Army OCS or Law School? Forum

[LSATfromNC]

I believe serving in the military truly is a calling. Somewhere inside your head you already know whether you're going to join the military or not, same goes for which branch you want to be in.

[Voyager]

oh one other thing.... about your "intelligence" assignment... you should prepare yourself for ending up where ever they decide to put you. That can be tough.

One of my platoon mates at Marine 2nd Lt's Basic School really really wanted artillery. Badly. He didn't get it. Got supply. He was pissed. I found it hilarious.

Aside from that: Army OCS. So much more important for you to do that now than fucking law school.

Yeah man for AF it basically goes like this Academy gets first pick of jobs, then ROTC, then prior enlisted people in OTS, then people like you...

Be prepared to deal with it...

Wow. that sucks. In the Marines all the officers go to TBS where they are ranked.

Then job preferences get handed out like this (assume 100 Lieutenants in the company for simplicity's sake):

#1, #34, #67, #2, #35, #68, #3, #36, #69 etc...

So number 33, a dude in the top third who did quite well, gets one of the very last picks.

That is the quality spread. Ensures even good dudes end up in Supply or Aircraft maintenance or what have you. Also, it ensure that Academy dudes and straight OCS guys are playing on a level field when it comes to job selection.

I think the Army is like the AF... but I'd have to double check with some of my old buddies.

[Kswizzie]

oh one other thing.... about your "intelligence" assignment... you should prepare yourself for ending up where ever they decide to put you. That can be tough.

One of my platoon mates at Marine 2nd Lt's Basic School really really wanted artillery. Badly. He didn't get it. Got supply. He was pissed. I found it hilarious.

Aside from that: Army OCS. So much more important for you to do that now than fucking law school.

Yeah man for AF it basically goes like this Academy gets first pick of jobs, then ROTC, then prior enlisted people in OTS, then people like you...

Be prepared to deal with it...

Wow. that sucks. In the Marines all the officers go to TBS where they are ranked.

Then job preferences get handed out like this (assume 100 Lieutenants in the company for simplicity's sake):

#1, #34, #67, #2, #35, #68, #3, #36, #69 etc...

So number 33, a dude in the top third who did quite well, gets one of the very last picks.

That is the quality spread. Ensures even good dudes end up in Supply or Aircraft maintenance or what have you. Also, it ensure that Academy dudes and straight OCS guys are playing on a level field when it comes to job selection.

I thin the Army is like the AF... but I'd have to double check with some of my old buddies.

Thats kinda bogus considering how the service academies basically destroy your college experience then again I don't know the stats on marines coming from anapolis

[SteelReserve]

So long as you genuinely want to be an officer, you'd be CRAZY to go to law school. The only con is 'not many women in afghanistan', but presumably you're coming out of college so you've had a great deal of fun in the women department to hold you over for four years of meaningful work.

For those four years you will be fit and working in a team oriented environment. Compare to law school, where you will waste some of the best years of your life buried in the rule against perpetuities all in the hope of landing a 40k job while staring down the barrel of 100k+ loans.

You're right the army can be dangerous, but you're just as likely to die in a car accident on the road at 7:30 am hungover and trying to get to a slip and fall or dui defense motion appearance so you can make barely enough scratch to pay off your loans and put ramen noodles on the table.

That's half joking, but not really...

[Voyager]

I believe serving in the military truly is a calling. Somewhere inside your head you already know whether you're going to join the military or not, same goes for which branch you want to be in.

Or you have to be a naive kid who thinks M-16s are bad ass. The truth is, the latter describes how most of us ended up in the Army or Marines when we were 18-22... and frankly, I think that is OK. Again, the experience is amazing. You will always be proud of it.

[A'nold]

Sadly, that is what I am thinking. I'd love to be a lawyer (practicing, happy, well employed). But it just sounds like a pipe dream.

WTF are you talking about? A PIPE DREAM? Seriously? Becoming a "lawyer" from one of the schools on your list will not be difficult. Biglaw, sure, but you are talking about prosecution in your op. C'mon guy, don't believe everything you read on here or other websites about the doom and gloom.

