Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby Mr. Matlock » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:If you can't get into a good law school, you are probably pretty stupid.

You mean like a T6 or better?

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby Mr. Matlock » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:14 pm

truffleshuffle wrote:What if there was a televised event for receiving offers from firms and John Gruden could be there and go "THIS GUY...................can litigate!" Also, some kid who graduated #1 from Cooley can be the subject of debate between Mel Kiper and Todd McShay.

Fucking 180! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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futurelawyer413
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby futurelawyer413 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:21 pm

dont wana plug my old thread lol, but there was quite an interesting point made by PDaddy, and similar to some of what was discussed in the first post of this current thread


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=115523

OG Loc
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby OG Loc » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:48 pm

Being an undrafted free agent is a better analogy to going to a TTT than being a late round pick. A select few UFA's in special situations will end up making a 52 man roster (biglaw) but most will end up being among the 1,000 or so players cut after training camps each year and forced to flip burgers/drive UPS trucks(/attend Cooley?). Going to GULC would be a closer analogy to being a late rounder. The key difference is preseason camp is 1 month and free, while your TTT is 3 years and 150k.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:46 pm

PDaddy doesn't make "interesting" points, he makes lulzworthy points.

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adamquigley9
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby adamquigley9 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:52 pm

truffleshuffle wrote:What type of stock adjectives are used to describe the students? Are the top kids from 2nd tier schools defined as "gritty" and "hardworking"? Is the kid from Harvard that graduated just outside the top-25% get picked because of "potential"?

What if there was a televised event for receiving offers from firms and John Gruden could be there and go "THIS GUY...................can litigate!" Also, some kid who graduated #1 from Cooley can be the subject of debate between Mel Kiper and Todd McShay.


+181
Giggity.

krj02004
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby krj02004 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:11 pm

CG614 wrote:
AJRESQ wrote:
CG614 wrote:How many threads are you going to make where you claim it doesn't matter where you go to law school? Get over it.


I am glad you posted this. It's an example of how some people lack the ability to understand a complex concept. Those are the people who do poorly in law, when you try and break down a complex thought into something black and white.

I have never said "it doesn't matter where you go to law school." What I have said is that where you go to law school is one of many factors in your legal career; certainly not the defining one. The analogy is football -- a good law school (like an NFL player coming from a big football school) is helpful in the beginning, and will get you noticed right off the bat in BIGLAW (like a stud from Florida or Georgia), but it won't guarantee you a good career (like Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell). It certainly can help, though... like it did with Payton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, etc. While it's more difficult to "make the team" from a T4, there are a lot of T4 "journeymen" in the practie of law as well as random T4 studs who end up like Trent Cole. And then, of course, a lot of guys don't want to play in the NFL and are perfectly happy being in the CFL or coaching a high school team. And they don't end up with as many concussions. However, a few years out, like in the NFL, where you went to school isn't nearly as important as performance and ability to produce.

If that concept is too difficult to grasp, avoid law. Law is far more complex.

No, it is more aptly and example of chicken little. You cry about how the law school doesn't matter so much, that nobody cares to actually read your post. And, don't fool yourself, the underlying message in your post is that the name of the law school is not that important.



You seriously lack any type of critical thinking skills. Can you read?

AJRESQ
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby AJRESQ » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:29 pm

OG Loc wrote:Being an undrafted free agent is a better analogy to going to a TTT than being a late round pick. A select few UFA's in special situations will end up making a 52 man roster (biglaw) but most will end up being among the 1,000 or so players cut after training camps each year and forced to flip burgers/drive UPS trucks(/attend Cooley?). Going to GULC would be a closer analogy to being a late rounder. The key difference is preseason camp is 1 month and free, while your TTT is 3 years and 150k.


Eh... depends on the market. Just like the NFL.

For example, if you're an UDFA wide receiver on a team that is thin at WR, you have a shot of making the team. Think Hank Baskett on the Philadelphia Eagles. Dude would have never made it on a team like the Cardinals or the Colts. That is how Trent Cole not only made the Eagles but became a superstar -- he was selected by a team thin at DE and had a chance. Trent Cole would have never seen the field on a team like the Giants.

