Best Law School in the South

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emorystud2010
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby emorystud2010 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:34 pm

flyingpanda wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:
MJMD wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:The schools which have some name recognition and might get you to a different Southern state (but only if you also have ties to that state) are (1st level) Duke and Vanderbilt, (2nd level) Virginia and Washington and Lee, (3rd level) Emory, Tulane, Wake, UNC.


Why is everyone in here extolling Duke over Virginia? Is it just because it's private? Virginia has the higher USNWR ranking and kicks Duke's ass when it comes to both federal clerkships and BigLaw hiring. It's also the local state school in Virginia, making it dominant within that state in a way that Duke and Vanderbilt cannot necessarily claim in North Carolina or Tennesse. What am I missing here?


UVA might be a better school than Duke. It might place better in Biglaw and federal clerkships. But if I was looking for a job at a private firm in Alabama or Louisiana I'd rather be median at Duke than median at UVA. Duke just has much better name recognition in the South. If you're from Bama and trying to get a job at a firm in B'ham and you went to UVA, people would be like, maybe UVA's a good school but why didn't you go to U Bama? I just think its different if said person went to Duke. UVA is kind of special though because I think it is the ONLY state school that will get to other Southern states. UGA and Bama and even UNC may be great schools, but people in Arkansas would take their Razorbacks over them anyday, people in South Carolina will take their Game Cocks, etc.


Dude, you're wrong. I think you're confusing lay prestige with legal prestige. Also the OP question wasn't FOR the south, it was IN te south.


...bc for the south, YHS win every time.

vanburen81
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby vanburen81 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:48 pm

flyingpanda wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:
MJMD wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:The schools which have some name recognition and might get you to a different Southern state (but only if you also have ties to that state) are (1st level) Duke and Vanderbilt, (2nd level) Virginia and Washington and Lee, (3rd level) Emory, Tulane, Wake, UNC.


Why is everyone in here extolling Duke over Virginia? Is it just because it's private? Virginia has the higher USNWR ranking and kicks Duke's ass when it comes to both federal clerkships and BigLaw hiring. It's also the local state school in Virginia, making it dominant within that state in a way that Duke and Vanderbilt cannot necessarily claim in North Carolina or Tennesse. What am I missing here?


UVA might be a better school than Duke. It might place better in Biglaw and federal clerkships. But if I was looking for a job at a private firm in Alabama or Louisiana I'd rather be median at Duke than median at UVA. Duke just has much better name recognition in the South. If you're from Bama and trying to get a job at a firm in B'ham and you went to UVA, people would be like, maybe UVA's a good school but why didn't you go to U Bama? I just think its different if said person went to Duke. UVA is kind of special though because I think it is the ONLY state school that will get to other Southern states. UGA and Bama and even UNC may be great schools, but people in Arkansas would take their Razorbacks over them anyday, people in South Carolina will take their Game Cocks, etc.


Dude, you're wrong. I think you're confusing lay prestige with legal prestige. Also the OP question wasn't FOR the south, it was IN te south.


Well, OP can just as easily look up US News rankings and figure out which schools are in the South as anyone else.

I admit I am conflating the two (lay and legal) prestige a bit. But I think even practicing lawyers do that to some extent. Check the attorney bios of private firms in the South -- you'll find all firms are dominated by people who went to the local state school, some people who went to the local private TTT, a few people who went to Vandy, perhaps a couple Emory, Tulane or W & L people. You'll almost never see people who went to other Southern state schools. Obviously a big part of this is self selection of course, but Southerners also like to take care of their own.

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flyingpanda
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby flyingpanda » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:51 pm

vanburen81 wrote:
Well, OP can just as easily look up US News rankings and figure out which schools are in the South as anyone else.

I admit I am conflating the two (lay and legal) prestige a bit. But I think even practicing lawyers do that to some extent. Check the attorney bios of private firms in the South -- you'll find all firms are dominated by people who went to the local state school, some people who went to the local private TTT, a few people who went to Vandy, perhaps a couple Emory, Tulane or W & L people. You'll almost never see people who went to other Southern state schools. Obviously a big part of this is self selection of course, but Southerners also like to take care of their own.


