Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

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AJRESQ
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Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby AJRESQ » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:48 am

I've always wanted to write this article, so here goes...

Where you go to law school is a lot like the NFL draft. Every year, you KNOW several of the first round picks are going to come from Florida, Georgia, Ohio State, USC. Your top players from top schools are going to go in the first round. It's just the way it is. In addition, several stud players from "second tier" schools are also going to go in first round. California, Kansas State, Penn State, Texas Tech, Virginia, etc. Finally, you get maybe one or two players from totally random school in the first round who were absolute studs.

The rest of the draft ends up being a footnote with most players having a 50% chance or under to make the team. Players are selected from all over and you've never heard of most of them.

A few years out, however, you notice something: a lot of the guys who went in the first few rounds were total busts. Ryan Leaf, Vernon Gholston, Jamarcus Russell, etc. A few guys in the first round are absolute studs -- Payton Manning, Adrian Peterson, Mario Williams, etc. But then there are a few guys who went in the later rounds who are also studs -- Trent Cole, Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, Marques Colston, etc. Then you notice that the VAST MAJORITY of NFL players didn't go in the first or second round -- they were 4th, 5th, 6th round picks or even undrafted. They aren't the highest paid NFL players in the league, but they're solid journeymen. Think Todd Herremans, most offensive lineman, 3rd or 4th receiver, etc. They don't make a billion dollars a year, but they make a decent living for themselves in a profession they enjoy. Or maybe they hate it but it pays decently. The vast majority of NFL players aren't Payton Manning.

Of course, a lot of these kids (most) who were drafted in the later rounds or undrafted never make the team. They play on a practice squad, wander around for a few years, maybe try the CFL, and then they put football behind them.

A year out, no one cares where an NFL player went to school or what they did in college -- it's about production in the NFL. If you went to a good school and did some good things, some teams might be willing to take a second chance on the player, but for the most part, production in the NFL is the most dominant factor. No one cares that Tom Trump Supporter Brady was a 6th round pick from Michigan, and in fact, any team would pay a killing for him. Conversely, Jamarcus Russell is out of a job despite being a #1 pick from LSU. Although it happens, there is a very slim chance a guy will be cut from a few football teams and then suddenly become a starter.

Law is sort of the same way. The top of the best schools will get a chance in BIGLAW but it doesn't guarantee success. Some will be total success stories, others will be out of law in 5 years. Some of the guys who went to T4s will end up as partners in major BIGLAW firms sort of randomly. Maybe they start a profitable firm and it gets bought up, maybe they have an in with a big client. The majority of lawyers you know will make a decent living doing their thing -- they won't be making as much as a partner at Cravath, and their cases won't be hornbook material, but they're the vast majority of what makes up law and they'll make a decent living doing it. Sadly, a lot of the T2 - T4 grads will "never make the team", or in other words, they'll never be given the chance. They'll never work any meaningful legal job and then put law behind them before their career ever got started.

That's my two cents. Going to a great law school can help, but it's just one of factors that will determine your career.

awesomepossum
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby awesomepossum » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:49 am

That's deep.

doublefocus4
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby doublefocus4 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:11 am

Deep indeed.

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underachiever
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby underachiever » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:50 am

Dude thats life.
Talent alone can get you into a T14 school or a football scholly to an awesome school and sometimes it even is enough to let you do well there but at the very top level, the top 1% like the NFL or NYC biglaw talent alone is not enough.
I said this before in another post, and someone cited a Galdwell book I never read but it is work ethic (and luck) that matter once you reach that top 1%. You must be able to differentiate yourself from the others who already have awesome natural talent and you have to be able to adapt, work and continue to succeed which takes tons of effort that many will not put in.

Most people in law school have "the smarts" just as most people playing D-1 football have "the size" (or speed in some combination) but its what you do with the talent, esp at the next level, that matters.

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burtonrideclub
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby burtonrideclub » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:01 am

Andre Johnson was a top 5 pick for the record

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burtonrideclub
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby burtonrideclub » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:01 am

double post, but I see the point your are making. As a Texans fan though, it just kind of jumped out at me.

