Phoenix School of Law vs. Appalachian School of Law Forum

[BeautifulSW]

I don't know what the employment market is like in Phoenix since the Arizona economy cratered. I have a feeling that lawyers are still doing more-or-less okay, though, since the place wasn't saturated with legal talent to begin with.

Here in N.Mex., firms and public entities are still hiring but they're doing it in onesies and twosies not recruiting classes the way NYC BigLaw does. Or maybe used to do, I guess. If you trot on over with your shiny new J.D. and pass our notoriously easy Bar exam, you'll get interviews and have a decent shot at a job. (Class rank does matter.)

But be aware: Even our larger firms (which are small by NYC standards) don't even begin to pay what the big boys do. Figure that a new state employee will make $45-50K to start with full benefits, paid sick and annual leave and retirement. It IS 40 hours a week, too, so there's some time to live life. Private firms pay more but work you harder. Still, I'd GUESS a new hire can't expect more than maybe $60K.

The cost of living is very low except in Santa Fe where it's only moderately low. The more remote the location is from Albuquerque/Santa Fe, the better chance of landing a job and the higher the starting salary will be.

[Romeosgal]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

[Veyron]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

Please disregard this poster, I highly suspect that they work for the school. MODS?

[BG4444]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

Where are these stats for PSL located?

[clseller]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

Please disregard this poster, I highly suspect that they work for the school. MODS?

I second that. At least make it believable by having more than one post.

[westinghouse60]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

Please disregard this poster, I highly suspect that they work for the school. MODS?

What kind of school advertises by posting on a law school forum? I love the way they were able to note obscure statistics about the schools bar passage rate in a specific month in comparison to other state schools. I don't know why but this is really funny, maybe just because its 4 AM.

Regarding OP's question, I wouldn't recommend attend either school, like everyone else said. What kind of employment options do you have available to you now? You could work for a few years to separate yourself from your GPA, or take some more classes to boost it. Retaking the LSAT would be the easiest way to boost your chances of admission to a better school, but your GPA is whats holding you back the most.

[nickbentley]

how did you manage a 2.38 gpa?

U Albany. #1 Party school in US. Was very bemused the first two years.

U Albany? #1 party school?

I've never seen them listed on even top 100 party school lists...

haha

[lawschool2014]

how did you manage a 2.38 gpa?

U Albany. #1 Party school in US. Was very bemused the first two years.

U Albany? #1 party school?

I've never seen them listed on even top 100 party school lists...

haha

So you went to a crappy undergrad and now you'll go to a crappy law school. It's a perfect match for a below average person.

Btw, I went to a top party school as well but still managed a decent GPA. Just sayin...

[BG4444]

how did you manage a 2.38 gpa?

U Albany. #1 Party school in US. Was very bemused the first two years.

U Albany? #1 party school?

I've never seen them listed on even top 100 party school lists...

haha

Well, review Princeton for after 2001 and you should seem them listed.

[BG4444]

how did you manage a 2.38 gpa?

U Albany. #1 Party school in US. Was very bemused the first two years.

U Albany? #1 party school?

I've never seen them listed on even top 100 party school lists...

haha

So you went to a crappy undergrad and now you'll go to a crappy law school. It's a perfect match for a below average person.

Btw, I went to a top party school as well but still managed a decent GPA. Just sayin...

SUNY Albany is not necessarily a crappy undergrad depending on your course of study. Posts like these are entirely unhelpful.

[voice of reason]

Quite frankly, I find this method of delineation a bit silly as well. Why, for instance, did they decide to lump LA, Long Beach, and Santa Ana (three pretty different/distant places) into one MSA, whereas they split the Bay Area into SF/Oakland/Fremont and San Jose/Santa Clara/Sunnyvale. That makes little or no sense to me.

It's based on contiguous population density, employment, and commuting. Apparently SF/Oakland and the south bay just don't have enough people commuting back and forth between them to count as one area, but LA-Long Beach-Santa Ana do.

[voice of reason]

OP, assuming you're not a flame, your 3 options are outlined below.

