Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

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Regionality
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Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby Regionality » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:20 am

So, the conventional TLS wisdom is that no one should bank on being able to transfer UP, as in transfer into a T1 from a T2, to a T14 from lower T1, etc....but how difficult is it to transfer from one law school to another w/in 5 ranks of it?

What are the disadvantages? Does having been accepted to the school one is trying to transfer in to help with the cause?

I ask because I may find myself in this situation next year. At this point I'm going to Wisconsin, but I might want to end up back in the Bay Area based on personal reasons...I was already accepted to Davis and Hastings (both of which were unappealing to me at the time, based on price, visits and the condition of the California market)...and I may want to transfer back to the bay area.

How easy is this? What are the downsides of losing ones grades? In THESE situations do transfer students ever get scholarship money?

Any insight would be great!

pocket herc
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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers

Postby pocket herc » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:24 am

how are you placed in your wisconsin class right now?

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Regionality
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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby Regionality » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:25 am

Im starting my 1L year this fall. I am foreseeing a potential personal reason why I might need to transfer back, but it hasn't happened yet.

pocket herc
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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby pocket herc » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:30 am

well, I imagine you would have to finish above median at least...but to be completely honest I don't really know, these sort of transfers are uncommon.

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Regionality
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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby Regionality » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:14 pm

anyone have some insight into this?

transfer4545
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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby transfer4545 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:21 pm

No way you're going get a scholarship because schools only give those out to boost their USNWR numbers which transfers don't factor into. I know a girl from my upper-TTT who was able to transfer to a lower TT state school whose adcoms told her that she would be competitive with a 3.0+ gpa (read median).

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Regionality
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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby Regionality » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:33 pm

transfer4545 wrote:No way you're going get a scholarship because schools only give those out to boost their USNWR numbers which transfers don't factor into. I know a girl from my upper-TTT who was able to transfer to a lower TT state school whose adcoms told her that she would be competitive with a 3.0+ gpa (read median).


If this is true, then how come students in the top 5-10% of their class, who are looking to transfer to higher ranked schools, inevitably get significant rides from their current law schools? This wouldn't affect their first year class USNWR rankings either...

Do people agree, hypothetically speaking, that if one were to get in the top 5% of their class at a #28 ranked school that they wouldn't receive a scholarship from another #28 ranked school if they were to transfer?

transfer4545
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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby transfer4545 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:49 pm

From the way you posed your question it appeared that you were asking if you could transfer from wisco to school x and get $$$ at school x.

If you did mean what I interpreted it to mean, then the reason why you can threaten to transfer from your current school and get $$$ from your current school is because you are already there and your current school wants to use your employment stats when you land the big job and hopefully entice you to make big donations later down the line.

99.99% sure you won't get scholly money no matter where you transfer to no matter what school you currently attend. The 0.01% might be if you transferred from Harvard to Cooley and if that was the case you could use the extra money saved to get your head examined...lol!
Last edited by transfer4545 on Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:52 pm

Paying to keep top-5% kids around makes sense because those are the kids who are going to best represent the school in the future, and be most likely to help it out with things like providing alumni connections and donations as they achieve their near-inevitable success. You don't want your best students leaving you, because they're going to be the future of your funding and job placement if they stay, so you pay them to stay.

There's nearly no chance of scholarship $$$ for transfers, period. What you get from a transfer is the benefit of going to that other school, which you obviously want to attend more since you're transferring there. One reason schools love transfers is they're almost universally happy to pay sticker to be in a place they want. If you don't fit that mold, you're not what they're looking for.

All that said, the disadvantages of transferring can include:

1) You may have problems at OCI, where employers are expecting students who actually were 1Ls at that school. You won't have a GPA at the school you're transferring to, so unless the place you're applying is also familiar with the school you transferred from, they may end up wondering how to classify you. Also, some schools simply refuse to let transfers participate in their 2L OCI. The school you're transferring from might bar you from their OCI as well, since you're leaving them. You could end up being unable to participate in 2L OCI altogether, or at least have a rougher time of it.

2) You may lose the ability, or have a reduced ability, to be on Law Review or other journals. It's usually easier to get onto a journal (and a journal of your choice) at a school you stay at than one you transfer into. Plus, you'll end up having to do two writing competitions (one at your old school, in case you stay there, and one at your new school as a 2L, to try to get onto a journal again).

3) Some schools do initial moot court competitions during 1L year. It may be harder to get onto moot court as a transfer.