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PDaddy
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby PDaddy » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:35 am

Take it a step further. Some guys perform well at the "collegiate" level, ala top law students at top schools or top law students from not-so-top schools. The majority of them won't amount to a pile of shyt. The majority of good QB's in "the league" (V250/BigLaw and/or top "MidLaw" firms and/or corporations and prestigious gov't jobs) will come from the 2nd-4th rounds, ala top law grads from #20 through #75 or so schools.

Most of your 1st round, "can't miss" prospects (ala HYS grads), are mainly just good in school; they can't play tyhe game at the highest level, and the pro scouts, coaches and GM's from the top NFL teams (ala Cravath, Skadden, Latham, Sidley, Paul Weiss, etc.) soon discover that much of their draft picks' success was based on playing in systems that were tailor-made for them (starting with being evaluated on the LSAT and ending with soft grading systems), making them look much better than they are.

For example, HYS CCN PMVN BCDG don't often give out bad grades (YS give NO GRADES) b/c they must perpetuate the myth that their students are superior...thus their "players" are vastly overrated (especially those from HYS) and can't even get along in the pro "locker room" (i.e., the firm, with the other associates) most of the time. They think the other players (i.e., grads of lower-ranked schools) are jealous of them, but the truth is that they have poor people skills and work ethic and want to skate by on their accomplishments from college (i.e., "Do you know who I am, I went to Harvard!"). They feel entitled and wind up falling flat on their faces.

AJRESQ
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby AJRESQ » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:45 am

The difference between football and law is that success in football is entirely about talent while success in law isn't. In other words, in law, you can be less talented than others in terms of brain power and still be more successful if you can network, build clients, etc. In football, you can't network your way into a starting job.

Which receiver am I thinking of that was pretty good in a late round? I thought it was Andre Johnson. It must be Miles Austin from Dallas. I thought it was a receiver on the Texans though.

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CG614
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby CG614 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:14 am

How many threads are you going to make where you claim it doesn't matter where you go to law school? Get over it.

09042014
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:16 am

If you can't get into a good law school, you are probably pretty stupid.

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stintez
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby stintez » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:16 am

AJRESQ wrote:I've always wanted to write this article, so here goes...

Where you go to law school is a lot like the NFL draft. Every year, you KNOW several of the first round picks are going to come from Florida, Georgia, Ohio State, USC. Your top players from top schools are going to go in the first round. It's just the way it is. In addition, several stud players from "second tier" schools are also going to go in first round. California, Kansas State, Penn State, Texas Tech, Virginia, etc. Finally, you get maybe one or two players from totally random school in the first round who were absolute studs.

The rest of the draft ends up being a footnote with most players having a 50% chance or under to make the team. Players are selected from all over and you've never heard of most of them.

A few years out, however, you notice something: a lot of the guys who went in the first few rounds were total busts. Ryan Leaf, Vernon Gholston, Jamarcus Russell, etc. A few guys in the first round are absolute studs -- Payton Manning, Adrian Peterson, Mario Williams, etc. But then there are a few guys who went in the later rounds who are also studs -- Trent Cole, Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, Marques Colston, etc. Then you notice that the VAST MAJORITY of NFL players didn't go in the first or second round -- they were 4th, 5th, 6th round picks or even undrafted. They aren't the highest paid NFL players in the league, but they're solid journeymen. Think Todd Herremans, most offensive lineman, 3rd or 4th receiver, etc. They don't make a billion dollars a year, but they make a decent living for themselves in a profession they enjoy. Or maybe they hate it but it pays decently. The vast majority of NFL players aren't Payton Manning.

Of course, a lot of these kids (most) who were drafted in the later rounds or undrafted never make the team. They play on a practice squad, wander around for a few years, maybe try the CFL, and then they put football behind them.