That said, the army sounds like a great idea, if you can handle it.

[deadhipsters]

Thanks for all the responses. I tried to respond earlier on my blackberry it did not work. Here is the deal, I do have a strong commitment to serve. My brother served in Iraq so I do also have realistic expectations of what combat is like. I am torn between army and navy really. Just because I think you would actually have a choice of assignment in the navy and the stuff the intelligence officers get to do is pretty incredible there. My stats 3.5 poly sci, college lax player, 2 years biglaw paralegal, and 1 year ngo work. I think Navy would be out, but if anyone else has some insight it would be appreciated.

Voyager: I do have a desire for airborne... I really enjoy skydiving. So I am open to that. You did Marines? Can you speak to selection process? What your stats were, etc?

[Voyager]

oh one other thing.... about your "intelligence" assignment... you should prepare yourself for ending up where ever they decide to put you. That can be tough.

One of my platoon mates at Marine 2nd Lt's Basic School really really wanted artillery. Badly. He didn't get it. Got supply. He was pissed. I found it hilarious.

Aside from that: Army OCS. So much more important for you to do that now than fucking law school.

Yeah man for AF it basically goes like this Academy gets first pick of jobs, then ROTC, then prior enlisted people in OTS, then people like you...

Be prepared to deal with it...

Wow. that sucks. In the Marines all the officers go to TBS where they are ranked.

Then job preferences get handed out like this (assume 100 Lieutenants in the company for simplicity's sake):

#1, #34, #67, #2, #35, #68, #3, #36, #69 etc...

So number 33, a dude in the top third who did quite well, gets one of the very last picks.

That is the quality spread. Ensures even good dudes end up in Supply or Aircraft maintenance or what have you. Also, it ensure that Academy dudes and straight OCS guys are playing on a level field when it comes to job selection.

I thin the Army is like the AF... but I'd have to double check with some of my old buddies.

Thats kinda bogus considering how the service academies basically destroy your college experience then again I don't know the stats on marines coming from anapolis

Well, naturally I disagree. I think everyone needs to demonstrate what they are capable of. If the Academy guys are really that much better, let them prove it (lol, and frankly, they usually did).

[deadhipsters]

Sadly, that is what I am thinking. I'd love to be a lawyer (practicing, happy, well employed). But it just sounds like a pipe dream.

WTF are you talking about? A PIPE DREAM? Seriously? Becoming a "lawyer" from one of the schools on your list will not be difficult. Biglaw, sure, but you are talking about prosecution in your op. C'mon guy, don't believe everything you read on here or other websites about the doom and gloom.

That said, the army sounds like a great idea, if you can handle it.

A'nold I should have been more specific. I am looking to be a fed prosecutor/ DOJ.

[A'nold]

Sadly, that is what I am thinking. I'd love to be a lawyer (practicing, happy, well employed). But it just sounds like a pipe dream.

WTF are you talking about? A PIPE DREAM? Seriously? Becoming a "lawyer" from one of the schools on your list will not be difficult. Biglaw, sure, but you are talking about prosecution in your op. C'mon guy, don't believe everything you read on here or other websites about the doom and gloom.

That said, the army sounds like a great idea, if you can handle it.

A'nold I should have been more specific. I am looking to be a fed prosecutor/ DOJ.

I don't want to be one of the causes of you dying oversees ( ) but I think this path would be GREAT for your goals. Good luck!

[Voyager]

Thanks for all the responses. I tried to respond earlier on my blackberry it did not work. Here is the deal, I do have a strong commitment to serve. My brother served in Iraq so I do also have realistic expectations of what combat is like. I am torn between army and navy really. Just because I think you would actually have a choice of assignment in the navy and the stuff the intelligence officers get to do is pretty incredible there. My stats 3.5 poly sci, college lax player, 2 years biglaw paralegal, and 1 year ngo work. I think Navy would be out, but if anyone else has some insight it would be appreciated.

