer to lower-ranked schools as toilets, or expend a significant amount of effort trying to convince someone that they would be better off choosing another career because they could not get in to a top school.

So I began to wonder... Why are lawyers so concerned about pedigree?

Supply and demand. When there are many more applicants than jobs, credentials are king. Simple concept, really.

Yeah, this.

Why don't people ever whine about the elitism of bankers?

User avatar
Duralex
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:25 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby Duralex » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:16 am

Again, to be clear: Whittier almost lost their accreditation. There's a reason their rep is in the shitter.

lawschoollll
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:57 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby lawschoollll » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:18 am

Because mediocre med students at TTT med schools are still going to find jobs. Whereas all mediocre law students at TTT law schools get upon graduation are formal invitations to the IFF.

HTH

User avatar
clintonius
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 am

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby clintonius » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:54 am

lawschoollll wrote:Because mediocre med students at TTT med schools are still going to find jobs. Whereas all mediocre law students at TTT law schools get upon graduation are formal invitations to the IFF.

HTH
You know that old riddle, what do you call the last person in his class at the lowest-ranked medical school in the country?

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby 09042014 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:56 am

Because most law schools take any idiot who can read and qualifies for federal loans.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby 09042014 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:57 am

clintonius wrote:
lawschoollll wrote:Because mediocre med students at TTT med schools are still going to find jobs. Whereas all mediocre law students at TTT law schools get upon graduation are formal invitations to the IFF.

HTH
You know that old riddle, what do you call the last person in his class at the lowest-ranked medical school in the country?


Guy who gets his residency in St. bumble fuck Hospital?

lawschoollll
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:57 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby lawschoollll » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:01 am

Desert Fox wrote:
clintonius wrote:
lawschoollll wrote:Because mediocre med students at TTT med schools are still going to find jobs. Whereas all mediocre law students at TTT law schools get upon graduation are formal invitations to the IFF.

HTH
You know that old riddle, what do you call the last person in his class at the lowest-ranked medical school in the country?


Guy who gets his residency in St. bumble fuck Hospital?

Yea, not familiar with this one. "Rich"?

User avatar
jackalope11
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby jackalope11 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:02 am

clintonius wrote:You know that old riddle, what do you call the last person in his class at the lowest-ranked medical school in the country?



Doctor? :D

(I don't know the old riddle... what's the actual answer?)

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby 09042014 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:05 am

lawschoollll wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
clintonius wrote:You know that old riddle, what do you call the last person in his class at the lowest-ranked medical school in the country?


Guy who gets his residency in St. bumble fuck Hospital?

Yea, not familiar with this one. "Rich"?


Some types of Doctors make less than big law associates. Some make multiple times more. Like law there is variance.

lawschoollll
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:57 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby lawschoollll » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:09 am

Desert Fox wrote:
lawschoollll wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
clintonius wrote:You know that old riddle, what do you call the last person in his class at the lowest-ranked medical school in the country?


Guy who gets his residency in St. bumble fuck Hospital?

Yea, not familiar with this one. "Rich"?


Some types of Doctors make less than big law associates. Some make multiple times more. Like law there is variance.

Oh really? I thought hospitals were lockstep.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby 09042014 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:10 am

lawschoollll wrote:Oh really? I thought hospitals were lockstep.


No. Rural hospitals and clinics actually pay more too.

lawschoollll
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:57 pm

Re: Surrounded by elitists...

Postby lawschoollll » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:14 am

Desert Fox wrote:
lawschoollll wrote:Oh really? I thought hospitals were lockstep.


No. Rural hospitals and clinics actually pay more too.

Was joking dude




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carlos_danger and 3 guests