A year out, no one cares where an NFL player went to school or what they did in college -- it's about production in the NFL. If you went to a good school and did some good things, some teams might be willing to take a second chance on the player, but for the most part, production in the NFL is the most dominant factor. No one cares that Tom Trump Supporter Brady was a 6th round pick from Michigan, and in fact, any team would pay a killing for him. Conversely, Jamarcus Russell is out of a job despite being a #1 pick from LSU. Although it happens, there is a very slim chance a guy will be cut from a few football teams and then suddenly become a starter.

Law is sort of the same way. The top of the best schools will get a chance in BIGLAW but it doesn't guarantee success. Some will be total success stories, others will be out of law in 5 years. Some of the guys who went to T4s will end up as partners in major BIGLAW firms sort of randomly. Maybe they start a profitable firm and it gets bought up, maybe they have an in with a big client. The majority of lawyers you know will make a decent living doing their thing -- they won't be making as much as a partner at Cravath, and their cases won't be hornbook material, but they're the vast majority of what makes up law and they'll make a decent living doing it. Sadly, a lot of the T2 - T4 grads will "never make the team", or in other words, they'll never be given the chance. They'll never work any meaningful legal job and then put law behind them before their career ever got started.

That's my two cents. Going to a great law school can help, but it's just one of factors that will determine your career.

+1

ze2151
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby ze2151 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:17 am

Clearly a flame because he had the nerve to call Penn State a "second tier school."

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:25 am

AJRESQ wrote:I've always wanted to write this article, so here goes...

Where you go to law school is a lot like the NFL draft. Every year, you KNOW several of the first round picks are going to come from Florida, Georgia, Ohio State, USC. Your top players from top schools are going to go in the first round. It's just the way it is. In addition, several stud players from "second tier" schools are also going to go in first round. California, Kansas State, Penn State, Texas Tech, Virginia, etc. Finally, you get maybe one or two players from totally random school in the first round who were absolute studs.

The rest of the draft ends up being a footnote with most players having a 50% chance or under to make the team. Players are selected from all over and you've never heard of most of them.

A few years out, however, you notice something: a lot of the guys who went in the first few rounds were total busts. Ryan Leaf, Vernon Gholston, Jamarcus Russell, etc. A few guys in the first round are absolute studs -- Payton Manning, Adrian Peterson, Mario Williams, etc. But then there are a few guys who went in the later rounds who are also studs -- Trent Cole, Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, Marques Colston, etc. Then you notice that the VAST MAJORITY of NFL players didn't go in the first or second round -- they were 4th, 5th, 6th round picks or even undrafted. They aren't the highest paid NFL players in the league, but they're solid journeymen. Think Todd Herremans, most offensive lineman, 3rd or 4th receiver, etc. They don't make a billion dollars a year, but they make a decent living for themselves in a profession they enjoy. Or maybe they hate it but it pays decently. The vast majority of NFL players aren't Payton Manning.

Of course, a lot of these kids (most) who were drafted in the later rounds or undrafted never make the team. They play on a practice squad, wander around for a few years, maybe try the CFL, and then they put football behind them.

A year out, no one cares where an NFL player went to school or what they did in college -- it's about production in the NFL. If you went to a good school and did some good things, some teams might be willing to take a second chance on the player, but for the most part, production in the NFL is the most dominant factor. No one cares that Tom Trump Supporter Brady was a 6th round pick from Michigan, and in fact, any team would pay a killing for him. Conversely, Jamarcus Russell is out of a job despite being a #1 pick from LSU. Although it happens, there is a very slim chance a guy will be cut from a few football teams and then suddenly become a starter.

Law is sort of the same way. The top of the best schools will get a chance in BIGLAW but it doesn't guarantee success. Some will be total success stories, others will be out of law in 5 years. Some of the guys who went to T4s will end up as partners in major BIGLAW firms sort of randomly. Maybe they start a profitable firm and it gets bought up, maybe they have an in with a big client. The majority of lawyers you know will make a decent living doing their thing -- they won't be making as much as a partner at Cravath, and their cases won't be hornbook material, but they're the vast majority of what makes up law and they'll make a decent living doing it. Sadly, a lot of the T2 - T4 grads will "never make the team", or in other words, they'll never be given the chance. They'll never work any meaningful legal job and then put law behind them before their career ever got started.

