HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

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Informative
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby Informative » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:28 pm

That is true. It is just not a T20 school when it comes to law firm placement. Not bad for a school in St. Louis, but not exactly impressive.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

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Rock Chalk
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby Rock Chalk » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:35 pm

Informative wrote:
Rock Chalk wrote:
Informative wrote:WUSTL is overanked. Should probably be ranked in the high 20s/low 30s given its reputation and inability to place grads in top law firms.

Are you just regurgitating info you heard from another troll? WUSTL's peer assessment score says it's ranked appropriately and it's lawyer/judge reputation score is higher than that of USC. The only place it lags is in NLJ 250 placement, where it gets beat out by a few lower ranked schools located in much bigger cities with far more NLJ 250 firms. I'm no WUSTL troll but there's nothing worse than "Anti-School X" trolls with unsubstantiated complaints.


So the one thing that is important to law students, top law firm hiring, is the one thing you discredit? lol.

I didn't discredit anything. You made the claim that WUSTL's reputation is lagging for its ranking, and I provided evidence that it isn't. You also said that it is unable to place grads in top law firms, which is clearly not true since it's rankied 24th in NLJ 250 placement and the schools that are ranked below WUSTL that have better placement are (besides ND which is 1% higher) BU, BC, GW, and Fordham, which are located in Boston, DC, and NYC, respectively, and their placement can easily be attributed to location as WUSTL has better reputation scores than all of them. Apparently "discredit" means "provide meaningful information about" to you.

Everyone knows that the biggest cities have the most big law firms, and (with very few if any exceptions) going to school in a city increases your chances of being hired there. WUSTL's NLJ 250 numbers fall right in line with its ranking, all things considered. So what's your real issue?

Informative
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby Informative » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:52 pm

So why would you ever advise someone to go to a school with an immediate handicap in getting a job from its location in the middle of nowhere? WUSTL is a good school and Duke is a good School. Both are in the middle of nowhere. However, Duke's reputation is significantly better to be able to place students in large out-of-state markets.

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snowpeach06
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby snowpeach06 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:12 pm

The wording makes it seem like you aren't guaranteed a spot next year. Given that... I think it would be stupid to not go to WUST.

Furthermore, even if you were promised a spot, you still have the issue of money. Will you be spending money on living expenses while doing nothing this year? Do you have a job already, or will you have to spend time looking? You probably won't get $ at Duke. I think, in this case, you are putting much too much emphasis on the rankings. WUST is still a great school. It's not like your choice is Quinnipiac and Duke.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby Rock Chalk » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:33 pm

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Last edited by Rock Chalk on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bosque
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby Bosque » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:40 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:The wording makes it seem like you aren't guaranteed a spot next year. Given that... I think it would be stupid to not go to WUST.

Furthermore, even if you were promised a spot, you still have the issue of money. Will you be spending money on living expenses while doing nothing this year? Do you have a job already, or will you have to spend time looking? You probably won't get $ at Duke. I think, in this case, you are putting much too much emphasis on the rankings. WUST is still a great school. It's not like your choice is Quinnipiac and Duke.



You missed the discussion earlier I guess. The consensus is that there are two possible outcomes to accepting Dukes offer. they are:

1) Duke accepts you and you go to Duke next year, likely at sticker.
2) Duke rejects you and you go to whatever school you were planning to go to this year.

So, the worst case scenario is you end up exactly where you started. So if you would be willing to pay sticker at Duke instead of almost sticker at WUSTL (and you should), then it seems like you would be an idiot not to sign the form.

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stratocophic
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:17 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:
Informative wrote:So why would you ever advise someone to go to a school with an immediate handicap in getting a job from its location in the middle of nowhere? WUSTL is a good school and Duke is a good School. Both are in the middle of nowhere. However, Duke's reputation is significantly better to be able to place students in large out-of-state markets.

It's still a great school deserving of its rank, especially for someone who wants to practice in the midwest. Just because the firms aren't NLJ 250 doesn't mean they don't exist or are shitlaw. If you're a prestige whore dead set on biglaw then by all means WUSTL is a worse choice than BU, BC, or Fordham. However, it is, by USNWR standards and reputation scores, a better school deserving of its rank.

