HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

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IndecisiveTransfer
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HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby IndecisiveTransfer » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:31 am

Hey Guys,

I'm a recent transfer trying to decide between UC Davis and Notre Dame. They are comparably ranked (28 and 22) but are also clearly very different. I am not religious, and pretty liberal, so the fact that ND is jesuit raises a large red flag in my mind. I have no problem having catholic friends, but i have been told that some professors are priests, some prayers may be said in class, every dorm has a priest, and every building has its own chapel At the same time it is an amazing school that does emphasize morality in the law and does place graduates nationally (even if most are in the midwest).

UCD matches my personality well and I love the campus and the people. However it is a young law school coming up and is not as well established - not many alumni work outside california. I would really like to choose Davis - my only hesitancy being job placement. I am not entirely decided where I would like to live long term but it is between New York and San Francisco. ND provides both options while UCD provides only one really.

Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!!

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legalease9
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby legalease9 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:37 am

ND doesn't give both options... at all. ND is a midwestern school. You will get a midwestern job out of that school most likely. If you are set on either California or New York, then Davis is your school (because you will get California). Did you apply to Fordham? Either way, ND is a terrible option for the two places YOU want to practice.

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Knock
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby Knock » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:14 am

UC Davis in my opinion.

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20160810
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby 20160810 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:59 am

UC Davis Law has been around since 1965, I don't know that ND's lengthier record of producing alums is really going to help you get a job, since I'd be willing to bet that most people who graduated from ND Law in 1964 or earlier are either retired or decomposing and, accordingly, substantially unable to assist you with your upcoming search for a legal job. So I'd not worry about the "ND is older" argument; it's basically a non-factor.

Ranking is another poor way to make this decision. Although they are essentially peer schools, ND has the slight edge in this department, but not enough to really make the choice matter overmuch. If your goal was to get a firm job anywhere in the USA, ND would be your spot, but since you specifically want to work in NYC (going to be difficult from both) or CA (which UCD virtually guarantees), the choice is easy.

Additionally, I'd dispense with NYC for another reason: The NYC firms (or firms with NYC offices) that interview at ND and UCD's OCIs probably won't be hiring an unranked transfer student. ITE, kids in the top-15% are going to struggle to land those jobs. So NYC biglaw is pretty much a non-option for you at this point, unfortunately.

In any event, to sum up, my opinion is biased, but Davis is still the right choice.

pohboydomer
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby pohboydomer » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:03 am

IndecisiveTransfer wrote:Hey Guys,

I'm a recent transfer trying to decide between UC Davis and Notre Dame. They are comparably ranked (28 and 22) but are also clearly very different. I am not religious, and pretty liberal, so the fact that ND is jesuit raises a large red flag in my mind. I have no problem having catholic friends, but i have been told that some professors are priests, some prayers may be said in class, every dorm has a priest, and every building has its own chapel At the same time it is an amazing school that does emphasize morality in the law and does place graduates nationally (even if most are in the midwest).

UCD matches my personality well and I love the campus and the people. However it is a young law school coming up and is not as well established - not many alumni work outside california. I would really like to choose Davis - my only hesitancy being job placement. I am not entirely decided where I would like to live long term but it is between New York and San Francisco. ND provides both options while UCD provides only one really.

Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!!


First, ND isn't Jesuit. It's run by the Congregation of the Holy Cross. Georgetown and Boston College are run by Jesuits.

Second, why would a religious institution "raise[] a large red flag in [your] mind"? If you have a problem with the fact that two or three professors might also be priests, or that the undergraduates live in dormitories (where you won't live) with a priest or nun in the same building and a chapel, then it sounds like off the top that you definitely have a "problem" with Catholics.

Notre Dame is a Catholic school. If you can't get over the fact that some people might choose to express their Catholic faith publicly and prefer an environment where non-religion stifles the school, go for it.

But for virtually all non-Catholics at ND (based upon your post, you might end up being the exception), it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.

As for Davis, I can't say a whole lot, but the people who think that 1965 doesn't really matter aren't exactly right. ND has a ton of lay prestige (which, surprisingly, can matter), it has long roots for those who didn't attend ND or create its alumni base, and the prestigious undergrad also helps with the alumni network. I can't say what the relative strengths are with Davis. But football is obviously a strength with ND--it's a great way to get away on the weekends with campus friends.