That's my two cents. Going to a great law school can help, but it's just one of factors that will determine your career.


This would be an excellent argument if it were not a retarded analogy and we lived in an alternate reality where this argument was true.

AJRESQ
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby AJRESQ » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:02 am

CG614 wrote:How many threads are you going to make where you claim it doesn't matter where you go to law school? Get over it.


I am glad you posted this. It's an example of how some people lack the ability to understand a complex concept. Those are the people who do poorly in law, when you try and break down a complex thought into something black and white.

I have never said "it doesn't matter where you go to law school." What I have said is that where you go to law school is one of many factors in your legal career; certainly not the defining one. The analogy is football -- a good law school (like an NFL player coming from a big football school) is helpful in the beginning, and will get you noticed right off the bat in BIGLAW (like a stud from Florida or Georgia), but it won't guarantee you a good career (like Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell). It certainly can help, though... like it did with Payton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, etc. While it's more difficult to "make the team" from a T4, there are a lot of T4 "journeymen" in the practie of law as well as random T4 studs who end up like Trent Cole. And then, of course, a lot of guys don't want to play in the NFL and are perfectly happy being in the CFL or coaching a high school team. And they don't end up with as many concussions. However, a few years out, like in the NFL, where you went to school isn't nearly as important as performance and ability to produce.

If that concept is too difficult to grasp, avoid law. Law is far more complex.

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CG614
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby CG614 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:18 am

AJRESQ wrote:
CG614 wrote:How many threads are you going to make where you claim it doesn't matter where you go to law school? Get over it.


I am glad you posted this. It's an example of how some people lack the ability to understand a complex concept. Those are the people who do poorly in law, when you try and break down a complex thought into something black and white.

I have never said "it doesn't matter where you go to law school." What I have said is that where you go to law school is one of many factors in your legal career; certainly not the defining one. The analogy is football -- a good law school (like an NFL player coming from a big football school) is helpful in the beginning, and will get you noticed right off the bat in BIGLAW (like a stud from Florida or Georgia), but it won't guarantee you a good career (like Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell). It certainly can help, though... like it did with Payton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, etc. While it's more difficult to "make the team" from a T4, there are a lot of T4 "journeymen" in the practie of law as well as random T4 studs who end up like Trent Cole. And then, of course, a lot of guys don't want to play in the NFL and are perfectly happy being in the CFL or coaching a high school team. And they don't end up with as many concussions. However, a few years out, like in the NFL, where you went to school isn't nearly as important as performance and ability to produce.

If that concept is too difficult to grasp, avoid law. Law is far more complex.

No, it is more aptly and example of chicken little. You cry about how the law school doesn't matter so much, that nobody cares to actually read your post. And, don't fool yourself, the underlying message in your post is that the name of the law school is not that important.

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby KibblesAndVick » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:26 am

AJRESQ wrote:
CG614 wrote:How many threads are you going to make where you claim it doesn't matter where you go to law school? Get over it.


I am glad you posted this. It's an example of how some people lack the ability to understand a complex concept. Those are the people who do poorly in law, when you try and break down a complex thought into something black and white.

I have never said "it doesn't matter where you go to law school." What I have said is that where you go to law school is one of many factors in your legal career; certainly not the defining one. The analogy is football -- a good law school (like an NFL player coming from a big football school) is helpful in the beginning, and will get you noticed right off the bat in BIGLAW (like a stud from Florida or Georgia), but it won't guarantee you a good career (like Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell). It certainly can help, though... like it did with Payton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, etc. While it's more difficult to "make the team" from a T4, there are a lot of T4 "journeymen" in the practie of law as well as random T4 studs who end up like Trent Cole. And then, of course, a lot of guys don't want to play in the NFL and are perfectly happy being in the CFL or coaching a high school team. And they don't end up with as many concussions. However, a few years out, like in the NFL, where you went to school isn't nearly as important as performance and ability to produce.