I agree with that but there's more to it. How many people going to UVA are going to target small/local Southern firms? This just plays up the importance of ties to the area. A Duke grad is going to have just as hard a time getting into a small, local firm as a UVA grad.

vanburen81
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby vanburen81 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:58 pm

flyingpanda wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:
Well, OP can just as easily look up US News rankings and figure out which schools are in the South as anyone else.

I admit I am conflating the two (lay and legal) prestige a bit. But I think even practicing lawyers do that to some extent. Check the attorney bios of private firms in the South -- you'll find all firms are dominated by people who went to the local state school, some people who went to the local private TTT, a few people who went to Vandy, perhaps a couple Emory, Tulane or W & L people. You'll almost never see people who went to other Southern state schools. Obviously a big part of this is self selection of course, but Southerners also like to take care of their own.


I agree with that but there's more to it. How many people going to UVA are going to target small/local Southern firms? This just plays up the importance of ties to the area. A Duke grad is going to have just as hard a time getting into a small, local firm as a UVA grad.


This may be true. And the big firms in places like B'ham, Jackson, New Orleans, etc. obviously know UVA is a very good school. With the possible exception of UVA though I'd say the well known private schools will have greater mobility than the top public ones. Anyway, without local ties you're in for a world of hurt.

showNprove
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby showNprove » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:46 pm

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Last edited by showNprove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vanburen81
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby vanburen81 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:22 pm

showNprove wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:
MJMD wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:The schools which have some name recognition and might get you to a different Southern state (but only if you also have ties to that state) are (1st level) Duke and Vanderbilt, (2nd level) Virginia and Washington and Lee, (3rd level) Emory, Tulane, Wake, UNC.


Why is everyone in here extolling Duke over Virginia? Is it just because it's private? Virginia has the higher USNWR ranking and kicks Duke's ass when it comes to both federal clerkships and BigLaw hiring. It's also the local state school in Virginia, making it dominant within that state in a way that Duke and Vanderbilt cannot necessarily claim in North Carolina or Tennesse. What am I missing here?


UVA might be a better school than Duke. It might place better in Biglaw and federal clerkships. But if I was looking for a job at a private firm in Alabama or Louisiana I'd rather be median at Duke than median at UVA. Duke just has much better name recognition in the South. If you're from Bama and trying to get a job at a firm in B'ham and you went to UVA, people would be like, maybe UVA's a good school but why didn't you go to U Bama? I just think its different if said person went to Duke. UVA is kind of special though because I think it is the ONLY state school that will get to other Southern states. UGA and Bama and even UNC may be great schools, but people in Arkansas would take their Razorbacks over them anyday, people in South Carolina will take their Game Cocks, etc.

LOL. You have no idea. Alabama firms flock to UVa. There's one that comes every year to hire 4-5 UVa 1L's, let alone upperclassmen. Birmingham has a fetish for UVa students.


I've been researching the Alabama market recently. Have come across very few UVA people working at B'Ham, Mobile, or Montgomery firms (the cities I've been looking at). I'm sure you're right that they send some people up to UVA for OCI and maybe would be very happy to get some UVA people. I just don't actually see many UVA people working at the firms in Alabama. I've also been researching Mississippi's market and I can't recall seeing a single UVA grad at any of the firms whose attorney profiles I've scrolled through. I guess I haven't seen too many Duke people either -- much more Vandy people in both markets. I'm sure some of this is self-selection.