The only pseudo-legitimate gripe I've heard about WUSTL's ranking is that it's "bought," as they are known to offer generous scholarships. Other than that, the location is already accounted for by way of prestige whores who wouldn't touch the STL market with a 10 ft pole as well as employment statistics which, as I've said, lag due to location. I'm not at all arguing that WUSTL is on the same level as Duke or any other T14. All I'm saying is it's rightfully 19th ranked and that the trolls who gripe about it are generally ill-informed.
Again, we repeat: not all market paying firms are NLJ 250. NLJ placement numbers do not capture every market firm. They are a better indicator for schools that place solely (like Fordham) or primarily (like UIUC) into major markets like NYC/Chi. WUSTL places heavily into the major firms of KC and StL (and maybe Indy, but I'm not positive). There are only 2 firms in StL that are on the
NLJ list, and at least 6-8 (and almost certainly more, I believe closer to 10 or 11) that pay at or within 10k of the city's market rate. Beyond those non-NLJ 250 firms, the top of the class generally (YMMV ITE) places into Vwhatever firms in NYC/Chi. The placement numbers are right in line with if not superior to its peers when factors like earnings vs. COL are considered. Go back to xoxo.

So no more off topic: OP, I'd take Duke (or I would have if they hadn't cut me from the WL :evil: ). Worst comes to worst, you give yourself an extra year of cushion between you and the "lost generation" and go to WashU next year.

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romothesavior
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:13 pm

Informative wrote:So why would you ever advise someone to go to a school with an immediate handicap in getting a job from its location in the middle of nowhere? WUSTL is a good school and Duke is a good School. Both are in the middle of nowhere. However, Duke's reputation is significantly better to be able to place students in large out-of-state markets.


Your argument is an amorphous mess.

Should these people take Duke over WUSTL? Yeah, absent a massive scholarship (like close to full) I'd say absolutely. Duke is better than WUSTL. But saying, "Take Duke over WUSTL" does not require you to come in here and spew a bunch of shit about how WUSTL is overranked. Typical case of the "I heard it on TLS so it must be true" mentality.

But strato, careful about your facts... there are more than 2 NLJ 250 firms in St. Louis. I can think of Lewis Rice, Bryan Cave, and Thompson Coburn off the top of my head.

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romothesavior
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:14 pm

And I just looked it up... looks like Husch and Armstrong Teasdale are both in STL. So that's five. This list may be dated, though.

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stratocophic
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:24 pm

romothesavior wrote:And I just looked it up... looks like Husch and Armstrong Teasdale are both in STL. So that's five. This list may be dated, though.
My signals are crossed, I think. I believe I'm naming firms that are HQed there, not just have any kind of presence. AT and BC are the only ones HQed there, although IIRC Husch somehow has 2 HQs (KC and StL). My bad :oops: Strength of argument is lessened, but it still stands. There are more than 5 firms that pay market/close to market in StL. There are 9 on the NALP directory (plus Sonnenschein's office) and I'm not sure about any others.

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romothesavior
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:26 pm

stratocophic wrote:
romothesavior wrote:And I just looked it up... looks like Husch and Armstrong Teasdale are both in STL. So that's five. This list may be dated, though.
My signals are crossed, I think. I believe I'm naming firms that are HQed there, not just have any kind of presence. AT and BC are the only ones HQed there, although IIRC Husch somehow has 2 HQs (KC and StL). My bad :oops: Strength of argument is lessened, but it still stands. There are more than 5 firms that pay market/close to market in StL. There are 9 on the NALP directory (plus Sonnenschein's office) and I'm not sure about any others.


Lewis Rice and Thompson Coburn are HQ'd in STL.

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Reedie
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby Reedie » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:50 pm

My impression of WUSTL when I visited was that it's a great school. I view the "buying their ranking" thing as a major positive, WUSTL is really spending in an effort to build a 1st rate program and it shows. I am sure that being in a tertiary market does hurt them in some placement metrics, but remember it is also top dog in a fairly large region with a couple medium sized cities (KC+STL). Going to WUSTL certainly wouldn't be a mistake, especially if you are anxious to start school.

With that said, I'd choose Duke in your position.

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stratocophic
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby stratocophic » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:04 am

romothesavior wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
romothesavior wrote:And I just looked it up... looks like Husch and Armstrong Teasdale are both in STL. So that's five. This list may be dated, though.
My signals are crossed, I think. I believe I'm naming firms that are HQed there, not just have any kind of presence. AT and BC are the only ones HQed there, although IIRC Husch somehow has 2 HQs (KC and StL). My bad :oops: Strength of argument is lessened, but it still stands. There are more than 5 firms that pay market/close to market in StL. There are 9 on the NALP directory (plus Sonnenschein's office) and I'm not sure about any others.