4) If there are any faculty that like you after 1L, you're moving away from them. You won't be able to really use them as a resource anymore. This can matter, because you may need LORs or connections to help you get jobs or internships or clerkships that you really want.

Essentially, your plan is terrible. If you want to work in the Bay Area, withdraw from Wisconsin, and either 1) ask Hastings or Davis if they'll reopen your file and take you or 2) wait a year and reapply. You're going to end up in the upper midwest for many years (your 3 years of law school, plus your first job will very likely be there due to the limited regional reach of a Wisconsin degree). If you're not okay with that now, don't go.

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby MrKappus » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:53 pm

Regionality wrote:
transfer4545 wrote:No way you're going get a scholarship because schools only give those out to boost their USNWR numbers which transfers don't factor into. I know a girl from my upper-TTT who was able to transfer to a lower TT state school whose adcoms told her that she would be competitive with a 3.0+ gpa (read median).


If this is true, then how come students in the top 5-10% of their class, who are looking to transfer to higher ranked schools, inevitably get significant rides from their current law schools? This wouldn't affect their first year class USNWR rankings either...

Do people agree, hypothetically speaking, that if one were to get in the top 5% of their class at a #28 ranked school that they wouldn't receive a scholarship from another #28 ranked school if they were to transfer?


I think "inevitably" might be putting it too generously. You certainly have a shot at getting scholarship money from your current school, but it's by no means a sure thing. Schools give (or increase) scholarships to keep high-ranking students b/c they know those students will likely succeed in OCI, which raises their salary and employment numbers.

However, schools accepting transfer students are presumably less concerned with taking students from lower-ranked schools, even if those students were high performers, b/c they know that transfer students' chances in OCI (at their new school) are hit or miss.

That's my theory, anyway.

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby sanpiero » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:57 pm

Regionality wrote:Do people agree, hypothetically speaking, that if one were to get in the top 5% of their class at a #28 ranked school that they wouldn't receive a scholarship from another #28 ranked school if they were to transfer?

:lol:

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby Regionality » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:23 pm

Thanks for the info so far people.

My reason for transferring would not be because I want to work in the Bay Area more than the upper midwest. My reason for transferring would be a very strong personal reason, one that has not yet materialized but COULD materialize during my 1L.

Also, I'm not interested in BigLaw, and while I realize the OCI isn't exclusively for BigLaw, I've always expected the type of law I end up going into will be one that I'll have to do a lot of legwork on my own, so I'm ok with that.

Obviously, if this does end up being necessary, I would prefer to have done well my 1L and transfer up to Berkeley or Stanford, but I would never bank on it or expect to do this well.

Right now I am very happy with my Wisconsin decision. They gave me a scholarship, I'd love to work in Milwaukee or Chicago, I didn't particularly love the UC's, the California legal market is crap, the UC's are going to get more and more expensive, and it makes sense for me in many ways.

I am just trying to get a sense of how terrible a decision this would be if I end up only able to make a lateral move to Davis or Hastings (keeping in mind I'm not interested in BigLaw)

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby sanpiero » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:00 pm

Regionality wrote:Thanks for the info so far people.

My reason for transferring would not be because I want to work in the Bay Area more than the upper midwest. My reason for transferring would be a very strong personal reason, one that has not yet materialized but COULD materialize during my 1L.

Also, I'm not interested in BigLaw, and while I realize the OCI isn't exclusively for BigLaw, I've always expected the type of law I end up going into will be one that I'll have to do a lot of legwork on my own, so I'm ok with that.

Obviously, if this does end up being necessary, I would prefer to have done well my 1L and transfer up to Berkeley or Stanford, but I would never bank on it or expect to do this well.

Right now I am very happy with my Wisconsin decision. They gave me a scholarship, I'd love to work in Milwaukee or Chicago, I didn't particularly love the UC's, the California legal market is crap, the UC's are going to get more and more expensive, and it makes sense for me in many ways.

I am just trying to get a sense of how terrible a decision this would be if I end up only able to make a lateral move to Davis or Hastings (keeping in mind I'm not interested in BigLaw)


Hastings takes quite a few transfers. Davis takes some, but fewer. As long as you don't end up in the bottom half of your class at UW and this compelling personal reason to transfer materializes, you shouldn't have a lot of trouble transferring. With the compelling reason and a t1/3 finish, i'd say you have a strong app.

