Any good T3 or T4 schools?

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Grizz
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:00 pm

ggocat wrote:
rad law wrote:Especially considering the fact that more prestigious schools can be had for a fraction of the price.

Students who have higher ranked schools as options will be able to attend tier 3 and 4 schools at a fraction of the price.

About 8-10% of students are on a full ride or more at Stetson. About half of those students have living stipends; last time I heard, it was up to $5,000 per year. Mercer is another low ranked school in the SE that gives $5,000 per year stipends. Applicants can be considered for these stipends if they have modest scores, like 158+ and 3.7+.


For a full scholarship plus stipend, I'd consider Stetson.

keg411
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby keg411 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:11 pm

OP, since you are from Missouri, what about UM-KC or Missou? I'm pretty sure both of those are cheaper than SLU and would be good considering your personal goals. I'm pretty sure those are both T3 schools and with in-state tuition for you, so they wouldn't be expensive either.

I wouldn't be running off to another market. You have a couple of 3rd tier schools in your area. Stick to those.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby GATORTIM » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:17 pm

rad law wrote:Stetson is bad....In summary, Stetson is not good.


rad law wrote:For a full scholarship plus stipend, I'd consider Stetson.


for posterity

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Grizz
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:21 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
rad law wrote:Stetson is bad....In summary, Stetson is not good.


rad law wrote:For a full scholarship plus stipend, I'd consider Stetson.


for posterity


Fine with me. If I were to graduate from Stetson with absolutely $0 debt, if I were to land a $20k a yr. job or make $20k as some solo, at least I could live with my folks and get free food (hopefully) and make enough money to live decently and cover expenses.

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Rikkugrrl
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Rikkugrrl » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:48 pm

Merr wrote:
Rikkugrrl wrote:If you don't mind Columbia, SC, retake the LSAT and try for U South Carolina. According to LSN, your chances aren't stellar right now, but 2 or 3 more points could push you in. They were bumped out of the top 100 this year and have somehow got a good portion of SC thinking that they're prestigious. Best law school in the state at least.

Edit: Just read the Stetson posts. Agreeing that Stetson is a terrible idea, but only because there are multiple schools in the state that are better. If you're trying for a T3 or T4, stay far, far away from states with multiple T1 or T2 law schools. Hence why I said USC. Your only "competition" is Charleston, and even lawyers in Charleston are wary of it (I lived in the city for several years and interned/did summer work at several firms).

EDIT 2: 100TH POST!!!!! :D


About that. I have been wondering if the South Carolina market is relatively sheltered or if UGA, Wake, UNC or even Emory grads are inclined move in to it as a potential alternative to North Carolina and/or Georgia?


Hm, I'm not sure if sheltered is the right word, but it's close. I won't lie; the legal market in SC isn't doing so hot, but that's pretty much the case all over right now (as I'm sure you know). I actually just spoke to a lawyer today about this and her answer was that it's still a 'good ole boys' network. She graduated from Vandy and didn't get any special attention over her USC competition. When I asked her if things work out with the LSAT (hopehopehope) and I get a choice between Emory or USC, she said "if you want to go anywhere else in the Southeast, Emory. If you want South Carolina, you'd be stupid not to take the cheaper tuition and networking opportunities. USC, without a doubt. I wish I'd gone there." She told me South Carolina's legal market (actually, this applies to outside markets as well) is becoming more open to other law schools and is slowly buying into the prestige game. But the good ole boys thing hasn't disappeared, not by a longshot.

It can't guarantee you a good job, or even a job by any means, but I can say it's probably one of your best shots at one for a T3 school (well, some still consider it T2, but I think anything that fell off the Top 100 is T3).

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trialjunky
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby trialjunky » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:28 am

Cleareyes wrote:I kind of want a "Stetson: The Jewel of them all" shirt.