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thickfreakness
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby thickfreakness » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:09 pm

vanburen81 wrote:
MJMD wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:
UVA might be a better school than Duke. It might place better in Biglaw and federal clerkships. But if I was looking for a job at a private firm in Alabama or Louisiana I'd rather be median at Duke than median at UVA. Duke just has much better name recognition in the South. If you're from Bama and trying to get a job at a firm in B'ham and you went to UVA, people would be like, maybe UVA's a good school but why didn't you go to U Bama? I just think its different if said person went to Duke. UVA is kind of special though because I think it is the ONLY state school that will get to other Southern states. UGA and Bama and even UNC may be great schools, but people in Arkansas would take their Razorbacks over them anyday, people in South Carolina will take their Game Cocks, etc.

LOL. You have no idea. Alabama firms flock to UVa. There's one that comes every year to hire 4-5 UVa 1L's, let alone upperclassmen. Birmingham has a fetish for UVa students.


I've been researching the Alabama market recently. Have come across very few UVA people working at B'Ham, Mobile, or Montgomery firms (the cities I've been looking at). I'm sure you're right that they send some people up to UVA for OCI and maybe would be very happy to get some UVA people. I just don't actually see many UVA people working at the firms in Alabama. I've also been researching Mississippi's market and I can't recall seeing a single UVA grad at any of the firms whose attorney profiles I've scrolled through. I guess I haven't seen too many Duke people either -- much more Vandy people in both markets. I'm sure some of this is self-selection.


You're just wrong, man. I lived in Birmingham before coming to Duke and there are a multitude of Birmingham firms that recruit actively at UVA. I'm not sure how one could evaluate placement between Duke and UVA (and probably Vanderbilt) in Birmingham due to self-selection at those schools, but suffice it to say that after talking to MANY local hiring partners and recruiting coordinators I think that Duke, UVA, and Vanderbilt students are VERY MUCH in demand in Birmingham. Obviously, local connections are going to be very important for a job in Alabama, so I would be wary of trying unless you're from the state or have some other very compelling reason to practice there. But still, if you've got decent grades and Alabama connections at Duke, UVA, or Vandy, I'd think your odds of landing a solid firm job in-state would be very, very good--and I doubt seriously that it would matter much which of the three you were attending.

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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby vamedic03 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:24 pm

vanburen81 wrote:I've been researching the Alabama market recently. Have come across very few UVA people working at B'Ham, Mobile, or Montgomery firms (the cities I've been looking at). I'm sure you're right that they send some people up to UVA for OCI and maybe would be very happy to get some UVA people. I just don't actually see many UVA people working at the firms in Alabama. I've also been researching Mississippi's market and I can't recall seeing a single UVA grad at any of the firms whose attorney profiles I've scrolled through. I guess I haven't seen too many Duke people either -- much more Vandy people in both markets. I'm sure some of this is self-selection.


I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you're talking about.

Look at the following numbers of UVA grads:

Bradley Arant - 35+ UVA grades in Alabama offices

Balch & Bingham - 9

Maynard Cooper - 14

That's not too shabby and really undercuts the assertions you're making.

Is Alabama a major market for UVA? No; but, does UVA have a very solid, established alumni base in Alabama? Yes

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General Tso
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby General Tso » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:43 pm

what does the winner get?

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thickfreakness
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby thickfreakness » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:44 pm

General Tso wrote:what does the winner get?


Sesame chicken, the best kind of chinese-food chicken.

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Bosque
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby Bosque » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:56 pm

thickfreakness wrote:
General Tso wrote:what does the winner get?


Sesame chicken, the best kind of chinese-food chicken.


Hell no. Imperial Chicken FTW. :P

Nah, sesame is really good too.

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stratocophic
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby stratocophic » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:03 am

MJMD wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:The schools which have some name recognition and might get you to a different Southern state (but only if you also have ties to that state) are (1st level) Duke and Vanderbilt, (2nd level) Virginia and Washington and Lee, (3rd level) Emory, Tulane, Wake, UNC.