Option A:
1. Don't go to law school

Option B:
1. Go to one of these schools
2. Go into crippling, life-long debt
3. Upon graduation, look for a job as a lawyer for 5+ years after graduation while working for free underneath your choice of local ambulance chasers
4. Realize that your school choice destroyed any chance you had at something resembling a career in law
5. Change Careers

Option C:
1. Go to neither school
2: Take as many easy UG classes over the next 1-2 years as possible
3. Get all A's, boost GPA to 3.0+
4. Study relentlessly for the LSAT at the same time, find a school (somewhere will bite) to get you a waiver for the 4th LSAT
5. Apply on the first possible date to a wide range of splitter friendly schools (168, 3.0 would give you a shot at a scholly at WUSTL, Iowa, UIUC, IUB, and the like-all infintely better options than you're currently considering)

Option C is not possible if the OP already graduated from college, which it seemed to me he/she has. That means the GPA is set.

[20160810]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

Everyone should be aware that the IP from which this post was posted resolves to .phoenix.edu. Translation: Not only is Phoenix a god-awful excuse for a law school, they try to disingenuously pimp themselves on Top-Law-Schools.com.

As if this would fool anyone.

[lebroniousjames]

*top party school in the U.S.? you're kidding, right?

[20160810]

*top party school in the U.S.? you're kidding, right?

FWIW, I may have a West Coast bias here, but I've never once heard Albany mentioned in the same breath as schools like ASU, SDSU, UCSB and Chico State.

[BG4444]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

Maybe you are Candy? I haven't see these stats elsewhere.

I am not trying to suggest that PSL is a good school but I would like to know what people here think about this link:

http://www.phoenixlaw.edu/askcandy/post ... -Rate.aspx

[Holly Golightly]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

Everyone should be aware that the IP from which this post was posted resolves to .phoenix.edu. Translation: Not only is Phoenix a god-awful excuse for a law school, they try to disingenuously pimp themselves on Top-Law-Schools.com.

As if this would fool anyone.

hahahahahahahahhahahahahaha, WOW.

[Veyron]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

Maybe you are Candy? I haven't see these stats elsewhere.

I am not trying to suggest that PSL is a good school but I would like to know what people here think about this link:

http://www.phoenixlaw.edu/askcandy/post ... -Rate.aspx

I think that passing the bar does you no good if you can't get a job. Also, the school works bar-prep into their curriculum, unlike ASU and U of A which take a more traditional approach to legal education. This may be because most Sun Devils and Wildcats are good enough students to study for the bar on their own. Not a single large firm in Phoenix (that I know of) has a PSOL grad on their roster (not even #1 in class, EIC of law review).

Also, PSOL was started a few years ago when AZ had a shortage of lawyers. The legal community was very happy about it opening due to this fact. Long term, it still might be a good thing but right now, it is filling a need that isn't there anymore.

[BG4444]

I can highly recommend the Phoenix School of Law. They have a great faculty - including several retired judges; In February, they had a higher bar pass rate than both Arizona State University and University of Arizona's law schools; and the job placement rate is really high. This school has really grown in reputation as well as size in the last couple of years, and for good reason. I have friends who have attended and gotten their JDs from this school and they are happy with their experiences.

Maybe you are Candy? I haven't see these stats elsewhere.

I am not trying to suggest that PSL is a good school but I would like to know what people here think about this link:

http://www.phoenixlaw.edu/askcandy/post ... -Rate.aspx

I think that passing the bar does you no good if you can't get a job. Also, the school works bar-prep into their curriculum, unlike ASU and U of A which take a more traditional approach to legal education. This may be because most Sun Devils and Wildcats are good enough students to study for the bar on their own. Not a single large firm in Phoenix (that I know of) has a PSOL grad on their roster (not even #1 in class, EIC of law review).

Also, PSOL was started a few years ago when AZ had a shortage of lawyers. The legal community was very happy about it opening due to this fact. Long term, it still might be a good thing but right now, it is filling a need that isn't there anymore.

Thank you I appreciate the insight. While ASU and U of A students are likely better students, if two schools were of equal ranking I wonder if law firms prefer a higher bar passage rate with bar prep worked into the curriculum vs. a lower bar passage rate with no bar prep in the curriculum. As an 0L I am not sure how much bar prep has to do with being a good lawyer. I gather PSL's main niche is its part time program for people who currently have jobs who are looking to get a law degree. I wonder if PSL will ever have any presence in big law firms, even if it is just a select few.

[Veyron]

[/quote]


Thank you I appreciate the insight. While ASU and U of A students are likely better students, if two schools were of equal ranking I wonder if law firms prefer a higher bar passage rate with bar prep worked into the curriculum vs. a lower bar passage rate with no bar prep in the curriculum.[/quote]

Fuck if I know, doubt they would care. Large firms hire people who will almost certainly pass the bar the first time around, small firms don’t typically hire people till they have passed the bar.