I want one too, but TBF I actually really like Stetson. I might be biased bc I'm from Tpa but Stetson's staff really goes above and beyond, they're awesome. However, I wouldn't go to Stetson for anything less then a full ride. I've met a few large firms that hire from Stetson (Hill, Ward & Henderson), mostly their litigation department but that still doesnt leave a lot of spots open for the hundreds of people graduating.

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MartianManhunter
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby MartianManhunter » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:15 am

Cleareyes wrote:
Captain Jack wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
Captain Jack wrote:I wonder why Howard hasn't been mentioned yet.

It's probably because it's a predominantly black school. Despite that and the relatively low bar passage rates, Howard still puts an incredible amount of its students into BIGLAW while hosting OCIs with almost all the top firms from all over the country for diversity recruitment purposes. This is impressive considering the fact that it's considered a T3 and it's in Washington, DC.


Howard is a good plan if you are African American. If you aren't, however, it's not nearly as good a plan. You mention that the biglaw firms go there for 'diversity recruitment purposes.' They are specifically looking for minority candidates. While I don't know what Howard's placement for white students is like, I'd imagine it's worse than it is for black students for that reason.


Just because it's predominantly black, it doesn't mean it's any less good of a school. Similarly, just because a school is predominantly white, it doesn't make it any better of a school.


That's obvious. But Howard's placement way outstrips its rank and the reason for that is its ability to offer highly qualified minority candidates to firms looking to increase diversity among associates.


FWIW one of the summers at this V20 firm in DC is a white guy from Howard. If I were a white guy in the T3/T4 range that wanted to be in DC, I'd take a look if for no other reason than the access to the top firms that don't go to other similarly placed schools.

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najumobi
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby najumobi » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:20 am

SLU.....before ITE, 2008 grads, top 45% made 50k or more and 70% of the class had jobs at the time of graduation.

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Grizz
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:22 am

trialjunky wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:I kind of want a "Stetson: The Jewel of them all" shirt.



I want one too, but TBF I actually really like Stetson. I might be biased bc I'm from Tpa but Stetson's staff really goes above and beyond, they're awesome. However, I wouldn't go to Stetson for anything less then a full ride. I've met a few large firms that hire from Stetson (Hill, Ward & Henderson), mostly their litigation department but that still doesnt leave a lot of spots open for the hundreds of people graduating.


I was on Hill Ward's website the other day. It seems like from Stetson, you need to be magna or summa cum laude plus LR, period. Even in boom times. And I don't think they've hired anyone from Stetson for years; correct me if I'm wrong.

So yeah... not worth paying for.

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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby taxguy » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:24 am

trialjunky wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:I kind of want a "Stetson: The Jewel of them all" shirt.



I see lots of folks have problem with my calling Stetson a possible jewel of them all when comparing it to Miami and Florida. Have any of you read the college descriptions located
here on TLS. Let me quote from the TLS description of Stetson:
"Offering a tropical setting and some outstanding academic programs, the Stetson University School of Law is a diamond in the rough.... with an advocacy program ranked number one in the nation and a legal writing program ranked sixth." "It also has a solid bar passage rate."

See http://www.top-law-schools.com/stetson- ... y-law.html

To me diamond is a jewel.

I stand my my statement. I think Stetson is a much better place then its T3 ranking would make it appear.

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thecilent
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby thecilent » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:33 am

taxguy wrote:
trialjunky wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:I kind of want a "Stetson: The Jewel of them all" shirt.



I see lots of folks have problem with my calling Stetson a possible jewel of them all when comparing it to Miami and Florida. Have any of you read the college descriptions located
here on TLS. Let me quote from the TLS description of Stetson:
"Offering a tropical setting and some outstanding academic programs, the Stetson University School of Law is a diamond in the rough.... with an advocacy program ranked number one in the nation and a legal writing program ranked sixth." "It also has a solid bar passage rate."

See http://www.top-law-schools.com/stetson- ... y-law.html

To me diamond is a jewel.

I stand my my statement. I think Stetson is a much better place then its T3 ranking would make it appear.


using TLS against TLS. Clever, yo are

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GATORTIM
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby GATORTIM » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:50 am

taxguy wrote: I think Stetson is a much better place then its T3 ranking would make it appear.