Voyager: I do have a desire for airborne... I really enjoy skydiving. So I am open to that. You did Marines? Can you speak to selection process? What your stats were, etc?

Sure. I served as an officer from 1998-2002 and then joined a reserve tank unit for a year in 2003.

Selection is rough. You have to pass Marine OCS which is designed to wash out a bunch of candidates. It is a mental and physical test.

To do well, you need to be able to RUN. To be ok your goal should be AT LEAST a sub-21:30 minute 3 mile, 16 dead hang pull ups, and 100 crunches in 2 minutes.

Ideally you would be sub-20 minutes and have 18 pull ups (max is 20).

They are also testing you on leadership, composure, courage. You and your squad mates will rank the other members of your squad at least twice. The bottom two will be booted.

You get booted if you get hurt and can't gut it out.

You get booted if you break under the stress.

You get booted if you are too slow or weak.

You get booted if you can't lead... and they give you plenty of opportunities to lead your peers (which is difficult).

After you pass OCS and are commissioned you head to The Basic School (TBS) for Lt's training. There you will learn how to be a Marine officer and how to lead an infantry platoon. Every Marine is a rifleman.

You then get your MOS and are sent off to the follow on school and from there... the fleet.

The Marine Corps is serious business. Difficult to get in. Proudest achievement of my life and a damn awesome experience.

Navy is also a great place to go. One of my close friends is former navy intel... she was heavily recruited by CIA, NSA, DOD and who knows who else. She now is in military consulting.

The Navy is much more technically oriented. You will learn about engineering, power plants, etc... as a navy officer. I don't see why Navy would be out. Many of my ROTC classmates did NOT have technical degrees.

Here is an idea: why don't you speak to both the Navy and Army and see if either of them can guarantee intelligence? That might help you decide.

EDIT: My stats? Not sure what you mean. I had ok grades from undergrad but they don't care about that. Fitness? I showed up at OCS able to run 3 miles in 19:20, 18 pull ups and 100 crunches.

EDIT2: I have friends that served in all 4 branches. Several were rangers, others were pilots, one is former Navy intel another is a current Submarine officer, another is an AF missile silo dude and, of course, a bunch of Marines. You want to speak to any of them, PM me.

[Notor]

A'nold I should have been more specific. I am looking to be a fed prosecutor/ DOJ.

Then go to the best school you can get into and get good grades. Joining the Army while we are at war in two countries for some kind of resume booster has to be one of the most misguided and ignorant ideas i've yet read on TLS.

The macho BS that has been posted in this thread is ridiculous. We are at war. This is the absolute worst time to join the military since the height of the Vietnam war. The BS propaganda about "becoming a man" and getting all these great life lessons is just soiled wool being pulled over your eyes. You can grow and learn and live your life and achieve all you could ever want on your own. No one cares more about you than you, no matter what a recruiter might tell you.

[deadhipsters]

Thanks for all the responses. I tried to respond earlier on my blackberry it did not work. Here is the deal, I do have a strong commitment to serve. My brother served in Iraq so I do also have realistic expectations of what combat is like. I am torn between army and navy really. Just because I think you would actually have a choice of assignment in the navy and the stuff the intelligence officers get to do is pretty incredible there. My stats 3.5 poly sci, college lax player, 2 years biglaw paralegal, and 1 year ngo work. I think Navy would be out, but if anyone else has some insight it would be appreciated.

Voyager: I do have a desire for airborne... I really enjoy skydiving. So I am open to that. You did Marines? Can you speak to selection process? What your stats were, etc?

Sure. I served as an officer from 1998-2002 and then joined a reserve tank unit for a year in 2003.

Selection is rough. You have to pass Marine OCS which is designed to wash out a bunch of candidates. It is a mental and physical test.

To do well, you need to be able to RUN. To be ok your goal should be AT LEAST a sub-21:30 minute 3 mile, 16 dead hang pull ups, and 100 crunches in 2 minutes.

