Is paying sticker at MVPB really stupid? Forum

[berkeleykel06]

In general, would the majority of the people here say that paying sticker at one of these schools is a stupid life decision? (a quick look at my post history can easily reveal which school I'm referring to in my case, but to keep the discussion more general I'd rather talk about the schools as a group).

I know many people would probably respond that it depends on your other options, but I'm trying to think of this regardless of other options. Obviously if you didn't get scholarships to any other schools and/or you know you can't retake and improve your LSAT, paying sticker at one of these schools would be your best option, and hence less stupid. However, that doesn't mean its not still stupid overall.

What do you guys think?

[Bildungsroman]

Paying sticker at these schools is generally worth it.

[jnorsky]

Way I think of it is this. As a splitter, I am not getting a lot of money anywhere that has "very good" job prospects and can get me the types of jobs that i would be fulfilled doing. Obviously, taking money at a school like Vandy or UCLA, or even Fordham for NYC biglaw would be a good idea over sticker at these schools in certain situations with certain people. But, if my options are: 30K at WUSTL, 0K from MVPB, and Full ride at like Brooklyn, I would much rather just go for sticker to MVPB. But with my numbers, i probably cant get into Texas, UCLA or Vandy. Andthe only schools that would give me a ton of money are schools that, no offense, i wouldn't want to waste my time at.

Edit: It is a risk, but why not take it, you only live once. And if you suck at law school, you can drop out after 1L and try and do something else that you are good at with debt that is pretty manageable once you get a decent job

[sumus romani]

The Y or nothing crowd is a bit crazy. But MVPB at sticker puts one over $210,000 in debt (perhaps not B in state?). I can certainly see why one might worry, especially because median does not get one biglaw from those schools anymore.

[dk8]

i don't think it's really stupid, but it is taking a risk

[straxen]

If the hypothetical is MVPB at sticker or nothing, I'd say it's generally worth it if you don't have much opportunity cost, though risky. It seems like that hypothetical is most likely with someone in at UVA ED with a low GPA, but otherwise would be fairly unusual. It might well be stupid, however, depending on what the other options are.

[Grizz]

Different schools of though on this, which all depend on how cautious a person is. Many will say generally yes, another sizable group will argue only HYS or HYSCCN are worth it, especially since ITE, median scorers don't generally land biglaw.

Very tough to consider in a vacuum without knowing career goals, financial situation, other options, etc.

[09042014]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=121418

[jnorsky]

If the hypothetical is MVPB at sticker or nothing, I'd say it's generally worth it if you don't have much opportunity cost, though risky. It seems like that hypothetical is most likely with someone in at UVA ED with a low GPA, but otherwise would be fairly unusual. It might well be stupid, however, depending on what the other options are.

right on the money

[berkeleykel06]

If the hypothetical is MVPB at sticker or nothing, I'd say it's generally worth it if you don't have much opportunity cost, though risky. It seems like that hypothetical is most likely with someone in at UVA ED with a low GPA, but otherwise would be fairly unusual. It might well be stupid, however, depending on what the other options are.

right on the money

Apparently I fall into the "fairly unusual" group then. Great.

[berkeleykel06]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=121418

Dang, I always forget I have Berkeley in my username. But I'm not going to B, in case anyone is assuming that.

Edit-And that thread is making me lean towards stupid.

[ze2151]

are you asking me? yes, P at sticker would have been very stupid. but as others have said, it varies person to person.

[Voyager]

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/we-knew- ... more-23746

Dude. Michigan is now posting shitlaw jobs in INDIA for its grads.

Paying sticker is a bad idea.

[Grizz]

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/we-knew- ... more-23746

Dude. Michigan is now posting shitlaw jobs in INDIA for its grads.

Paying sticker is a bad idea.

The fabled international law jobs I've been hearing about?

[howcani111]

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/we-knew- ... more-23746

Dude. Michigan is now posting shitlaw jobs in INDIA for its grads.

Paying sticker is a bad idea.

[berkeleykel06]

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/we-knew- ... more-23746

Dude. Michigan is now posting shitlaw jobs in INDIA for its grads.

Paying sticker is a bad idea.

lol, are you in my boat?

[Voyager]

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/we-knew- ... more-23746

Dude. Michigan is now posting shitlaw jobs in INDIA for its grads.

Paying sticker is a bad idea.

The fabled international law jobs I've been hearing about?

lol. exactly.

Schools charge way way way too much for the shitty jobs a juris doctorate can get the average law student. When your school is trying to sell you on a shit job in India, you know your degree is garbage.

at this point, I could see paying sticker at Columbia/Chicago/NYU and above and that is about it... although even at Columbia and good 10% of the current graduated class is jobless and a good 30% of the current rising 3Ls could not get biglaw for the summer. Shocking.