Finally, as for job placement, ND sends 20-30 people each year back to California, which is big for a class size of only 180. Davis, meanwhile, keeps virtually everyone in-state. The last bar data said the split was something like 40-50 to Illinois, 20-30 to California, 20-30 to New York, and a bunch of people all over the country. So if you want geographic diversity, then hands down it's Notre Dame.

I'll let the Davis defenders speak up, because I don't really have anything negative to say about them, but I can't say a whole lot other than "good in California."

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Teoeo
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby Teoeo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:27 am

pohboydomer wrote:
IndecisiveTransfer wrote:Hey Guys,

I'm a recent transfer trying to decide between UC Davis and Notre Dame. They are comparably ranked (28 and 22) but are also clearly very different. I am not religious, and pretty liberal, so the fact that ND is jesuit raises a large red flag in my mind. I have no problem having catholic friends, but i have been told that some professors are priests, some prayers may be said in class, every dorm has a priest, and every building has its own chapel At the same time it is an amazing school that does emphasize morality in the law and does place graduates nationally (even if most are in the midwest).

UCD matches my personality well and I love the campus and the people. However it is a young law school coming up and is not as well established - not many alumni work outside california. I would really like to choose Davis - my only hesitancy being job placement. I am not entirely decided where I would like to live long term but it is between New York and San Francisco. ND provides both options while UCD provides only one really.

Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!!


First, ND isn't Jesuit. It's run by the Congregation of the Holy Cross. Georgetown and Boston College are run by Jesuits.

Second, why would a religious institution "raise[] a large red flag in [your] mind"? If you have a problem with the fact that two or three professors might also be priests, or that the undergraduates live in dormitories (where you won't live) with a priest or nun in the same building and a chapel, then it sounds like off the top that you definitely have a "problem" with Catholics.

Notre Dame is a Catholic school. If you can't get over the fact that some people might choose to express their Catholic faith publicly and prefer an environment where non-religion stifles the school, go for it.

But for virtually all non-Catholics at ND (based upon your post, you might end up being the exception), it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.

As for Davis, I can't say a whole lot, but the people who think that 1965 doesn't really matter aren't exactly right. ND has a ton of lay prestige (which, surprisingly, can matter), it has long roots for those who didn't attend ND or create its alumni base, and the prestigious undergrad also helps with the alumni network. I can't say what the relative strengths are with Davis. But football is obviously a strength with ND--it's a great way to get away on the weekends with campus friends.

Finally, as for job placement, ND sends 20-30 people each year back to California, which is big for a class size of only 180. Davis, meanwhile, keeps virtually everyone in-state. The last bar data said the split was something like 40-50 to Illinois, 20-30 to California, 20-30 to New York, and a bunch of people all over the country. So if you want geographic diversity, then hands down it's Notre Dame.

I'll let the Davis defenders speak up, because I don't really have anything negative to say about them, but I can't say a whole lot other than "good in California."


TINTCR - go to Davis

edit: you might find this interesting: http://californiabar.globl.org/report.p ... 0&g=2&pp=5

td6624
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby td6624 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:36 pm

pohboydomer wrote:
But for virtually all non-Catholics at ND (based upon your post, you might end up being the exception), it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.


Maybe she'd be uncomfortable attending an institution that refuses to allow a gay student group to form and that refuses to add sexual orientation to it's non-discrimination clause. And maybe she wants to go to a university that can have a performance of the Vagina Monologues without a months-long debate over whether or not it should be allowed. Get real. It's tolerable for non-Catholics, but you're just indignantly missing the point.

CanadianWolf
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:42 pm

Your statement "I have no problem having Catholic friends..." says it all.

What prompted you to apply to Notre Dame ?

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Teoeo
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby Teoeo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:45 pm

td6624 wrote:
pohboydomer wrote:
But for virtually all non-Catholics at ND (based upon your post, you might end up being the exception), it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.


Maybe she'd be uncomfortable attending an institution that refuses to allow a gay student group to form and that refuses to add sexual orientation to it's non-discrimination clause. And maybe she wants to go to a university that can have a performance of the Vagina Monologues without a months-long debate over whether or not it should be allowed. Get real. It's tolerable for non-Catholics, but you're just indignantly missing the point.