I hope so...for my sake

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mpj_3050
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby mpj_3050 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:57 am

What about cheap state school where it is easy to get residency and there is a low cost of living? Also consider states where there are fewer law schools and less competition. Maybe you apply and get some money. Of course depends on what your situation is regarding where you want to be placed.

1Levening2013
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby 1Levening2013 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:59 am

if they were good, they wouldnt be T3 or T4

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GATORTIM
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby GATORTIM » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:14 pm

1Levening2013 wrote:if they were good, they wouldnt be T3 or T4


dumb comment

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ResolutePear
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:26 pm

--ImageRemoved--

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sintacs
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby sintacs » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:31 pm

taxguy wrote:
rad law wrote:
taxguy wrote:
rad law wrote:Stetson is bad. Specialty rankings don't translate to employment. Stetson is third in line after UF and FSU for the Tampa/St. Pete market. From Stetson, in this economy, big law is pretty much out. Period. Small firms and local govt. which used to hire Stetson grads are barely hiring. The county is low on funds. To cap it all off, Stetson is ridiculously expensive.

In summary, Stetson is not good.


Sorry but don't agree in part. Yes, you will have better job prospects with most T1 schools. In addition, both Florida, Florida State and even Miami have better connections. However, Stetson is a very good school and much better than most people realize and probably better than most schools in its tier.It also has a great reputation in the Tampa, St. Pete area. It will give you some great legal skills in a number of areas such as trial advocacy and elder law. If you do very well at Stetson, such as law review, placing in national competitions such as moot court competitions, you will have a chance at a number of law firms, although everyone will have a hard time getting jobs this year. In addition, if you don't want Biglaw, you will be as qualified as anyone.

I should also note that a famous law school professor recommended Stetson to my son because of its student-centric programs.
By the way, I am not some law student who is guessing about what is going on. I am a lawyer and have been in the field for many years.


Ah yes, Stetson, the "jewel of them all."

We have different definitions of "good" it seems. The education at Stetson may be "good," and its students may be "qualified," but it is sorely lacking in its ability to translate into employment in prestigious/high-paying/prestigious PI jobs for those outside the tippity top of the class (LR, moot court). For me, this indicates whether a school is "good."

Not a famous law professor, but many attorneys told me to stay the hell away from Stetson. I'd honestly take their opinion over that of famous law professors, as quite a few in academia (true legal academia, not adjunct professors) have never practiced a day in their lives.


Rad, you are always full of.....ad hominem arguments. I emphasized the benefit of attending a T-1 school. I emphasized the benefit of Florida and Florida State and even that of Miami. You never have been to Stetson. You never did check it out. You never met any of their faculty.You aren't even an attorney yet in practice. Thus, what is your problem?

I cannot locate the ad hominem arguments. WHat exactly were they? All I see in this response is Rad refuting your arguments.

1Levening2013
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby 1Levening2013 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:32 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
1Levening2013 wrote:if they were good, they wouldnt be T3 or T4


dumb comment


the truth hurts

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ResolutePear
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:44 pm

1Levening2013 wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:
1Levening2013 wrote:if they were good, they wouldnt be T3 or T4


dumb comment


the truth hurts


Not everybody that can attend higher ranked schools do. Some of these T3's and T4's cater to the working adult that's getting their tuition paid by their employer or they're getting a very competitive scholly that would allow somebody to grad very close to no debt.

Not everybody wants to grad with 200k debt - some people don't want to do Big Law, either.

1Levening2013
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby 1Levening2013 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:47 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
1Levening2013 wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:
1Levening2013 wrote:if they were good, they wouldnt be T3 or T4


dumb comment


the truth hurts


Not everybody that can attend higher ranked schools do. Some of these T3's and T4's cater to the working adult that's getting their tuition paid by their employer or they're getting a very competitive scholly that would allow somebody to grad very close to no debt.