If that concept is too difficult to grasp, avoid law. Law is far more complex.


So your point is that even if you don't go to a top flight law school it is still possible to have a successful career in law? Earth shattering...

What you're failing to notice, both in football and in law, is the percentage of players/students who make it. At a top flight school a much much larger percentage of players achieve success at the next level. There are players/students who do great things coming out of less renowned schools but there are so few of them. You have to be at the very top of your class. If you play D-II football and end up in the NFL the odds are that you're the only player from your team who did that. If you go to a T3 law school and end up at a V25 firm you're probably the only (or one of only a handful) that did so.

Your argument seems to rest on the point that "other factors" such as hard work are just as, if not more, important than where you went to school. What you've failed to establish is any logical reason why students at the lower schools are harder workers. Granted there will be some, but if you take 10 HYS students and 10 directional state students I think it's a safe bet that the HYS students are smarter and harder working. This doesn't preclude the lower ranked student from achieving success but statistically the odds are terrible...

fakemoney
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby fakemoney » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:56 am

LSAT = combine.

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:02 pm

CG614 wrote:How many threads are you going to make where you claim it doesn't matter where you go to law school? Get over it.


+180
loled when i read this

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holydonkey
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby holydonkey » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:06 pm

AJRESQ wrote:Tom Trump Supporter Brady was a 6th round pick from Michigan, and in fact, any team would pay a killing for him. Conversely, Jamarcus Russell is out of a job despite being a #1 pick from LSU.
I think this only proves that it's always better to choose the 6th round pick from Michigan than the #1 pick from LSU. :P

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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby truffleshuffle » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:35 pm

What type of stock adjectives are used to describe the students? Are the top kids from 2nd tier schools defined as "gritty" and "hardworking"? Is the kid from Harvard that graduated just outside the top-25% get picked because of "potential"?

What if there was a televised event for receiving offers from firms and John Gruden could be there and go "THIS GUY...................can litigate!" Also, some kid who graduated #1 from Cooley can be the subject of debate between Mel Kiper and Todd McShay.

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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby Bryan » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:39 pm

.
Last edited by Bryan on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JetstoRJC
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby JetstoRJC » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:59 pm

Here is a different perspective using your NFL Draft analogy...

If I am going to be a football player, I want to be a starting quarterback. I don't want to be some TTT running back who has maybe 3 to 4 years of good football before injuries take over. I don't want to be a wide receiver who gets laid out every time he runs a route across the middle of the field. And I certainly don't want to be an obese lineman who suffers health problems after his playing days are over.

The point is, being a starting quarterback is the job to have. Now how do I go about getting that job?

Over half of the projected starting quarterbacks for the 2010 season got drafted in the first round (18 out of 32).

Only 6 starting quarterbacks were drafted in the 6th round or later.

25 of the 32 starting quarterbacks went to a BCS school.

So how do you get the best job in football? Go to a powerhouse school and get drafted early.

You can draw your own analogy from that.

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sundance95
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby sundance95 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:07 pm

fakemoney wrote:LSAT = combine - UnderArmor.


FTFY.

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sundance95
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby sundance95 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:08 pm

truffleshuffle wrote:What type of stock adjectives are used to describe the students? Are the top kids from 2nd tier schools defined as "gritty" and "hardworking"? Is the kid from Harvard that graduated just outside the top-25% get picked because of "potential"?

What if there was a televised event for receiving offers from firms and John Gruden could be there and go "THIS GUY...................can litigate!" Also, some kid who graduated #1 from Cooley can be the subject of debate between Mel Kiper and Todd McShay.


Win. /thread

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capitalacq
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Re: Choosing a law school and the NFL Draft

Postby capitalacq » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:57 pm

Desert Fox wrote:If you can't get into a good law school, you are probably pretty stupid.


and another LOL post from pdaddy.




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