Comparatively, if you're from a TTT or TTTT in a state that isn't oversaturated with law schools, you'll probably be okay -- at the very least you should get a chance to "get on the field". Think Widener in Delaware or something. However, if you're in DC or NYC... don't do that. Once you get a chance to get on the playing field, what you do with it from there is up to you.

Supply and demand. It applies in the NFL and it applies in law.

AJRESQ
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby AJRESQ » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:40 pm

KibblesAndVick wrote:
AJRESQ wrote:
CG614 wrote:How many threads are you going to make where you claim it doesn't matter where you go to law school? Get over it.


I am glad you posted this. It's an example of how some people lack the ability to understand a complex concept. Those are the people who do poorly in law, when you try and break down a complex thought into something black and white.

I have never said "it doesn't matter where you go to law school." What I have said is that where you go to law school is one of many factors in your legal career; certainly not the defining one. The analogy is football -- a good law school (like an NFL player coming from a big football school) is helpful in the beginning, and will get you noticed right off the bat in BIGLAW (like a stud from Florida or Georgia), but it won't guarantee you a good career (like Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell). It certainly can help, though... like it did with Payton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, etc. While it's more difficult to "make the team" from a T4, there are a lot of T4 "journeymen" in the practie of law as well as random T4 studs who end up like Trent Cole. And then, of course, a lot of guys don't want to play in the NFL and are perfectly happy being in the CFL or coaching a high school team. And they don't end up with as many concussions. However, a few years out, like in the NFL, where you went to school isn't nearly as important as performance and ability to produce.

If that concept is too difficult to grasp, avoid law. Law is far more complex.


So your point is that even if you don't go to a top flight law school it is still possible to have a successful career in law? Earth shattering...

What you're failing to notice, both in football and in law, is the percentage of players/students who make it. At a top flight school a much much larger percentage of players achieve success at the next level. There are players/students who do great things coming out of less renowned schools but there are so few of them. You have to be at the very top of your class. If you play D-II football and end up in the NFL the odds are that you're the only player from your team who did that. If you go to a T3 law school and end up at a V25 firm you're probably the only (or one of only a handful) that did so.

Your argument seems to rest on the point that "other factors" such as hard work are just as, if not more, important than where you went to school. What you've failed to establish is any logical reason why students at the lower schools are harder workers. Granted there will be some, but if you take 10 HYS students and 10 directional state students I think it's a safe bet that the HYS students are smarter and harder working. This doesn't preclude the lower ranked student from achieving success but statistically the odds are terrible...


This is another post where you have missed the boat. The "other factors" I've articulated are MARKET. If you want to practice in an area where there are not a great deal of law schools, you will probably be able to find a job regardless of where you go.

However, if you go to a T4 and think you are going to find work in DC, NYC, or LA, guess again.

This might shock you, but regional firms prefer regional applicants over HYS. Who goes to HYS to practice in the middle of Pennsylvania? Or Lancaster? Who goes to HYS to make $65k a year in the middle of Pennsylvania?

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capitalacq
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby capitalacq » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:48 pm

i cant believe this is still alive

drbulldog
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby drbulldog » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:05 pm

AJRESQ wrote:...That's my two cents. Going to a great law school can help, but it's just one of factors that will determine your career.


AJRESQ, would it be fair to say that your basic point is that since 80%+ of people are not going to get biglaw/prestigious PI or government jobs, networking and trying to find a specific practice area are what matters most? This is what I got out of my conversations with practicing attorneys. One solo who works in personal injury, for example, emphasized that to break into his field, I should try and take specific classes, clerk with PI lawyers in the summer/during school, watch trials at court to see what makes a good litigator, try and gain experience at an insurance defense firm for a few years after law school (low paying) and then go into PI with a small shop, having developed some skills and contacts. He then probably talked for about 15-20 minutes about the importance of how to run and grow a law practice as a business and how to attract and retain clients-which seems to be what will be most important for almost all young lawyers.

