Any good T3 or T4 schools?

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flhealth
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby flhealth » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:24 am

I'm biased...if you want to work in South Florida, are a Florida resident, and have any type of work ethic, FIU at 12K per year is NOT a waste of money

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Grizz
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:09 am

twert wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:A lot of these schools are OK for people who want to keep costs low and get into public sector law (in-state at places like Arkansas, Maine, Texas Tech). Paying full private-school tuition for a T3/4 is pretty much never advisable.

paying full private school tuition outside of t14 is never advisable


You would pay sticker at Georgetown but not Vanderbilt? That seems pretty asinine.

edited for clarity
Last edited by Grizz on Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Fast_Fingers
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Fast_Fingers » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:19 am

If you can get a decent scholarship, and understand that law schools' influence becomes quite regional outside of T14, there isn't anything wrong with going to Texas Tech or South Texas, assuming you are fine staying in Texas. Knowing some 1Ls and graduates that go there, it's really not too bad, as long as you're willing to do well and handle the harsh curve, not to mention a possible lack of preparation for the bar (though Tech was an exception in 2008). However, if you have the patience to retake the LSAT, I suggest doing so, to increase the chances of getting scholarships and admittance to a higher quality school.

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ggocat
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby ggocat » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:41 am

Fast_Fingers wrote:not to mention a possible lack of preparation for the bar

I think most people would disagree with this. Some T3 and T4 schools have low bar passage numbers, but that's probably because of the quality of the students (in LSAT terms), not the quality of the instruction. LSAT correlates with bar passage.

taxguy
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby taxguy » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:04 am

rad law wrote:
WayneRooney wrote:Are there any good T3 or T4 schools out there? Like some nice niche that those schools do well in? I know that Stetson in FL is ranked high nationaly in trial advocacy and legal writing for example.


Stetson is bad. Specialty rankings don't translate to employment. Stetson is third in line after UF and FSU for the Tampa/St. Pete market. From Stetson, in this economy, big law is pretty much out. Period. Small firms and local govt. which used to hire Stetson grads are barely hiring. The county is low on funds. To cap it all off, Stetson is ridiculously expensive.

In summary, Stetson is not good.


Sorry but don't agree in part. Yes, you will have better job prospects with most T1 schools. In addition, both Florida, Florida State and even Miami have better connections. However, Stetson is a very good school and much better than most people realize and probably better than most schools in its tier.It also has a great reputation in the Tampa, St. Pete area. It will give you some great legal skills in a number of areas such as trial advocacy and elder law. If you do very well at Stetson, such as law review, placing in national competitions such as moot court competitions, you will have a chance at a number of law firms, although everyone will have a hard time getting jobs this year. In addition, if you don't want Biglaw, you will be as qualified as anyone.

I should also note that a famous law school professor recommended Stetson to my son because of its student-centric programs.
By the way, I am not some law student who is guessing about what is going on. I am a lawyer and have been in the field for many years.

Finally, I live in Maryland. Although University of Baltimore does place kids in government and local firms, I really get a diploma mill feel from them. Don't go strictly by reputation or by what is said here. Check out the schools.
Last edited by taxguy on Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:18 am

taxguy wrote:
rad law wrote:Stetson is bad. Specialty rankings don't translate to employment. Stetson is third in line after UF and FSU for the Tampa/St. Pete market. From Stetson, in this economy, big law is pretty much out. Period. Small firms and local govt. which used to hire Stetson grads are barely hiring. The county is low on funds. To cap it all off, Stetson is ridiculously expensive.

In summary, Stetson is not good.


Sorry but don't agree in part. Yes, you will have better job prospects with most T1 schools. In addition, both Florida, Florida State and even Miami have better connections. However, Stetson is a very good school and much better than most people realize and probably better than most schools in its tier.It also has a great reputation in the Tampa, St. Pete area. It will give you some great legal skills in a number of areas such as trial advocacy and elder law. If you do very well at Stetson, such as law review, placing in national competitions such as moot court competitions, you will have a chance at a number of law firms, although everyone will have a hard time getting jobs this year. In addition, if you don't want Biglaw, you will be as qualified as anyone.

I should also note that a famous law school professor recommended Stetson to my son because of its student-centric programs.
By the way, I am not some law student who is guessing about what is going on. I am a lawyer and have been in the field for many years.


Ah yes, Stetson, the "jewel of them all."

We have different definitions of "good" it seems. The education at Stetson may be "good," and its students may be "qualified," but it is sorely lacking in its ability to translate into employment in prestigious/high-paying/prestigious PI jobs for those outside the tippity top of the class (LR, moot court). For me, this indicates whether a school is "good."