+1 - you pwned em

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Grizz
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby Grizz » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:49 pm

pohboydomer wrote:Finally, as for job placement, ND sends 20-30 people each year back to California, which is big for a class size of only 180. Davis, meanwhile, keeps virtually everyone in-state. The last bar data said the split was something like 40-50 to Illinois, 20-30 to California, 20-30 to New York, and a bunch of people all over the country. So if you want geographic diversity, then hands down it's Notre Dame.


I'm willing to bet that those Cali folks are from the state originally, so if the OP is not from Cali, it's no comparable.

People know ND all over the country, so it's national in that sense. But it's not national in the sense that you'll be able to just get a job anywhere without connections.

OP, go to Davis.

td6624
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby td6624 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:51 pm

oh, also, Notre Dame is in South Bend, Indiana.

pohboydomer
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby pohboydomer » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:19 pm

td6624 wrote:
pohboydomer wrote:
But for virtually all non-Catholics at ND (based upon your post, you might end up being the exception), it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.


Maybe she'd be uncomfortable attending an institution that refuses to allow a gay student group to form and that refuses to add sexual orientation to it's non-discrimination clause. And maybe she wants to go to a university that can have a performance of the Vagina Monologues without a months-long debate over whether or not it should be allowed. Get real. It's tolerable for non-Catholics, but you're just indignantly missing the point.


Ah, how quaint. Rather than address the issues pertaining to Notre Dame Law School, you choose to misrepresent a number of particular causes that occur among the undergraduate student body (ignoring the fact that they are essentially irrelevant to the operation of the law school) and insist that I must be "indignant[]" in missing the point.

Notre Dame (the undergraduate institution, in an event unrelated to the law school) has allowed a "gay student group" to form, the University's official "Core Council," which is not a formal advocacy group. A number of students continue to run an unofficially recognized group known as "AllianceND," which, while not formally recognized by the university, has been "allow[ed]...to form" and engages in regular protests and demonstrations without obstruction from the university (such as its "Gay? Fine by me" campaign).

Notre Dame has not included "sexual orientation to it's [sic] non-discrimination clause," but, beyond my knowledge, perhaps you're familiar with some explicit, overt act committed by the university that denied a student admission because of sexual orientation. Certainly, the bare fact, standing alone, that a school lacks a particular formal "non-discrimination clause" can be symbolic, but it may be entirely unrelated to any actual acts of discrimination.

Notre Dame (the undergraduate institution, in an event unrelated to the law school) did, in fact, have a debate about whether to allow the Vagina Monologues to perform. It was a long, spirited debate. Maybe you don't think that people should talk about theatrical performances that, by their nature, are designed to stir up debate and dialogue, and should instead unquestionably and blindly accept them without rote consideration. And in the end, the university authorized it. And in the end, students eventually stopped performing it.

Now, maybe you (and I mean you, not the OP) have thin enough skin where you're concerned about a number of issues that will never touch the average law student's life unless they go hunting for ways to become offended. But the OP expressed concern about the Catholic and religious nature of the institution, not the particular socially conservative issue positions of the university. The OP's concerns were about priests and prayers and chapels.

But now that you've opened up your own irrelevant concerns about the law school, it's quite obvious that your perspective is one blinded by some kind of anti-Notre Dame agenda driven, in part, by a particular political point of view. And that's perfectly fine. There are a number of liberals at Notre Dame, who, during their time, found time and opportunity to get as outraged as you are about a number of barely-relevant issues that rarely affected them personally, much less the law school. And, appropriately enough, there are a number of conservatives at Notre Dame, who, during their time, found time and opportunity to get as outraged as you are about a number of barely-relevant issues, coming down on the opposite side--shocked that the university would allow a formal gay student group, stunned that protesters would be allowed to picket concerning gay issues, outraged that the university authorized the performance of the Vagina Monologues.

But for you, and the others, in this thread, I haven't seen a case for Davis. I've seen bashing of Notre Dame and a series of cries that I must be "indignantly missing the point," when, in fact, it's who you issued a number of concerns the OP never had and aired them out in this discussion.

Finally, it appears that a number of you (Teoeo included) are fairly illiterate, so I'll try again. I was deconstructing some of the OP's concerns about Notre Dame, and I built a positive case for ND. But I also noted that "If you can't get over the fact that some people might choose to express their Catholic faith," he shouldn't go; that "I can't say a whole lot" about Davis; that "I'll let the Davis defenders speak up, because I don't really have anything negative to say about them"; and that Davis is "good in California."