Why is everyone in here extolling Duke over Virginia? Is it just because it's private? Virginia has the higher USNWR ranking and kicks Duke's ass when it comes to both federal clerkships and BigLaw hiring. It's also the local state school in Virginia, making it dominant within that state in a way that Duke and Vanderbilt cannot necessarily claim in North Carolina or Tennesse. What am I missing here?
I'm sorry. Let me get this straight. Are you telling me that the presence of a law school at the University of Tennessee-Knoxville makes Vanderbilt less dominant in Tennessee? At the University of Tennessee-Knoxville?

--ImageRemoved--

On this, we disagree.

vanburen81
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby vanburen81 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:04 am

vamedic03 wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:I've been researching the Alabama market recently. Have come across very few UVA people working at B'Ham, Mobile, or Montgomery firms (the cities I've been looking at). I'm sure you're right that they send some people up to UVA for OCI and maybe would be very happy to get some UVA people. I just don't actually see many UVA people working at the firms in Alabama. I've also been researching Mississippi's market and I can't recall seeing a single UVA grad at any of the firms whose attorney profiles I've scrolled through. I guess I haven't seen too many Duke people either -- much more Vandy people in both markets. I'm sure some of this is self-selection.


I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you're talking about.

Look at the following numbers of UVA grads:

Bradley Arant - 35+ UVA grades in Alabama offices

Balch & Bingham - 9

Maynard Cooper - 14

That's not too shabby and really undercuts the assertions you're making.

Is Alabama a major market for UVA? No; but, does UVA have a very solid, established alumni base in Alabama? Yes


I just checked Balch and Bingham. They have 9 total in all of their offices -- 7 in B'ham and 2 in Jackson. For Comparison, Tulane, a school at the bottom of T1, also has 7 in B'ham, 3 in Jackson, and 1 in Montgomery.

Burr Forman has 5 UVA people at their B'Ham office; Vanderbilt has 11.

Look, I'm not disagreeing with the general notion that if you're from a Southern state and went to UVA you can come home with that degree. It's certainly a well respected school by the big firms in the South. But considering how huge the school is it really doesn't actually place many students in the South. Again, I'm sure some of that is self-selection. This seems pretty true of Duke and perhaps I exaggerated their placement. Even the Southerners who attend those schools typically want to end up practicing in NYC/D.C. I think Vandy probably places the most of its students spread out throughout the South.

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby romothesavior » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:07 am

Are you guys kidding me? Clearly the answer is Nova Southeastern.

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thecilent
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby thecilent » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:08 am

romothesavior wrote:Are you guys kidding me? Clearly the answer is Nova Southeastern.

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deadpanic
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby deadpanic » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:12 am

thecilent wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Are you guys kidding me? Clearly the answer is Nova Southeastern Barry.


Fixed

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thecilent
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby thecilent » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:14 am

IBNorBRound3

vanburen81
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby vanburen81 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:16 am

stratocophic wrote:
MJMD wrote:
vanburen81 wrote:The schools which have some name recognition and might get you to a different Southern state (but only if you also have ties to that state) are (1st level) Duke and Vanderbilt, (2nd level) Virginia and Washington and Lee, (3rd level) Emory, Tulane, Wake, UNC.


Why is everyone in here extolling Duke over Virginia? Is it just because it's private? Virginia has the higher USNWR ranking and kicks Duke's ass when it comes to both federal clerkships and BigLaw hiring. It's also the local state school in Virginia, making it dominant within that state in a way that Duke and Vanderbilt cannot necessarily claim in North Carolina or Tennesse. What am I missing here?
I'm sorry. Let me get this straight. Are you telling me that the presence of a law school at the University of Tennessee-Knoxville makes Vanderbilt less dominant in Tennessee? At the University of Tennessee-Knoxville?

--ImageRemoved--

On this, we disagree.


Check the firms in Knoxville and Chattanooga (Miller and Martin, Baker Donelson offices, Leitner, Williams, Dooley & Napolitan) way more Tennessee grads than Vandy grads. Now that doesn't mean those firms don't go deeper into the class at Vandy than at Tenn, it may just mean a whole lot more Tenn people want to practice there. But when you have firms that are dominated by one school, they probably tend to like hiring more people from their school. That said, I think Vandy places great in Nashville, well in the rest of Tennessee, and well in the rest of the Southeast.