Ideally you would be sub-20 minutes and have 18 pull ups (max is 20).

They are also testing you on leadership, composure, courage. You and your squad mates will rank the other members of your squad at least twice. The bottom two will be booted.

You get booted if you get hurt and can't gut it out.

You get booted if you break under the stress.

You get booted if you are too slow or weak.

You get booted if you can't lead... and they give you plenty of opportunities to lead your peers (which is difficult).

After you pass OCS and are commissioned you head to The Basic School (TBS) for Lt's training. There you will learn how to be a Marine officer and how to lead an infantry platoon. Every Marine is a rifleman.

You then get your MOS and are sent off to the follow on school and from there... the fleet.

The Marine Corps is serious business. Difficult to get in. Proudest achievement of my life and a damn awesome experience.

Navy is also a great place to go. One of my close friends is former navy intel... she was heavily recruited by CIA, NSA, DOD and who knows who else. She now is in military consulting.

The Navy is much more technically oriented. You will learn about engineering, power plants, etc... as a navy officer. I don't see why Navy would be out. Many of my ROTC classmates did NOT have technical degrees.

Here is an idea: why don't you speak to both the Navy and Army and see if either of them can guarantee intelligence? That might help you decide.

EDIT: My stats? Not sure what you mean. I had ok grades from undergrad but they don't care about that. Fitness? I showed up at OCS able to run 3 miles in 19:20, 18 pull ups and 100 crunches.

EDIT2: I have friends that served in all 4 branches. Several were rangers, others were pilots, one is former Navy intel another is a current Submarine officer, another is an AF missile silo dude and, of course, a bunch of Marines. You want to speak to any of them, PM me.

Thanks Voyager. You have provided me with a wealth of information today, on other threads as well. I will be meeting with recruiters next week hopefully. I will PM you and let you know what I decide. I like the last idea about guarantee on intel.

[deadhipsters]

Sadly, that is what I am thinking. I'd love to be a lawyer (practicing, happy, well employed). But it just sounds like a pipe dream.

WTF are you talking about? A PIPE DREAM? Seriously? Becoming a "lawyer" from one of the schools on your list will not be difficult. Biglaw, sure, but you are talking about prosecution in your op. C'mon guy, don't believe everything you read on here or other websites about the doom and gloom.

That said, the army sounds like a great idea, if you can handle it.

A'nold I should have been more specific. I am looking to be a fed prosecutor/ DOJ.

I don't want to be one of the causes of you dying oversees ( ) but I think this path would be GREAT for your goals. Good luck!

Ha. I should hope not. Thanks for the input. I realize how crazy it sounds to join up in the middle of this.

[Voyager]

Thanks Voyager. You have provided me with a wealth of information today, on other threads as well. I will be meeting with recruiters next week hopefully. I will PM you and let you know what I decide. I like the last idea about guarantee on intel.

Happy to help! Military recruiters have an ever changing set of rules to play by, so I don't know if they can guarantee anything... but it never hurts to ask.

Your Middle Eastern studies background might give you some leverage. Don't suppose you speak any Arabic or Farsi?

[Aggiegrad2011]

Man mitoonam Farsi harf bezanam

never found it too useful deployed to OEF either. It was either Urdu, Dari or MSA that I was requested to interpret or translate, and especially so for Doc Ex.

OP, the choice to join the military is not one without its perks and its dangers. I wish I didn't come so late to this party, because all the other posters have basically covered everything!

To answer your exact question, there is no conceivable reason why you can't do both; that is, go to OCS and fulfill your "pipe dream" of a career in law!

Good luck in your future endeavors. Movafagh bashid!

[AJRESQ]

I am a practicing attorney with some success. I enjoy the job and the law. I'd go to law school again if given the choice, although many of my peers wouldn't. I'm not a partner at Cravath, but law is my full time gig, I make a pretty good living, own a house, and take a two week vacation every year.