Lewis Rice and Thompson Coburn are HQ'd in STL.
Continuing fail. One for my computer for being too shitty to properly use CTRL-F and one for me for relying on my shitty computer... and one more for good measure for not just sorting by city on the list. Painful.

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PomasThynchon
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby PomasThynchon » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:36 pm

Informative wrote:So why would you ever advise someone to go to a school with an immediate handicap in getting a job from its location in the middle of nowhere? WUSTL is a good school and Duke is a good School. Both are in the middle of nowhere. However, Duke's reputation is significantly better to be able to place students in large out-of-state markets.


Sorry to bump, but this thread isn't that old. The WUSTL/Duke prestige debate is really kind of silly. Duke was never a school with the pedigree of HYS. It's newer, did not have the benefit of affiliation with the Ivy League that bumped some lesser schools up (cough, Brown, cough), and it is located in the South to boot. Back in the day, when Richard Nixon went there for law school, it was definitely a good school, but it was an up-and-comer, with nowhere near the reputation it enjoys today as a name-brand. Unless you're HYS, or part of the Ivy League, your reputation is not set in stone, for better or for worse.

WUSTL shares a lot in common with Duke: a location away from the coasts/major market cities, lack of name brand recognition, but it has excellent programs and has been slowly attracting top notch scholars and administrators and building itself up. WUSTL is 1960s-70s Duke--an excellent, underrated up-and-comer.

There's nothing special about Duke except for the name recognition (which is important, or course). I'd go to Duke because of the name recognition. But Duke basically had WUSTL's rep 30 years ago and beyond. Duke is in a shitty location, and you would not think it would be a T14-but it is, because of name recognition. Only difference between Duke and WUSTL. Name recognition. Which attracts the better scholars and prestige oriented employers. Once you fight tooth and brand for a name brand and get it, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And if WUSTL continues at the rate it's going, in a decade or two there's no reason it shouldn't have the same (borderline overrated) reputation Duke has.

But again, in terms of career prospects today...Duke.

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romothesavior
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:40 pm

PomasThynchon wrote:Sorry to bump, but this thread isn't that old.

7 months old isn't that old?

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clintonius
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby clintonius » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:41 pm

Yeah, just so everybody's clear, you DEFINITELY should have picked Duke seven months ago. Glad we got that straightened out.

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PomasThynchon
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby PomasThynchon » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:42 pm

clintonius wrote:Yeah, just so everybody's clear, you DEFINITELY should have picked Duke seven months ago. Glad we got that straightened out.


Not my point. The overrating of Duke is one of my greatest pet peeves. Better prestige and career prospects, comparatively. I just...people forget the time when Duke was not prestigious, when it was an underrated school exactly like WUSTL is today.

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romothesavior
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:45 pm

PomasThynchon wrote:
clintonius wrote:Yeah, just so everybody's clear, you DEFINITELY should have picked Duke seven months ago. Glad we got that straightened out.


Not my point. The overrating of Duke is one of my greatest pet peeves. Better prestige and career prospects, comparatively. I just...people forget the time when Duke was not prestigious, when it was an underrated school exactly like WUSTL is today.

What are you basing this on?

1) WUSTL, based on placement power, is arguably a little overrated, and certainly not underrated (and this is coming from the biggest WUSTL advocate on TLS).
2) What in the hell makes you say that Duke 30 years ago = WUSTL today? Ridiculous.
3) Duke is not overrated. It is a great school with solid career prospects.
4) Bumping this thread had zero purpose whatsoever.

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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby rebexness » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:46 pm

Last edited by rebexness on Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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clintonius
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby clintonius » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:48 pm

PomasThynchon wrote:
clintonius wrote:Yeah, just so everybody's clear, you DEFINITELY should have picked Duke seven months ago. Glad we got that straightened out.

Not my point. The overrating of Duke is one of my greatest pet peeves. Better prestige and career prospects, comparatively. I just...people forget the time when Duke was not prestigious, when it was an underrated school exactly like WUSTL is today.

I wanna put you in a big glass jar with quakeroats. For SCIENCE.