Not everybody wants to grad with 200k debt - some people don't want to do Big Law, either.


you described my situation perfectly....working adult, graduate with very little debt, do not necessarily desire big law

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Cleareyes
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Cleareyes » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:02 am

taxguy wrote:
trialjunky wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:I kind of want a "Stetson: The Jewel of them all" shirt.



I see lots of folks have problem with my calling Stetson a possible jewel of them all when comparing it to Miami and Florida. Have any of you read the college descriptions located
here on TLS. Let me quote from the TLS description of Stetson:
"Offering a tropical setting and some outstanding academic programs, the Stetson University School of Law is a diamond in the rough.... with an advocacy program ranked number one in the nation and a legal writing program ranked sixth." "It also has a solid bar passage rate."

See http://www.top-law-schools.com/stetson- ... y-law.html

To me diamond is a jewel.

I stand my my statement. I think Stetson is a much better place then its T3 ranking would make it appear.


Diamond in the rough is a common phrase that indicates something specific. Jewel of them all is not only not a common phrase and weirdly grandiose, but also adds the claim that Stetson is heads and shoulders above other T3s-T4s and potentially, depending upon interpretation, better than a school like Fordham or even than a school like Yale. The Jewel of them all! It's not the same, dude. There can be many diamonds in the rough, but there can only be one jewel of them all.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:38 am

1Levening2013 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Not everybody that can attend higher ranked schools do. Some of these T3's and T4's cater to the working adult that's getting their tuition paid by their employer or they're getting a very competitive scholly that would allow somebody to grad very close to no debt.

Not everybody wants to grad with 200k debt - some people don't want to do Big Law, either.


you described my situation perfectly....working adult, graduate with very little debt, do not necessarily desire big law


^
your employer is paying??

taxguy
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby taxguy » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:07 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
taxguy wrote:
trialjunky wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:I kind of want a "Stetson: The Jewel of them all" shirt.



I see lots of folks have problem with my calling Stetson a possible jewel of them all when comparing it to Miami and Florida. Have any of you read the college descriptions located
here on TLS. Let me quote from the TLS description of Stetson:
"Offering a tropical setting and some outstanding academic programs, the Stetson University School of Law is a diamond in the rough.... with an advocacy program ranked number one in the nation and a legal writing program ranked sixth." "It also has a solid bar passage rate."

See http://www.top-law-schools.com/stetson- ... y-law.html

To me diamond is a jewel.

I stand my my statement. I think Stetson is a much better place then its T3 ranking would make it appear.


Diamond in the rough is a common phrase that indicates something specific. Jewel of them all is not only not a common phrase and weirdly grandiose, but also adds the claim that Stetson is heads and shoulders above other T3s-T4s and potentially, depending upon interpretation, better than a school like Fordham or even than a school like Yale. The Jewel of them all! It's not the same, dude. There can be many diamonds in the rough, but there can only be one jewel of them all.



Again, you are misquoting me and taking it out of context. When I mentioned Stetson as a possible jewel of them all, I was discussing places like Miami. Yale, Forham and other schools weren't part of the discussion. Nice try!

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Grizz
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:09 pm

taxguy wrote:Again, you are misquoting me and taking it out of context. When I mentioned Stetson as a possible jewel of them all, I was discussing places like Miami. Yale, Forham and other schools weren't part of the discussion. Nice try!


Notwithstanding, even describing Stetson as the jewel of UF, FSU, and Miami is a bit much.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Cleareyes » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:23 pm

rad law wrote:
taxguy wrote:Again, you are misquoting me and taking it out of context. When I mentioned Stetson as a possible jewel of them all, I was discussing places like Miami. Yale, Forham and other schools weren't part of the discussion. Nice try!


Notwithstanding, even describing Stetson as the jewel of UF, FSU, and Miami is a bit much.


Once again you are misquoting. You see he was comparing Florida schools to singer songwriters popular in the 90s. Stetson is the Jewel of them all, FSU is the Meredith Brooks. UF is Alanis, and, of course, Miami is Gloria Estefan!




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