That said: Army OCS for several reasons:

1. Law school will still be there when you're finished
2. Army will help pay for school (not sure if the new GI bill will pay for law school)
3. You will only be in good enough physical shape / young enough to do OCS for a short period of time... but you can always go to law school
4. You make a lot of money in the Army as an officer. Many of my military officer friends have over six figures socked away and own homes, because of things like hazardous duty pay, combat pay, overseas pay, etc., plus they aren't spending any money.
5. Skills you learn in the Army will help you in law
6. You will be competitive to do stuff like the CIA / FBI
7. You will meet a lot of other officers, who will go on to have interesting careers and eventually become your clients / source of referrals

I wouldn't think twice about this. If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have done law school right out of college.

[deadhipsters]

Thanks Voyager. You have provided me with a wealth of information today, on other threads as well. I will be meeting with recruiters next week hopefully. I will PM you and let you know what I decide. I like the last idea about guarantee on intel.

Happy to help! Military recruiters have an ever changing set of rules to play by, so I don't know if they can guarantee anything... but it never hurts to ask.

Your Middle Eastern studies background might give you some leverage. Don't suppose you speak any Arabic or Farsi?

No. I really wish I did. I probably would look directly to the CIA or State Dept. and skip all of this.

[deadhipsters]

Again, I just want to thank everyone for their responses. There was a lot of useful information posted on this board. And I do appreciate it.

[flynavyjets]

I know I'm a lowly 0L, but I can speak to the whole military officer thing:

DO NOT GO ARMY OCS UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE AN OFFICER IN THE ARMY!! Being a military officer comes with some very serious responsibilities. In the military officer corps, we have a saying: "RHIP, RHIR" (Rank has its privileges, Rank has its responsibilities). You might be responsible for the lives of some 18 year old kids who have never been away from home before and you're in the middle of Afghanistan. Shit rolls downhill, but it stops at you. As the JO (junior officer) you catch all the flack for what your boys and girls do under your charge. You will be their mentor, platoon leader, babysitter, financial advisor, marriage counselor, and more.

I beg that you please not use being a military officer as a mere means to an end (especially when it comes to monetary incentives). Yes, the military needs quality people to lead, but this type of commitment (a Commission in the Armed Forces) should not be taken lightly. Seriously consider if you really want to do this. No matter what job you are assigned in whatever branch you enter, you are an officer first.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions about being a military officer.

Respectfully,
FlyNavyJets

[deadhipsters]

A'nold I should have been more specific. I am looking to be a fed prosecutor/ DOJ.

Then go to the best school you can get into and get good grades. Joining the Army while we are at war in two countries for some kind of resume booster has to be one of the most misguided and ignorant ideas i've yet read on TLS.

The macho BS that has been posted in this thread is ridiculous. We are at war. This is the absolute worst time to join the military since the height of the Vietnam war. The BS propaganda about "becoming a man" and getting all these great life lessons is just soiled wool being pulled over your eyes. You can grow and learn and live your life and achieve all you could ever want on your own. No one cares more about you than you, no matter what a recruiter might tell you.

Notor: It is def. not meant solely as a resume booster. A few posters just had mentioned it would carry benefits that would help in the LS admissions process. I would intend to make a career in intelligence and possibly attend grad school for a masters in security/ IR, which I find more interesting than the law anyway. I appreciate your advice all the same. But, as was mentioned before, a Navy Intel officer is probably not going to be seeing much combat. An Army Intel Officer on the other hand is. These are obviously issues that I am weighing. And you do have valid points.

Sorry to triple post. I had been away from my computer for most of the night.

[flynavyjets]

The macho BS that has been posted in this thread is ridiculous. We are at war. This is the absolute worst time to join the military since the height of the Vietnam war. The BS propaganda about "becoming a man" and getting all these great life lessons is just soiled wool being pulled over your eyes. You can grow and learn and live your life and achieve all you could ever want on your own. No one cares more about you than you, no matter what a recruiter might tell you.