Your last clause confuses me. Are you saying that you wouldn't be satisfied coming back, even if the compelling reason materializes, if you have to attend Davis or Hastings? Davis and Hastings are both strong schools for the Bay Area. It's going to be very tough to transfer to B or SLS. You will need at least t10% for B and probably t5% for SLS.

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby Regionality » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:28 pm

sanpiero wrote:
Regionality wrote:Thanks for the info so far people.

My reason for transferring would not be because I want to work in the Bay Area more than the upper midwest. My reason for transferring would be a very strong personal reason, one that has not yet materialized but COULD materialize during my 1L.

Also, I'm not interested in BigLaw, and while I realize the OCI isn't exclusively for BigLaw, I've always expected the type of law I end up going into will be one that I'll have to do a lot of legwork on my own, so I'm ok with that.

Obviously, if this does end up being necessary, I would prefer to have done well my 1L and transfer up to Berkeley or Stanford, but I would never bank on it or expect to do this well.

Right now I am very happy with my Wisconsin decision. They gave me a scholarship, I'd love to work in Milwaukee or Chicago, I didn't particularly love the UC's, the California legal market is crap, the UC's are going to get more and more expensive, and it makes sense for me in many ways.

I am just trying to get a sense of how terrible a decision this would be if I end up only able to make a lateral move to Davis or Hastings (keeping in mind I'm not interested in BigLaw)


Hastings takes quite a few transfers. Davis takes some, but fewer. As long as you don't end up in the bottom half of your class at UW and this compelling personal reason to transfer materializes, you shouldn't have a lot of trouble transferring. With the compelling reason and a t1/3 finish, i'd say you have a strong app.

Your last clause confuses me. Are you saying that you wouldn't be satisfied coming back, even if the compelling reason materializes, if you have to attend Davis or Hastings? Davis and Hastings are both strong schools for the Bay Area. It's going to be very tough to transfer to B or SLS. You will need at least t10% for B and probably t5% for SLS.


No, I was asking what the downsides to transferring are...as in losing 1L grades, potentially getting screwed at OCI, law review, etc.

Are they insurmountable barriers or just major inconveniences?

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby NoJob » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:51 pm

Regionality wrote:
sanpiero wrote:
Regionality wrote:Thanks for the info so far people.

My reason for transferring would not be because I want to work in the Bay Area more than the upper midwest. My reason for transferring would be a very strong personal reason, one that has not yet materialized but COULD materialize during my 1L.

Also, I'm not interested in BigLaw, and while I realize the OCI isn't exclusively for BigLaw, I've always expected the type of law I end up going into will be one that I'll have to do a lot of legwork on my own, so I'm ok with that.

Obviously, if this does end up being necessary, I would prefer to have done well my 1L and transfer up to Berkeley or Stanford, but I would never bank on it or expect to do this well.

Right now I am very happy with my Wisconsin decision. They gave me a scholarship, I'd love to work in Milwaukee or Chicago, I didn't particularly love the UC's, the California legal market is crap, the UC's are going to get more and more expensive, and it makes sense for me in many ways.

I am just trying to get a sense of how terrible a decision this would be if I end up only able to make a lateral move to Davis or Hastings (keeping in mind I'm not interested in BigLaw)


Hastings takes quite a few transfers. Davis takes some, but fewer. As long as you don't end up in the bottom half of your class at UW and this compelling personal reason to transfer materializes, you shouldn't have a lot of trouble transferring. With the compelling reason and a t1/3 finish, i'd say you have a strong app.

Your last clause confuses me. Are you saying that you wouldn't be satisfied coming back, even if the compelling reason materializes, if you have to attend Davis or Hastings? Davis and Hastings are both strong schools for the Bay Area. It's going to be very tough to transfer to B or SLS. You will need at least t10% for B and probably t5% for SLS.


No, I was asking what the downsides to transferring are...as in losing 1L grades, potentially getting screwed at OCI, law review, etc.

Are they insurmountable barriers or just major inconveniences?


Unless you wind up on law review at UW and Moot Court and in the top 10%, your best shots for work are the WISPD or as a prosecutor or shitlaw. Hopefully, they gave you a scholarship.

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby Regionality » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:44 am

NoJob wrote:
Regionality wrote:
sanpiero wrote:
Regionality wrote:Thanks for the info so far people.

My reason for transferring would not be because I want to work in the Bay Area more than the upper midwest. My reason for transferring would be a very strong personal reason, one that has not yet materialized but COULD materialize during my 1L.