So, there we go. I doubt I'll earn any "+1s" or be told that I "pwned" anyone or have anyone so snappy as to reply to a thread of mine with a "TITCR," devoid of any actual content. But, to the degree that I can actually help the OP rather than snipe at the posters in this thread, I am happy to do so.

rad law: you raise a fair point about native Californians. I'd like to know where the OP is from. But if the OP has any inclination to go to New York, ND is a far better option. If the OP would be quite happy to take any job available in California, Davis is certainly the safer choice.

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Teoeo
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby Teoeo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:23 pm

Hah, you are right, Imza an illideratez. I lulled at the fact that you are trying to act objective when you are obviously completely in love with ND.


edit: Davis is the obvious answer because it places well in SF and ND doesn't. ND is a school that places primarily in the midwest and as such is the wrong choice for the OP. You can write pages and pages of text to support your position but that won't change the fact that geographic placement should be the #1 concern.
Last edited by Teoeo on Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby Grizz » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:25 pm

pohboydomer wrote:rad law: you raise a fair point about native Californians. I'd like to know where the OP is from. But if the OP has any inclination to go to New York, ND is a far better option. If the OP would be quite happy to take any job available in California, Davis is certainly the safer choice.


Agree with last statement, but since NY is gonna be very unlikely from either, I wouldn't really take it into consideration.

td6624
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby td6624 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:36 pm

pohboydomer wrote:
Ah, how quaint. Rather than address the issues pertaining to Notre Dame Law School, you choose to misrepresent a number of particular causes that occur among the undergraduate student body (ignoring the fact that they are essentially irrelevant to the operation of the law school) and insist that I must be "indignant[]" in missing the point.

Notre Dame (the undergraduate institution, in an event unrelated to the law school) has allowed a "gay student group" to form, the University's official "Core Council," which is not a formal advocacy group. A number of students continue to run an unofficially recognized group known as "AllianceND," which, while not formally recognized by the university, has been "allow[ed]...to form" and engages in regular protests and demonstrations without obstruction from the university (such as its "Gay? Fine by me" campaign).

Notre Dame has not included "sexual orientation to it's [sic] non-discrimination clause," but, beyond my knowledge, perhaps you're familiar with some explicit, overt act committed by the university that denied a student admission because of sexual orientation. Certainly, the bare fact, standing alone, that a school lacks a particular formal "non-discrimination clause" can be symbolic, but it may be entirely unrelated to any actual acts of discrimination.

Notre Dame (the undergraduate institution, in an event unrelated to the law school) did, in fact, have a debate about whether to allow the Vagina Monologues to perform. It was a long, spirited debate. Maybe you don't think that people should talk about theatrical performances that, by their nature, are designed to stir up debate and dialogue, and should instead unquestionably and blindly accept them without rote consideration. And in the end, the university authorized it. And in the end, students eventually stopped performing it.

Now, maybe you (and I mean you, not the OP) have thin enough skin where you're concerned about a number of issues that will never touch the average law student's life unless they go hunting for ways to become offended. But the OP expressed concern about the Catholic and religious nature of the institution, not the particular socially conservative issue positions of the university. The OP's concerns were about priests and prayers and chapels.

But now that you've opened up your own irrelevant concerns about the law school, it's quite obvious that your perspective is one blinded by some kind of anti-Notre Dame agenda driven, in part, by a particular political point of view. And that's perfectly fine. There are a number of liberals at Notre Dame, who, during their time, found time and opportunity to get as outraged as you are about a number of barely-relevant issues that rarely affected them personally, much less the law school. And, appropriately enough, there are a number of conservatives at Notre Dame, who, during their time, found time and opportunity to get as outraged as you are about a number of barely-relevant issues, coming down on the opposite side--shocked that the university would allow a formal gay student group, stunned that protesters would be allowed to picket concerning gay issues, outraged that the university authorized the performance of the Vagina Monologues.

But for you, and the others, in this thread, I haven't seen a case for Davis. I've seen bashing of Notre Dame and a series of cries that I must be "indignantly missing the point," when, in fact, it's who you issued a number of concerns the OP never had and aired them out in this discussion.