Just because there's a better private school in the state doesn't mean the firms prefer it to their state school. The other three examples of this are Duke in NC, Emory in Georgia, and Tulane in Louisiana. With Duke it's very hard to gage how well it places in NC because most probably don't want to stay. Emory seems to place well in Atlanta, but not necessarily better than UGA, and UGA seems to place better throughout the rest of the state. In Louisiana, Tulane places better than LSU in New Orleans, but LSU dominates the rest of the state. However, you want to leave Georgia, Louisiana, Tennessee then don't go to the state school, go to Emory, Tulane, Vandy...

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby romothesavior » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:37 am

deadpanic wrote:
thecilent wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Are you guys kidding me? Clearly the answer is Nova Southeastern Barry.


Fixed


I understand many people are inclined towards Barry because of their strong bird law program, but I don't think that is enough for it to overcome Nova's international crimes against humanity law. Nova also really takes the cake in rugby law and photography law.

And vanburen, Duke/Vandy don't place as well as UNC/UT because of self-selection.

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jcunni5
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby jcunni5 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:47 am

make a poll

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby romothesavior » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:01 am

Why is this so contentious?

UVA, Duke, Vandy/Texas.

/Thread

Apple Tree
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby Apple Tree » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:34 am

Duke/Vandy/UT. I know UVA is technically considered to be in the south, but most of the people around here are not too familiar with it...Plus, most of its students go work in DC and NYC.

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby romothesavior » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:36 am

Apple Tree wrote:Duke/Vandy/UT. I know UVA is technically considered to be in the south, but most of the people around here are not too familiar with it...Plus, most of its students go work in DC and NYC.


1. Tons of Vandy/Duke students go to NYC and DC.
2. We are talking about legal prospects, not lay prestige.
3. I doubt many people in Florida or South Carolina have any idea how good/bad a law school Texas is either.

vanburen81
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby vanburen81 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:55 am

romothesavior wrote:
Apple Tree wrote:Duke/Vandy/UT. I know UVA is technically considered to be in the south, but most of the people around here are not too familiar with it...Plus, most of its students go work in DC and NYC.


1. Tons of Vandy/Duke students go to NYC and DC.
2. We are talking about legal prospects, not lay prestige.
3. I doubt many people in Florida or South Carolina have any idea how good/bad a law school Texas is either.


True enough about Texas. And of course comparing Vandy/UVA/Duke is hard because of self-selecting.

Duke does definielty have better lay prestige than UVA, but UVA may place just as well as Duke at the larger Southern firms, I don't really know. Basically I think it can be summed up this way -- if you want to work at a medium or large firm in B'Ham, Jackson, Baton Rouge, Charlotte, Jacksonville, etc. either go to the state school, or go to Vandy/Duke/UVA and have ties, or (maybe) go to W & L, Emory, Tulane, Wake and do well in school and have ties. But don't go to UGA hoping for Mississippi just because it's ranked higher than Ole Miss, or Bama over LSU b/c of rankings.

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School in the South

Postby romothesavior » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:59 am

vanburen81 wrote:Duke does definielty have better lay prestige than UVA, but UVA may place just as well as Duke at the larger Southern firms, I don't really know. Basically I think it can be summed up this way -- if you want to work at a medium or large firm in B'Ham, Jackson, Baton Rouge, Charlotte, Jacksonville, etc. either go to the state school, or go to Vandy/Duke/UVA and have ties, or (maybe) go to W & L, Emory, Tulane, Wake and do well in school and have ties. But don't go to UGA hoping for Mississippi just because it's ranked higher than Ole Miss, or Bama over LSU b/c of rankings.


I'd say this is somewhat credited. Other factors like scholarships/total cost are important to keep and mind, and there are going to be some oddities as well (like Emory getting OCI-pwnd this year), but I think you are generally correct.




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