Also, I'm not interested in BigLaw, and while I realize the OCI isn't exclusively for BigLaw, I've always expected the type of law I end up going into will be one that I'll have to do a lot of legwork on my own, so I'm ok with that.

Obviously, if this does end up being necessary, I would prefer to have done well my 1L and transfer up to Berkeley or Stanford, but I would never bank on it or expect to do this well.

Right now I am very happy with my Wisconsin decision. They gave me a scholarship, I'd love to work in Milwaukee or Chicago, I didn't particularly love the UC's, the California legal market is crap, the UC's are going to get more and more expensive, and it makes sense for me in many ways.

I am just trying to get a sense of how terrible a decision this would be if I end up only able to make a lateral move to Davis or Hastings (keeping in mind I'm not interested in BigLaw)


Hastings takes quite a few transfers. Davis takes some, but fewer. As long as you don't end up in the bottom half of your class at UW and this compelling personal reason to transfer materializes, you shouldn't have a lot of trouble transferring. With the compelling reason and a t1/3 finish, i'd say you have a strong app.

Your last clause confuses me. Are you saying that you wouldn't be satisfied coming back, even if the compelling reason materializes, if you have to attend Davis or Hastings? Davis and Hastings are both strong schools for the Bay Area. It's going to be very tough to transfer to B or SLS. You will need at least t10% for B and probably t5% for SLS.


No, I was asking what the downsides to transferring are...as in losing 1L grades, potentially getting screwed at OCI, law review, etc.

Are they insurmountable barriers or just major inconveniences?


Unless you wind up on law review at UW and Moot Court and in the top 10%, your best shots for work are the WISPD or as a prosecutor or shitlaw. Hopefully, they gave you a scholarship.


SCARY LOUD NOISES!! NO GET AWAY!!

Anyone have insight into the question at hand?

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby sanpiero » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:43 am

Regionality wrote:
sanpiero wrote:Hastings takes quite a few transfers. Davis takes some, but fewer. As long as you don't end up in the bottom half of your class at UW and this compelling personal reason to transfer materializes, you shouldn't have a lot of trouble transferring. With the compelling reason and a t1/3 finish, i'd say you have a strong app.

Your last clause confuses me. Are you saying that you wouldn't be satisfied coming back, even if the compelling reason materializes, if you have to attend Davis or Hastings? Davis and Hastings are both strong schools for the Bay Area. It's going to be very tough to transfer to B or SLS. You will need at least t10% for B and probably t5% for SLS.


No, I was asking what the downsides to transferring are...as in losing 1L grades, potentially getting screwed at OCI, law review, etc.

Are they insurmountable barriers or just major inconveniences?


OCI is going to be rough for you regardless of whether you're attending UW, Hastings, or Davis. Very few students at those schools obtain SAs through OCI. You won't "lose" 1L grades, if you transfer. During 2L OCI, recruiters will likely treat you as a student ranked X from UW, no matter where you transfer. Of course, if you transfer to a t10 - like B or SLS - you may get a slight boost. But, in general you will be treated like you are still attending your previous school. Losing law review woud suck, if you are lucky enough to grade or write on at UW. I don't think, by itself, it's reason enough not to transfer to a higher ranked school, especially if your compelling reason arises.

Are you asking about the downsides of transferring b/c you are still considering CA schools? Or, are you looking ahead to next spring when you might need to start submitting transfer apps?

If I knew eventually I would be headed back to the bay area, whether it was for personal or professional reasons, I would not attend UW. Transferring is a huge pain in the ass and you might not even have the grades to transfer to Hastings or Davis after 1L. There is certainly a substantial value to attending your law school for 3 consecutive years, instead of only 2. You will be able to forge stronger relationships w professors, have more externships in your region of choice, get to know more ppl in your region of choice that could have a positive impact on your career in the future, etc. From what you've said, I get the impression that you plan to eventually be back in the bay area for one reason or another, but I could be way off.

BTW, do you have any personal connections to the midwest?

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby Regionality » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:56 pm

sanpiero wrote:
Regionality wrote:
sanpiero wrote:Hastings takes quite a few transfers. Davis takes some, but fewer. As long as you don't end up in the bottom half of your class at UW and this compelling personal reason to transfer materializes, you shouldn't have a lot of trouble transferring. With the compelling reason and a t1/3 finish, i'd say you have a strong app.

Your last clause confuses me. Are you saying that you wouldn't be satisfied coming back, even if the compelling reason materializes, if you have to attend Davis or Hastings? Davis and Hastings are both strong schools for the Bay Area. It's going to be very tough to transfer to B or SLS. You will need at least t10% for B and probably t5% for SLS.