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PomasThynchon
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby PomasThynchon » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:
PomasThynchon wrote:
clintonius wrote:Yeah, just so everybody's clear, you DEFINITELY should have picked Duke seven months ago. Glad we got that straightened out.


Not my point. The overrating of Duke is one of my greatest pet peeves. Better prestige and career prospects, comparatively. I just...people forget the time when Duke was not prestigious, when it was an underrated school exactly like WUSTL is today.

What are you basing this on?

1) WUSTL, based on placement power, is arguably a little overrated, and certainly not underrated (and this is coming from the biggest WUSTL advocate on TLS).
2) What in the hell makes you say that Duke 30 years ago = WUSTL today? Ridiculous.
3) Duke is not overrated. It is a great school with solid career prospects.
4) Bumping this thread had zero purpose whatsoever.


Duke is a great school. But it was founded (relatively) recently. And it was always regarded as a good school, but never really considered a "Top 10" overall research university until the last couple of decades. It was always a little underrated. WUSTL has similar locational handicaps, and it is an underrated school that is slowly getting better and better. No, it's not ridiculous. I'm basing this on my observation of cultural history. Every single person I've met born before 1965 agrees with me. They're both great schools, anyway, but Duke is now considered the Ivy League of the South. Wasn't always the case.

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PomasThynchon
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby PomasThynchon » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:50 pm

PomasThynchon wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
PomasThynchon wrote:
clintonius wrote:Yeah, just so everybody's clear, you DEFINITELY should have picked Duke seven months ago. Glad we got that straightened out.


Not my point. The overrating of Duke is one of my greatest pet peeves. Better prestige and career prospects, comparatively. I just...people forget the time when Duke was not prestigious, when it was an underrated school exactly like WUSTL is today.

What are you basing this on?

1) WUSTL, based on placement power, is arguably a little overrated, and certainly not underrated (and this is coming from the biggest WUSTL advocate on TLS).
2) What in the hell makes you say that Duke 30 years ago = WUSTL today? Ridiculous.
3) Duke is not overrated. It is a great school with solid career prospects.
4) Bumping this thread had zero purpose whatsoever.


Duke is a great school. But it was founded (relatively) recently. And it was always regarded as a good school, but never really considered a "Top 10" overall research university until the last couple of decades. It was always a little underrated. WUSTL has similar locational handicaps, and it is an underrated school that is slowly getting better and better. No, it's not ridiculous. I'm basing this on my observation of cultural history. Every single person I've met born before 1965 agrees with me. They're both great schools, anyway, but Duke is now considered the Ivy League of the South. Wasn't always the case.


And why in the hell is it ridiculous to say that WUSTL = Duke of 30 years ago? I'm not trying to knock Duke. I'm not saying there are big similarities, or that it means that Duke wasn't a good school. I mean that in terms of LAY PRESTIGE, Duke has increased a lot in the past few decades.

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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby paulinaporizkova » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:52 pm

An historical relic! Kool!

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romothesavior
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:55 pm

Because this is Top LAW Schools. Nobody gives a rats ass about the public perception, or ranking as a research university, or any of that other garbage. In any case, WUSTL is a top 20 school in almost every USNWR ranking, and they are like 3rd in the nation in medical research. So your argument that WUSTL doesn't get respect (especially as a research school), and is therefore similar to Duke 30 years ago, is completely whack (not to mention completely pointless and off the mark for what this thread used to be about back in mid-2010).

I know the OP, I know the decision they made, and I know for sure they don't need you to come in here 7 months after the fact and tell them where to go. Let this thread re-die, please.

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Regionality
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Re: HELP!!! Duke Law 2011 or WUSTL 2010??

Postby Regionality » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:32 am

romothesavior wrote:Because this is Top LAW Schools. Nobody gives a rats ass about the public perception, or ranking as a research university, or any of that other garbage. In any case, WUSTL is a top 20 school in almost every USNWR ranking, and they are like 3rd in the nation in medical research. So your argument that WUSTL doesn't get respect (especially as a research school), and is therefore similar to Duke 30 years ago, is completely whack (not to mention completely pointless and off the mark for what this thread used to be about back in mid-2010).

I know the OP, I know the decision they made, and I know for sure they don't need you to come in here 7 months after the fact and tell them where to go. Let this thread re-die, please.


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