[/quote]I gather PSL's main niche is its part time program for people who currently have jobs who are looking to get a law degree. [/quote]

No, some professionals actually quit their day job to attend. The niche more correctly ascribed is: PSL is a school for (1) idiots and (2) those for whom getting a J.D. allows them to move into the legal side of an industry in which they are already employed and already have client/job connections. Professionals and small buisness owners who have been out of school for a while and are occupied, you know working, so they can't always get back into study mode enough to get the LSAT score for ASU or U of A even though they might be plenty smart. Which of these categories do you fall into?


[/quote] I wonder if PSL will ever have any presence in big law firms, even if it is just a select few. [/quote]

I’m sure that as the school becomes more established/continues to improve/economy improves / it will eventually happen though I doubt anyone outside of the top 2% or so will ever really have a crack at AZ BIGLAW firms that prefer to hire only the top 10% from schools like ASU and U of A and only the top 50% of even the T-14 (excluding HYS). However, PSOL career services does not focus on placing its students in large firms so anyone who wants to go this route prob will have to go it alone.

[ck3]

It would be far, far easier and far, far cheaper to take the LSAT, get a higher score, and go to a better school

I got a 153,154,156, and in practice tests I could hit 157-160 fairly often. If I retake the LSAT I'd still have a 2.38 gpa to deal with. I'd have to find a new job, have a successful petition for a 4th LSAT, study the LSATs again, and get the 160+. Would a score like 160 only catapult me into a 3T? Would my options be that much better in that case? Would I only be able to apply to the school that accepted my petition for a 4th LSAT or could I use that score to apply anywhere? Is that far far easier than trying to get in the top 10% at PSL at this point?

OP, you sound like you are thinking about this reasonably, which puts you a step ahead of most of the posters who bring up these scenarios. You said that it sounds interesting and would consider it if it weren't a life crippling decision. Well lets look at some numbers: say you take out 130,000 for student loans for your three years. That's 43,333 a year which would assume you can scrape the floors at one of these law schools or have some sort of income during school. When you graduate, you're looking at paying exactly 1,500 a month for 10 years. You're 23? you'll be 33 before you're out of student loan debt. but with a 50k a year job before taxes paying that much is just out of the question, as you're looking at around 25k or less after taxes. So lets make it 25 years. You'll be paying off 900 dollars a month until you're 48. Does that sound enticing to you?

Let's look into some details now. Those numbers are calculated at 6.8% which is the APR for stafford. But you'll have to take out significant GradPlus as well, which accrues at 7.9% interest. So the payments go up about 100$ a month. This doesn't include the 4% interest fee that GradPlus charges when you take out loans. So assuming you can grab a job paying 50k, you'll be paying about 1/3 of your income to loan repayment until you are 48. Does this sound enticing? Other things to consider: you'll be losing 3 years of wages, albeit cost of living is sunk as you'll have to live either way, but you won't be paying for it on a tab charging 7.9% interest. Think about it this way: at about 1,000 a month, finding a 50k job will turn into a 38K job. Think you can find a job that pays 38K right now? Then you're 3 years ahead of the game.

Most of those calculations at the bottom were based on the assumption that you could find a 50K job. I suggest that you spend a good amount of time looking through the employment threads on this website. There are a significant number of graduates at very reputable schools (T1 schools) who would sell there firstborn child for a 50k job right now. You're aware that the market is currently recovering from a recession, and typically one of the last sectors to recover is the employment. OP I want you to realize, you are deciding between two of the very worst schools in the nation. This is not an exaggeration, these are two of the worst accredited schools in the nation. Probably less than 10-15% of either class will find meaning, payable, legal employment upon graduation. If the above paragraph sounds sobering, understand that you have at best a 1/6 chance of even reaching that scenario. I want you to sit down and really, truly, honestly, think to yourself: having a 6 figure debt and no employment IS hands down the most likely scenario of me going to either one of these schools.

have you graduated from UG yet? if so, then you're GPA is set in stone, there's nothing you can do about it. If you would rather die than not go to law school, then gear your life toward retaking at the next possible opportunity (whenever the first LSAT you took expires), study twice as hard as you did for the first three, and reapply to better schools. In all likelyhood, as it sounds like law schools is not an unquenchable burning desire within you, it is my opinion that you should drop the idea altogether. Nobody here is saying that to get a rise out of you, or to feel better about themselves, but it really is the best advice any person can give you.