Finally, it appears that a number of you (Teoeo included) are fairly illiterate, so I'll try again. I was deconstructing some of the OP's concerns about Notre Dame, and I built a positive case for ND. But I also noted that "If you can't get over the fact that some people might choose to express their Catholic faith," he shouldn't go; that "I can't say a whole lot" about Davis; that "I'll let the Davis defenders speak up, because I don't really have anything negative to say about them"; and that Davis is "good in California."

So, there we go. I doubt I'll earn any "+1s" or be told that I "pwned" anyone or have anyone so snappy as to reply to a thread of mine with a "TITCR," devoid of any actual content. But, to the degree that I can actually help the OP rather than snipe at the posters in this thread, I am happy to do so.

rad law: you raise a fair point about native Californians. I'd like to know where the OP is from. But if the OP has any inclination to go to New York, ND is a far better option. If the OP would be quite happy to take any job available in California, Davis is certainly the safer choice.


Apparently NDLS didn't teach you how to be concise.

To act as though concerns regarding Catholicism don't indicate concerns for the socially conservative nature of the university (of which the law school is a part) is to be willfully ignorant of how people actually perceive their environment.

The "Core Council" has, what, five students on it? And it does...what, exactly? Oh, right. Nothing. The university threw a meager bone. It helps no one. "AllianceND" has no official standing with the university. It's people who get together and make t-shirts. It helps no one and has no budget to start helping people.

I am familiar of a story of a janitor who was purportedly fired after it became known that he was a homosexual. But maybe I was lied to. Who knows? But it doesn't just have the potential to be symbolic. It is symbolic. It means "you're not really welcome here." And please, please don't bullshit me about the "spirit of inclusion" nonsense.

There should be no debate about whether a play like the VM should be allowed to be held on campus. Debate the merits of it, not whether or not it can be shown. Otherwise, while we're at it, why don't we root through the library and remove every book that conservative Catholics deem offensive?

For many people, hunting is not required in order to be offended by certain things that go on at that university (of which the law school is a part).

Also, Notre Dame is in South Bend, Indiana. Go to Davis.

That said, I will always love Notre Dame.

td6624
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby td6624 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:21 pm

One more thing, what's with giving credit to the school for allowing people to purchase and wear t-shirts? What sort of standards are we working with here?

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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:40 pm

.
Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gdane
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby gdane » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:03 pm

This Poboydough person came on here to start a religious fight. Dont aggravate him/her/it. Its obvious that he/she/it takes his/her/its religion seriously and thats fine. However, the original poster's sentiments are his and if ND's religious background is a red flag to him, so be it. This argument can be made for other things as well. Berkely's perceived hippy culture could be a red flag for some people, etc etc.

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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby czelede » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:59 pm

td6624 wrote:One more thing, what's with giving credit to the school for allowing people to purchase and wear t-shirts? What sort of standards are we working with here?


IA with this. ND is a great school, and while I have had non-Catholic friends enjoy their education (legal or undergraduate) in South Bend quite fine, it is definitely not for everyone.

That being said, I think the ND stan on this thread is grossly overestimating ND's placement capabilities ITE. OP clearly has a MUCH better shot at CA with Davis than ND, and as for NY there is such a limited shot with either schools that it really deosn't matter.

Additionally, the "lay prestige" bump of ND:

1) Is much greater in the eyes of ND attendees/grads/hopefuls (and those who attended small town Catholic high schools in the Midwest - these are two very overlapping circles, might I add)
2) won't really matter to those who matter (ESPECIALLY in this economy)

Also, may I just say that "XX School has a great football team" is one of the worst reasons to pick a law school. First, the amount of fans that love your sports team are probably equal to or less than those who hate it (cough Duke, USC). Second, in the case of ND specifically, you are using it as "something to do/enjoy". Having a good football team in a little town the middle of nowhere with a school that has close proximity to all kinds of neat cities and beaches/oceans isn't much of a contest if you want to compare QOL.

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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby Pearalegal » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:14 pm

UC Davis is the best choice for you.

(The religious debate is stupid. ND is ND, and while it has many great qualities, wishing to support and provide a welcoming place for lifestyles and views that go against the Catholic tradition isn't one of them. Cannot be argued)

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20160810
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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby 20160810 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:23 pm

Pearalegal wrote:UC Davis is the best choice for you.