Not a famous law professor, but many attorneys told me to stay the hell away from Stetson. I'd honestly take their opinion over that of famous law professors, as quite a few in academia (true legal academia, not adjunct professors) have never practiced a day in their lives.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby GATORTIM » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:33 am

rad law wrote:Not a famous law professor, but many attorneys told me to stay the hell away from Stetson. I'd honestly take their opinion over that of famous law professors, as quite a few in academia (true legal academia, not adjunct professors) have never practiced a day in their lives.


I'm assuming they told you this after you expressed your goals. If your goal is to practice outside of Florida and/or BigLaw then yeah, they probably did say that. However, if you have ties to central florida and desire to practice law in the region then Stetson is a viable option. Furthermore, you presume to know the experience of the "famous law professor" and attempt to discredit his/her advice by tossing out generalizations that may not even apply to this person.

Taxguy also mentioned in his post that he has been practicing for several years.

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twert
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby twert » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:41 am

rad law wrote:
twert wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:A lot of these schools are OK for people who want to keep costs low and get into public sector law (in-state at places like Arkansas, Maine, Texas Tech). Paying full private-school tuition for a T3/4 is pretty much never advisable.

paying full private school tuition outside of t14 is never advisable


You would pay sticker at Georgetown but not Vanderbilt? That seems pretty asinine.

edited for clarity

its not about whether i would pay sticker. its about whether sticker is ever advisable. my point wasn't really that there is a significant line between the t14 and vandy. it was just easier to say it that way. my point was that the vast majority of private schools aren't worth sticker, not just t3/t4 privates.

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Grizz
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:55 am

GATORTIM wrote:
rad law wrote:Not a famous law professor, but many attorneys told me to stay the hell away from Stetson. I'd honestly take their opinion over that of famous law professors, as quite a few in academia (true legal academia, not adjunct professors) have never practiced a day in their lives.


I'm assuming they told you this after you expressed your goals. If your goal is to practice outside of Florida and/or BigLaw then yeah, they probably did say that. However, if you have ties to central florida and desire to practice law in the region then Stetson is a viable option. Furthermore, you presume to know the experience of the "famous law professor" and attempt to discredit his/her advice by tossing out generalizations that may not even apply to this person.

Taxguy also mentioned in his post that he has been practicing for several years.


GATORTIM! Knew I would have to spar with you yet again about this ITT. So here goes:

Assumption false. They told me to avoid it in general. Especially considering the fact that more prestigious schools can be had for a fraction of the price.

I was speaking as to taking the advice of famous law professors in general. Not specifically the one tax guy was referring to. RC fail.

So taxguy has worked for a few years. Cool. I'm not an attorney, but I'm trying my best to convey what family/employers/friends in many areas of law (big firm, fed. govt, small firm, local govt.) have conveyed to me: don't go to Stetson at anything close to sicker; it was tough pre-ITE and it's insane now.

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hiromoto45
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby hiromoto45 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:16 pm

I'm having a hard time deciding between Nova and Barry. Help please?

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Grizz
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:27 pm

hiromoto45 wrote:I'm having a hard time deciding between Nova and Barry. Help please?


Nova. 25 offerings (5 firms) vs. 4 offerings (1 firm) for OCI. As per NALP directory. Duh.

Or use Nova to leverage a scholarship from FL Coastal.

AJRESQ
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby AJRESQ » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:25 pm

Widener isn't a bad option if you want to practice in Delaware or Pennsylvania... particularly Delaware. At least it wasn't 5 years ago. Not sure about now, but our last two hires have been from Widener. Three if you count the fact I transferred from there.
Last edited by AJRESQ on Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Jack Smirks » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:27 pm

I heard John Marshall is awesome.

taxguy
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby taxguy » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:35 pm

rad law wrote:
taxguy wrote:
rad law wrote:Stetson is bad. Specialty rankings don't translate to employment. Stetson is third in line after UF and FSU for the Tampa/St. Pete market. From Stetson, in this economy, big law is pretty much out. Period. Small firms and local govt. which used to hire Stetson grads are barely hiring. The county is low on funds. To cap it all off, Stetson is ridiculously expensive.

In summary, Stetson is not good.


Sorry but don't agree in part. Yes, you will have better job prospects with most T1 schools. In addition, both Florida, Florida State and even Miami have better connections. However, Stetson is a very good school and much better than most people realize and probably better than most schools in its tier.It also has a great reputation in the Tampa, St. Pete area. It will give you some great legal skills in a number of areas such as trial advocacy and elder law. If you do very well at Stetson, such as law review, placing in national competitions such as moot court competitions, you will have a chance at a number of law firms, although everyone will have a hard time getting jobs this year. In addition, if you don't want Biglaw, you will be as qualified as anyone.

I should also note that a famous law school professor recommended Stetson to my son because of its student-centric programs.
By the way, I am not some law student who is guessing about what is going on. I am a lawyer and have been in the field for many years.