No, I was asking what the downsides to transferring are...as in losing 1L grades, potentially getting screwed at OCI, law review, etc.

Are they insurmountable barriers or just major inconveniences?


OCI is going to be rough for you regardless of whether you're attending UW, Hastings, or Davis. Very few students at those schools obtain SAs through OCI. You won't "lose" 1L grades, if you transfer. During 2L OCI, recruiters will likely treat you as a student ranked X from UW, no matter where you transfer. Of course, if you transfer to a t10 - like B or SLS - you may get a slight boost. But, in general you will be treated like you are still attending your previous school. Losing law review woud suck, if you are lucky enough to grade or write on at UW. I don't think, by itself, it's reason enough not to transfer to a higher ranked school, especially if your compelling reason arises.

Are you asking about the downsides of transferring b/c you are still considering CA schools? Or, are you looking ahead to next spring when you might need to start submitting transfer apps?

If I knew eventually I would be headed back to the bay area, whether it was for personal or professional reasons, I would not attend UW. Transferring is a huge pain in the ass and you might not even have the grades to transfer to Hastings or Davis after 1L. There is certainly a substantial value to attending your law school for 3 consecutive years, instead of only 2. You will be able to forge stronger relationships w professors, have more externships in your region of choice, get to know more ppl in your region of choice that could have a positive impact on your career in the future, etc. From what you've said, I get the impression that you plan to eventually be back in the bay area for one reason or another, but I could be way off.

BTW, do you have any personal connections to the midwest?


Thanks for the excellent thoughts.

It may be that I eventually end up in the Bay Area, but I'm not worried about that right now. It's not a necessity to my legal career, and certainly not a necessity to the beginning of my legal career. I definitely believe there is substantial value to attending law school to all 3 years, and I would be more than happy if it ended up being UW...

I do have strong ties to the midwest. I went to undergrad in Chicago, have many friends in WI and IL, and would be thrilled if I ended up working in either Milwaukee or Chicago. Transferring is in the back of my head as an unlikely option...if I get grades that allow me to transfer up I will because I am a prestige whore. If my compelling personal reason arises as a reason to transfer back to the Bay Area I am trying to gauge my options and the consequences of different types of transfers.

Like, if I am at median at UW, are Davis and Hastings on the table? (and if I'm at median, I wouldnt be on Law Review or have particularly excellent positioning at OCI, so losing my 1L grades wouldnt really matter)...If I'm top 30% at UW I may still not have good enough grades to get into Boalt or SLS, but those grades might be good enough to give me a boost at OCI at UW, which would be unfortunate to lose if I had to go back to the Bay Area, right?

Let me put it this way: I love the midwest, would love to work in the upper midwest, have a decent COA going to UW, am excited to be living in Madison, am scared of the California legal market, am pessimistic about the UC's increasing COA, and didn't like Hastings or Davis when I visited.

All that being said, it may become absolutely necessary (I would say 20% likely) that I try to come back to the bay area for family reasons, and I'm trying to understand my options and their ramifications.

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Re: Possibility of Lateral Transfers- Transferring w/in T30

Postby sanpiero » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:27 pm

Regionality wrote:All that being said, it may become absolutely necessary (I would say 20% likely) that I try to come back to the bay area for family reasons, and I'm trying to understand my options and their ramifications.


OK, i think we're on the same page now. Congrats on getting into UW w a good scholly, btw.

Anyway, if the compelling reason does arise, do you really have a choice? As i understand your situation, you would be forced to transfer to norcal school. So, why not just do your damn best this year and see how everything works out. If you are forced to transfer and you are in the t10%, have fun at B or SLS. If you are forced to transfer and you are t1/3, Hastings and Davis will likely accept you. If you are forced to trasnfer and you are t50% or worse, you might have to go to a school like SCU. I think you would hurt yourself in the short-term if you had to trasnfer to Hastings, Davis, or a lesser ranked school. You'd lose the opportunity to develop 3-year relationships w profs, CA employers might question your committment to CA, OCI employers might not treat your UW grades as if you earned them at Hastings or Davis even though they are more or less peer schools, etc. Over the long-term, however, you'd be in the place you need to be and, if you graduate from H or D, you'll have a strong law school on your resume.

If you had to transfer to B or SLS, otoh, you would be giving your career a huge boost, imo.




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