(The religious debate is stupid. ND is ND, and while it has many great qualities, wishing to support and provide a welcoming place for lifestyles and views that go against the Catholic tradition isn't one of them. Cannot be argued)

I agree on both counts here. I don't like when people make law school decisions based on either fears about the religious/political climate (except in extreme cases, e.g. Regent or Liberty) or ideas about lay prestige. Neither thing really matters.

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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby Pearalegal » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:31 pm

SoftBoiledLife wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:UC Davis is the best choice for you.

(The religious debate is stupid. ND is ND, and while it has many great qualities, wishing to support and provide a welcoming place for lifestyles and views that go against the Catholic tradition isn't one of them. Cannot be argued)

I agree on both counts here. I don't like when people make law school decisions based on either fears about the religious/political climate (except in extreme cases, e.g. Regent or Liberty) or ideas about lay prestige. Neither thing really matters.


I almost went to NDLS, and had to think long and hard about the religious influence on the university. However, there were many other bigger concerns (to me) when it came to job placement and QOL that led me to pick my current school. There's nothing wrong with asking questions about such things (and most people who go nutso over ND either way has never attended), but more practical concerns for OP override the need to examine those IMO.

Good luck OP!

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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby IndecisiveTransfer » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:39 pm

Thank you all so much for the feedback! I really didn't mean to start a religious debate, so I apologize for the careless wording above. Please forgive a tired summer intern. I really do not have a problem with anyone freely expressing their religion. My father is actually catholic. However I've always lived in very diverse environments and visiting ND even for 12 hours was a bit of a culture shock. It does make me a little uncomfortable living somewhere where everyone carries the same belief system and I do not. To answer someone's question, I applied there b/c it is a great school and I was not guaranteed admission to other schools. I also did not mean to make sweeping comments such as ND places everywhere. I am aware of the job market in NY as I have worked at 2 large law firms there and am transferring from Hofstra. Admittedly, I have good connections in NY but this is obviously not any guarantee so I was hoping the law school I pick might also be able to help with that. ND does seem to place in both NY and CA even if the majority is in Chicago.

Continued advice on either law school would still be helpful! Especially if anyone has any advice on the fact that neither law school officially ranks their students (general ranking is determined by a formula). Thank you guys again for taking time out to respond!

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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby td6624 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:40 pm

xyzzzzzzzz wrote:at ND, no one has to go hunting for things to be offended by
see http://www.towleroad.com/2010/01/notre-dame-student-paper-prints-cartoon-advocating-gay-bashing.html


sigh

The cartoon did not advocate gay bashing in its intention. Was it in poor taste? Absolutely. Should the editors have nixed it? Absolutely. Does it "advocate gay bashing?" Of course not. The point of the cartoon was to mock the socially conservative/conservative Catholic nature of a large portion of the student body.

It's a very serious problem at Notre Dame, and honestly, my biggest problem with it was that it gave homophobic bigots an outlet to claim that they weren't bigots because, you know, they'd never print a cartoon like that! It was intended to bring the problem into the student body's consciousness, and instead the tastelessness of the joke overshadowed the relevant conversations it was meant to start.

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Re: HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law

Postby 20160810 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:59 pm

IndecisiveTransfer wrote:Thank you all so much for the feedback! I really didn't mean to start a religious debate, so I apologize for the careless wording above. Please forgive a tired summer intern. I really do not have a problem with anyone freely expressing their religion. My father is actually catholic. However I've always lived in very diverse environments and visiting ND even for 12 hours was a bit of a culture shock. It does make me a little uncomfortable living somewhere where everyone carries the same belief system and I do not. To answer someone's question, I applied there b/c it is a great school and I was not guaranteed admission to other schools. I also did not mean to make sweeping comments such as ND places everywhere. I am aware of the job market in NY as I have worked at 2 large law firms there and am transferring from Hofstra. Admittedly, I have good connections in NY but this is obviously not any guarantee so I was hoping the law school I pick might also be able to help with that. ND does seem to place in both NY and CA even if the majority is in Chicago.

Continued advice on either law school would still be helpful! Especially if anyone has any advice on the fact that neither law school officially ranks their students (general ranking is determined by a formula). Thank you guys again for taking time out to respond!

UCD does rank students. You don't know precisely where you are, but you know, down to the nearest 5%, where you stand relative to the class.




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