Ah yes, Stetson, the "jewel of them all."

We have different definitions of "good" it seems. The education at Stetson may be "good," and its students may be "qualified," but it is sorely lacking in its ability to translate into employment in prestigious/high-paying/prestigious PI jobs for those outside the tippity top of the class (LR, moot court). For me, this indicates whether a school is "good."

Not a famous law professor, but many attorneys told me to stay the hell away from Stetson. I'd honestly take their opinion over that of famous law professors, as quite a few in academia (true legal academia, not adjunct professors) have never practiced a day in their lives.


Rad, you are always full of.....ad hominem arguments. I emphasized the benefit of attending a T-1 school. I emphasized the benefit of Florida and Florida State and even that of Miami. You never have been to Stetson. You never did check it out. You never met any of their faculty.You aren't even an attorney yet in practice. Thus, what is your problem?
Last edited by taxguy on Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

harborleaguemvp
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby harborleaguemvp » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:51 pm

Thomas Jefferson in San Diego is amazing. Tremendous faculty, supportive staff. All the pieces are there for a law student to excel. They are opening a new building in downtown San Diego next winter which should put them on the map. Employment prospects come down to networking and getting the opportunity. Highly recommend TJ for a T4.

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Grizz
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:03 pm

taxguy wrote:
rad law wrote:
taxguy wrote:
rad law wrote:Stetson is bad. Specialty rankings don't translate to employment. Stetson is third in line after UF and FSU for the Tampa/St. Pete market. From Stetson, in this economy, big law is pretty much out. Period. Small firms and local govt. which used to hire Stetson grads are barely hiring. The county is low on funds. To cap it all off, Stetson is ridiculously expensive.

In summary, Stetson is not good.


Sorry but don't agree in part. Yes, you will have better job prospects with most T1 schools. In addition, both Florida, Florida State and even Miami have better connections. However, Stetson is a very good school and much better than most people realize and probably better than most schools in its tier.It also has a great reputation in the Tampa, St. Pete area. It will give you some great legal skills in a number of areas such as trial advocacy and elder law. If you do very well at Stetson, such as law review, placing in national competitions such as moot court competitions, you will have a chance at a number of law firms, although everyone will have a hard time getting jobs this year. In addition, if you don't want Biglaw, you will be as qualified as anyone.

I should also note that a famous law school professor recommended Stetson to my son because of its student-centric programs.
By the way, I am not some law student who is guessing about what is going on. I am a lawyer and have been in the field for many years.


Ah yes, Stetson, the "jewel of them all."

We have different definitions of "good" it seems. The education at Stetson may be "good," and its students may be "qualified," but it is sorely lacking in its ability to translate into employment in prestigious/high-paying/prestigious PI jobs for those outside the tippity top of the class (LR, moot court). For me, this indicates whether a school is "good."

Not a famous law professor, but many attorneys told me to stay the hell away from Stetson. I'd honestly take their opinion over that of famous law professors, as quite a few in academia (true legal academia, not adjunct professors) have never practiced a day in their lives.


Rad, you are always full of.....ad hominem arguments. I emphasized the benefit of attending a T-1 school. I emphasized the benefit of Florida and Florida State and even that of Miami. You never have been to Stetson. You never did check it out. You aren't even an attorney yet in practice. Thus, what is your problem?


None of that was ad hominem, considering you did once refer to Stetson as the "jewel of them all."

I don't need to visit Yale to know that it is good. By the same token, I do not need to visit Stetson to caution people against going.

I have a problem with the criteria which you use to determine whether a school is "good," as outlined above.

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twert
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby twert » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:18 pm

harborleaguemvp wrote:Thomas Jefferson in San Diego is amazing. Tremendous faculty, supportive staff. All the pieces are there for a law student to excel. They are opening a new building in downtown San Diego next winter which should put them on the map. Employment prospects come down to networking and getting the opportunity. Highly recommend TJ for a T4.

it might have a lot going for it, but its still the dog of its market. some say cal western is a pretty good t3, but TJ is many years away from a similar reputation.

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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby ggocat » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:31 pm

rad law wrote:Especially considering the fact that more prestigious schools can be had for a fraction of the price.

Students who have higher ranked schools as options will be able to attend tier 3 and 4 schools at a fraction of the price.

About 8-10% of students are on a full ride or more at Stetson. About half of those students have living stipends; last time I heard, it was up to $5,000 per year. Mercer is another low ranked school in the SE that gives $5,000 per year stipends. Applicants can be considered for these stipends if they have modest scores, like 158+ and 3.7+.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Cleareyes » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:37 pm

I kind of want a "Stetson: The Jewel of them all" shirt.