AJRESQ
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby AJRESQ » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:46 pm

drbulldog wrote:
AJRESQ wrote:...That's my two cents. Going to a great law school can help, but it's just one of factors that will determine your career.


AJRESQ, would it be fair to say that your basic point is that since 80%+ of people are not going to get biglaw/prestigious PI or government jobs, networking and trying to find a specific practice area are what matters most? This is what I got out of my conversations with practicing attorneys. One solo who works in personal injury, for example, emphasized that to break into his field, I should try and take specific classes, clerk with PI lawyers in the summer/during school, watch trials at court to see what makes a good litigator, try and gain experience at an insurance defense firm for a few years after law school (low paying) and then go into PI with a small shop, having developed some skills and contacts. He then probably talked for about 15-20 minutes about the importance of how to run and grow a law practice as a business and how to attract and retain clients-which seems to be what will be most important for almost all young lawyers.


In a nutshell, yes.

In terms of a law school, if you're not going to a T10, I would personally pick a school based on where you want to practice and the market. (i.e. avoid Brooklyn, Seton Hall, etc. because there are no jobs in New York City. I don't care where these schools are ranked, I would go to Widener before I went to Seton Hall or Brooklyn). Scholarship helps. I would attend a T3 over a T2 if the T3 was in a better area and/or I received more money. Again, I transferred from a T4 to a T2 and saw no noticeable difference. I'm at a slight disadvantage because I missed out on a lot of relationships by transferring -- I grew apart from my 1L class and didn't become as close with people at the T2, because 1L forms some great friendships.

Outside the T10, where you go to law school is more indicative of where you want to practice than anything else. T14 credentials are important in BIGLAW but not everywhere else. Smaller firms don't say "We are only hiring from the T2 this year!" Most small firms don't keep up with the rankings. I have no idea what schools are ranked where outside the ones in my local area, and all I know is that we have a T1 (Penn), a bunch of T2s (Rutgers, Temple, Villanova, Dickinson, etc.) and a T4 (Widener) and it makes no difference in terms of our hiring if you come from Penn or Widener. Again, our last two hires were from Widener, although we had applicants from the "better" schools.

From there, all of that is good advice. Running a business, attracting, and retaining clients, in my opinion, is the most important aspect. The law part is fairly easy to figure out once you learn basic malpractice avoidance. Expect to make $40k - $50k coming out unless you somehow otherwise add value to a law firm beyond that. Hard to do your first year of practice, though. That number goes up once you have clients and add value to a law firm. Profit profit profit. A fancy degree does not create profit -- it can help create profit by putting you in touch with the right people, but a degree in and of itself does not create profit.

Anyway, everyone on this board knows better than I do, I guess. That's my opinion based on having attended a T4, transferring to a T2, starting in BIGLAW, and then going boutique as a practicing attorney who has input in our firm's hiring decisions. Your mileage may vary. It might be different outside my jurisdiction or maybe other firms do things differently than we do.

Here is a thought -- I think a lot of you would be better off posing these questions to a listserve like solosez. Asking law students / 0Ls about the practice of law isn't a great way to get advice IMO. You're all bright kids, but it's hard to put all this stuff in perspective. There is a lot of BAD advice out there, and a lot of it is written by people who are "professional careerists" -- not practicing attorneys. Like the woman who wrote that book Guerrilla Tactics for getting a job. She seems like a great lady, but how can she give good advice to 0Ls if she's never worked in a law firm or made hiring decisions.
Last edited by AJRESQ on Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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capitalacq
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby capitalacq » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:46 pm

AJRESQ wrote:
drbulldog wrote:
AJRESQ wrote:...That's my two cents. Going to a great law school can help, but it's just one of factors that will determine your career.