Or woman

Like I said, only become a military officer if you want to lead enlisted soldiers/sailors/airmen/Marines. If you want to do military intelligence, that's one thing. If you want to be safe while working in intelligence, get a job with the FBI as an analyst and sit in an air conditioned office in your cubicle.

[03121202698008]

The macho BS that has been posted in this thread is ridiculous. We are at war. This is the absolute worst time to join the military since the height of the Vietnam war. The BS propaganda about "becoming a man" and getting all these great life lessons is just soiled wool being pulled over your eyes. You can grow and learn and live your life and achieve all you could ever want on your own. No one cares more about you than you, no matter what a recruiter might tell you.

Or woman

Like I said, only become a military officer if you want to lead enlisted soldiers/sailors/airmen/Marines. If you want to do military intelligence, that's one thing. If you want to be safe while working in intelligence, get a job with the FBI as an analyst and sit in an air conditioned office in your cubicle.

Being an analyst for the FBI isn't really all the much safer. I worked extensively with them...in Iraq and throughout Europe. Very few actually sat in D.C., and those that did were briefers who had already done their time in the field. They have attaches at nearly every Embassy but are concentrated where the threats they are analyzing are located.

[sbgorms]

This is one of the few topics out there that I can speak intelligently on since I have faced similar decisions.

First off, like many of the previous posters have mentioned, do not become a military officer unless you have a burning desire to do it, no matter what service or branch. There were one too many straight from college types in my Army OCS class who weren't committed to the thought of becoming an Army Officer, and the washout rate amongst that group was enormous (whereas if you were committed to it, were in decent shape, possessed integrity and at least a hint of leadership potential, you were virtually guaranteed to make it through). Washing out of Army OCS and ending up enlisted or out of the Army altogether isn't going to help your future in any way.

2) Be ready to have your life directed by the needs of the Army. They give no guarantees, other than that you will deploy at some point, I don't care what your recruiter says. I happened to get my branch of choice (Infantry), but I had to fight to get it. In addition, between Army schooling, training, and deployments, I spent 27 of my first 39 months in the Army away from my girlfriend-turned-fiance-turned-wife. Be prepared for extensive personal sacrifice along the way. The only regret I have from my Army time is the separations and the impact that it had on my wife (and parents and other family too).

3) You can join the Army (or other military) then do law school, but the reverse is rare unless you want to go JAG--but then again, there are always exceptions. My unit had a Harvard Law grad in a combat role, but I'm going to go ahead and say that's probably atypical. If you want to serve in the Army, do it in your 20's, because you can't do it later in life, period. Depending on life circumstance and future interest, law school will always be there.

4) Post-9/11 GI Bill and Yellow Ribbon Program is awesome. It's not perfect, but it is the best education program for veterans since the GI bill for soldiers returning home from WW2. It is footing the entire bill for my JD/MBA from a pretty good school and makes sacrificing a fairly substantial paycheck to return to school much more palatable.

5) At the end of the day, the most important thing is to do what you love. I think that is part of the reason so many people end up regretting law school/becoming lawyers--they simply don't love it. It was either a default option/path to riches/parental influence/whatever, but it's not what makes them happy. There are plenty of Army officers who will never have a salary as high as a first-year BigLaw associate, but they wake up every morning happy with what they're doing.

If you really want to be an Army officer, jump in with both feet--there will be multiple paths you can take later if you decide its not the career for you (I'd also like to think I made a much smarter decision regarding my education with the experience of a few years in the real world). If you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. And if you just want to be rich, start a business.

[LSATfromNC]

I believe serving in the military truly is a calling. Somewhere inside your head you already know whether you're going to join the military or not, same goes for which branch you want to be in.

Or you have to be a naive kid who thinks M-16s are bad ass. The truth is, the latter describes how most of us ended up in the Army or Marines when we were 18-22... and frankly, I think that is OK. Again, the experience is amazing. You will always be proud of it.

M-16s are badass! Back in garrison you'll get to hold one like every 6 months or so!