Think about it.

not saying that this is bad advice but I wanted to point out that it fails to consider that if OP finds a job out of law school at $50K then his salary is likely to increase over the course of 25 years. If at the age of 48 he has a law degree, 25 years of experience and a yearly salary of 80K he will be doing better than most people at the age of 48. Still the OP should carefully consider the numbers you are point out, but he may be able to pay the loans off faster if his 50K job goes to 65 after 5 years and 70K after 12 years. When you consider that many, many people who just have an undergraduate degree are never going to get to 70K, not at the age of 48 and not ever, then it gives you another piece of data to weigh. He also has to weigh the fact he may come out of law school and have to look for a long time to get a 35K a year job and then he also may never get above 55K with his law degree. If he doesn't go to law school, he will either have to pursue some other type of graduate degree or try to compete in this economy with just a bachelors degree. Just having a bachelors does not increase his likelihood of ever making 100K more than obtaining a law degree does. Still it is a lot of debt and he would still have very slim chance of ever making 100K, but there might be a happier median where he can go part time for 4 years while working, come out with 80K debt and pay it off in 15 years and by the age of 40 he has a law degree, experience, he is out of debt and he has a career that has a higher lifetime earning potential than he would have with just a bachelors and a 2.xx GPA. So not totally disagreeing with your advice to the OP, just pointing out that you also have to consider the lifetime earning potential because for most people, your life and your career doesn't end when you are 48.

[BG4444]

Looks like PSL have their first crack and some larger firms...I'd imagine this is only for the few exceptional students but good luck to those who go for this.




Hello 2L's,

Just a reminder that the application deadline for Lewis & Roca, LLP's 2011 Summer Associate program is this Friday at 5pm. The deadline for Snell & Wilmer, LLP's 2011 Summer Associate Program (largest firm in the Southwest) is Monday at 5pm. See the information below on how to submit your application.

This is the first time Lewis & Roca, Snell & Wilmer and the other large firms have recruited at PSL. We are fortunate to be on the short list of schools with whom they do resume collects. Typically they receive at a minimum 40 to 50 applications from each of the Arizona law schools. Thus far, we have 2 applications submitted.

While these programs are competitive, I encourage all of you, with any interest, to take advantage of this opportunity to apply at each of these firms. Realize that their preferred criteria are recommendations only. You should not feel excluded if you do not meet all of them. Each of you brings unique experience to the table and solid application materials can highlight your value. The large firms do 95% of their hiring from their 2L summer program. They do not actively recruit 3L students or recent graduates. Even if you do not aspire to work at a large firm when you graduate, the experience and connections you make at the firm is second to none. They work on national and international clients and house a variety of practice areas under one roof.

[NoJob]

Which school would be better to attend?
Phoenix School of Law vs. Appalachian School of Law

Highest priority would be finding a job after school.
Phoenix does not provide 2010 ABA data for bar passage rate/ job info.
COA Phoenix: $62,316
COA ASL: $49,025

I applied to both these schools this month, July 2010, and was accepted very quickly.
LSAT: 156
GPA: 2.38

I know it will be considered that I should not attend either school.

In any case, I really appreciate any suggestions or insight.


Edit:
What if I attended PSL for one year, or even one semester, to determine whether I would be in the top of the class, and be able to transfer to a better school? If I failed to reach my goal I would forget about law altogether, pursue another career, and pay off loans in that direction. I suppose this would cut my law school loan into 1/3 or 1/6 if I did not reach my goal by the end of the year or end of the semester respectively. Would this be a feasible alternative to petitioning to take the LSAT for a 4th time (153,154,156), or a reasonable alternative to quitting my attempts at law school after a year or two of preparation?

In this economy, you will not get a job graduating from either school.

[BG4444]

Prelaw magazine put PSL in the top 20 value schools based on whether they meet four criteria: 1) their bar pass rate is higher than the state average; 2) their average indebtedness is below $100,000; 3) their employment rate nine months after graduation is 85 percent or higher; and 4) tuition is less than $35,000 a year for in-state residents.

http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/b ... -announced

PSL have admitted students who don't have stellar numbers, but the school seems to be gaining momentum.

[General Tso]

I don't think romeosgal was posting from Phoenix School of Law. phoenix.edu is the domain for the online University of Phoenix, while phoenixlaw.edu is the domain for the separate law school.