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Rikkugrrl
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Rikkugrrl » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:45 pm

If you don't mind Columbia, SC, retake the LSAT and try for U South Carolina. According to LSN, your chances aren't stellar right now, but 2 or 3 more points could push you in. They were bumped out of the top 100 this year and have somehow got a good portion of SC thinking that they're prestigious. Best law school in the state at least.

Edit: Just read the Stetson posts. Agreeing that Stetson is a terrible idea, but only because there are multiple schools in the state that are better. If you're trying for a T3 or T4, stay far, far away from states with multiple T1 or T2 law schools. Hence why I said USC. Your only "competition" is Charleston, and even lawyers in Charleston are wary of it (I lived in the city for several years and interned/did summer work at several firms).

EDIT 2: 100TH POST!!!!! :D
Last edited by Rikkugrrl on Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Captain Jack
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Captain Jack » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:49 pm

I wonder why Howard hasn't been mentioned yet.

It's probably because it's a predominantly black school. Despite that and the relatively low bar passage rates, Howard still puts an incredible amount of its students into BIGLAW while hosting OCIs with almost all the top firms from all over the country for diversity recruitment purposes. This is impressive considering the fact that it's considered a T3 and it's in Washington, DC.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Cleareyes » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:52 pm

Captain Jack wrote:I wonder why Howard hasn't been mentioned yet.

It's probably because it's a predominantly black school. Despite that and the relatively low bar passage rates, Howard still puts an incredible amount of its students into BIGLAW while hosting OCIs with almost all the top firms from all over the country for diversity recruitment purposes. This is impressive considering the fact that it's considered a T3 and it's in Washington, DC.


Howard is a good plan if you are African American. If you aren't, however, it's not nearly as good a plan. You mention that the biglaw firms go there for 'diversity recruitment purposes.' They are specifically looking for minority candidates. While I don't know what Howard's placement for white students is like, I'd imagine it's worse than it is for black students for that reason.

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Captain Jack
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Captain Jack » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Captain Jack wrote:I wonder why Howard hasn't been mentioned yet.

It's probably because it's a predominantly black school. Despite that and the relatively low bar passage rates, Howard still puts an incredible amount of its students into BIGLAW while hosting OCIs with almost all the top firms from all over the country for diversity recruitment purposes. This is impressive considering the fact that it's considered a T3 and it's in Washington, DC.


Howard is a good plan if you are African American. If you aren't, however, it's not nearly as good a plan. You mention that the biglaw firms go there for 'diversity recruitment purposes.' They are specifically looking for minority candidates. While I don't know what Howard's placement for white students is like, I'd imagine it's worse than it is for black students for that reason.


Just because it's predominantly black, it doesn't mean it's any less good of a school. Similarly, just because a school is predominantly white, it doesn't make it any better of a school.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Cleareyes » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:13 pm

Captain Jack wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
Captain Jack wrote:I wonder why Howard hasn't been mentioned yet.

It's probably because it's a predominantly black school. Despite that and the relatively low bar passage rates, Howard still puts an incredible amount of its students into BIGLAW while hosting OCIs with almost all the top firms from all over the country for diversity recruitment purposes. This is impressive considering the fact that it's considered a T3 and it's in Washington, DC.


Howard is a good plan if you are African American. If you aren't, however, it's not nearly as good a plan. You mention that the biglaw firms go there for 'diversity recruitment purposes.' They are specifically looking for minority candidates. While I don't know what Howard's placement for white students is like, I'd imagine it's worse than it is for black students for that reason.


Just because it's predominantly black, it doesn't mean it's any less good of a school. Similarly, just because a school is predominantly white, it doesn't make it any better of a school.


That's obvious. But Howard's placement way outstrips its rank and the reason for that is its ability to offer highly qualified minority candidates to firms looking to increase diversity among associates.

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Merr
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Re: Any good T3 or T4 schools?

Postby Merr » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:29 pm

Rikkugrrl wrote:If you don't mind Columbia, SC, retake the LSAT and try for U South Carolina. According to LSN, your chances aren't stellar right now, but 2 or 3 more points could push you in. They were bumped out of the top 100 this year and have somehow got a good portion of SC thinking that they're prestigious. Best law school in the state at least.

Edit: Just read the Stetson posts. Agreeing that Stetson is a terrible idea, but only because there are multiple schools in the state that are better. If you're trying for a T3 or T4, stay far, far away from states with multiple T1 or T2 law schools. Hence why I said USC. Your only "competition" is Charleston, and even lawyers in Charleston are wary of it (I lived in the city for several years and interned/did summer work at several firms).

EDIT 2: 100TH POST!!!!! :D


About that. I have been wondering if the South Carolina market is relatively sheltered or if UGA, Wake, UNC or even Emory grads are inclined move in to it as a potential alternative to North Carolina and/or Georgia?




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