AJRESQ, would it be fair to say that your basic point is that since 80%+ of people are not going to get biglaw/prestigious PI or government jobs, networking and trying to find a specific practice area are what matters most? This is what I got out of my conversations with practicing attorneys. One solo who works in personal injury, for example, emphasized that to break into his field, I should try and take specific classes, clerk with PI lawyers in the summer/during school, watch trials at court to see what makes a good litigator, try and gain experience at an insurance defense firm for a few years after law school (low paying) and then go into PI with a small shop, having developed some skills and contacts. He then probably talked for about 15-20 minutes about the importance of how to run and grow a law practice as a business and how to attract and retain clients-which seems to be what will be most important for almost all young lawyers.


In a nutshell, yes.

In terms of a law school, if you're not going to a T10, pick a school based on where you want to practice and the market. (i.e. avoid Brooklyn, Seton Hall, etc. because there are no jobs in New York City. I don't care where these schools are ranked, I would go to Widener before I went to Seton Hall or Brooklyn). Scholarship helps. I would attend a T3 over a T2 if the T3 was in a better area and/or I received more money. Again, I transferred from a T4 to a T2 and saw no noticeable difference. I'm at a slight disadvantage because I missed out on a lot of relationships by transferring -- I grew apart from my 1L class and didn't become as close with people at the T2, because 1L forms some great friendships.

Outside the T10, where you go to law school is more indicative of where you want to practice than anything else. T14 credentials are important in BIGLAW but not everywhere else. Smaller firms don't say "We are only hiring from the T2 this year!" Most small firms don't keep up with the rankings. I have no idea what schools are ranked where outside the ones in my local area, and all I know is that we have a T1 (Penn), a bunch of T2s (Rutgers, Temple, Villanova, Dickinson, etc.) and a T4 (Widener) and it makes no difference in terms of our hiring if you come from Penn or Widener. Again, our last two hires were from Widener, although we had applicants from the "better" schools.

From there, all of that is good advice. Running a business, attracting, and retaining clients, in my opinion, is the most important aspect. The law part is fairly easy to figure out. Expect to make $40k - $50k coming out unless you somehow otherwise add value to a law firm beyond that. Hard to do your first year of practice, though.

Anyway, everyone on this board knows better than I do, I guess.

Here is a thought -- I think a lot of you would be better off posing these questions to a listserve like solosez.

at least there was something truthful

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CG614
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby CG614 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:36 am

krj02004 wrote:
CG614 wrote:
AJRESQ wrote:
CG614 wrote:How many threads are you going to make where you claim it doesn't matter where you go to law school? Get over it.


I am glad you posted this. It's an example of how some people lack the ability to understand a complex concept. Those are the people who do poorly in law, when you try and break down a complex thought into something black and white.

I have never said "it doesn't matter where you go to law school." What I have said is that where you go to law school is one of many factors in your legal career; certainly not the defining one. The analogy is football -- a good law school (like an NFL player coming from a big football school) is helpful in the beginning, and will get you noticed right off the bat in BIGLAW (like a stud from Florida or Georgia), but it won't guarantee you a good career (like Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell). It certainly can help, though... like it did with Payton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, etc. While it's more difficult to "make the team" from a T4, there are a lot of T4 "journeymen" in the practie of law as well as random T4 studs who end up like Trent Cole. And then, of course, a lot of guys don't want to play in the NFL and are perfectly happy being in the CFL or coaching a high school team. And they don't end up with as many concussions. However, a few years out, like in the NFL, where you went to school isn't nearly as important as performance and ability to produce.

If that concept is too difficult to grasp, avoid law. Law is far more complex.

No, it is more aptly and example of chicken little. You cry about how the law school doesn't matter so much, that nobody cares to actually read your post. And, don't fool yourself, the underlying message in your post is that the name of the law school is not that important.



You seriously lack any type of critical thinking skills. Can you read?


Are you serious? Do you think this is a good analogy? How do I lack critical thinking skills, when I can easily read through the OPs obvious attempt to claim that it doesn't matter where you go to law school. I'd say that is the definition of critical reading. Why don't you continue to just take what people write for fact, that's a better approach. Obviously. Enjoy Iowa City, tons of corn fields to play in.




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