Otherwise, one is better off becoming an electrician.

[goawaybee]

at this point, I could see paying sticker at Columbia/Chicago/NYU and above and that is about it... although even at Columbia and good 10% of the current graduated class is jobless and a good 30% of the current rising 3Ls could not get biglaw for the summer. Shocking.

Otherwise, one is better off becoming an electrician.

This is extreme IMO.

above comment is fine if it is BigLaw or bust. If you are financially responsible and understand how money works and what goes on in the real world even a TTTT at sticker can get you to where you need to be.

Below quote is what these decisions all come down to almost every single time. Again if it is HYS or bust, big law or bust...why even risk it. 3 years of work missed even at 50k, 200k in debt paid over 20 yrs you are crippled from the start.

Very tough to consider in a vacuum without knowing career goals, financial situation, other options, etc.

[nycparalegal]

This is probably my biggest fear!! I have a low GPA 3.0 and i'm finally getting into the 170's in PT.

I'm pretty much shut out of all but the lower end of the t-14 schools. It really makes me think twice about going into law.

[holydonkey]

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: I thought about this a long time when I was trying to decide between Michigan and Vandy with a ton of cash. I can completely understand why someone would choose the money and I can also understand why someone that got into HYS might think paying sticker would be crazy, but most people that are paying sticker at MVPB are not in this position. Generally the choice is paying sticker at MVPB or taking a half ride at Vandy/USC/WUSTL or close to a full ride at GW/Illinois etc. So why choose MVPB in this position? A few thoughts:

1. Better LRAP. Yes, you will be paying more, but if your choice is between $100k in debt with a bad/no LRAP and $175k with a good LRAP it makes choosing the more expensive school more reasonable. If I end up making $35k at a small firm my first year out because I finished at the bottom of my class, I pay nothing at Michigan. I would still have to pay at Vandy/USC/WUSTL. The halfway decent Federal IBR does not apply to small firms/business positions that require a JD. A good LRAP makes debt repayment possible no matter your income level.

2. Better shot at Biglaw. Yes, Vandy has placed well in Biglaw. But outside of Vandy, your chances at Biglaw are drastically reduced if you are not attending a T14 school. If you're interested in Biglaw, and I am, ITE it is tough at a T14 but insane outside a T14.

3. Better shot at PI/Gov. Even if you're not interested in Biglaw, MVPB will give you a far better shot at competitive PI or Gov. If you're interested in these fields, the LRAP at these schools becomes even more important.

4. Portability. In a bad economy you want to be able to bid on firms in New York, DC, Chicago, SF, LA, Atlanta, anywhere. T14 gives you access to these markets. USC/WUSTL/GW (even Vandy) really not as much.

5. Connections. Seriously. I've had the chance to network with Michigan alums 3 times since March at mixers. I've picked up cards. I've met nice people. Vandy had 0 events in the market I'd like to work in (DC). Even GW didn't offer much of a chance to meet alums in DC. Outside of Michigan, really the school that did this best in my opinion was strangely Illinois. ITE, connections are as important as grades.

6. Better education. T10 schools offer great clinical programs, amazing speakers, and top notch faculty. Sure the faculty teach the same 1L curriculum everywhere, but your options for 2L and 3L are so much better at a higher ranked school. Maybe this matters for jobs and maybe it will just make law school more enjoyable. Either way it's a benefit.

7. Better clerkship opportunities.

8. Better chance at academia. Of course it's tough to go this route even with a degree from MVPB, but try doing it from William & Mary or UNC. If you'd like a shot, it seems like you have to go T12.

I think it's completely fair to think about all the benefits of MVPB and still come to the conclusion that the debt isn't worth it, but I don't think you could label someone that chose MVPB at sticker over half a ride at USC/WUSTL as stupid.

[lebob]

as my teacher used to say,

there are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

(heh. but seriously, i don't think paying sticker at these schools is stupid)

[Kurama]

The answer to this question is going to vary from person to person. Personally, I think that if you are young (under 30) and you actually want to be a lawyer, then paying sticker is fine. If you are willing to work in a PI field or something of that nature the LRAP and federal IBR at these schools will cover you (especially at Boalt). Obviously if you land a six figure job that will cover your debt as well.

One thing I just don't get is this pervasive sentiment that it's worth paying sticker at NYU but not at Michigan, UVA, Penn, or Boalt. Honestly, all the data suggests that unless you want to work in NYC there is no difference between NYU and MPVB. People really rely too much on the USNWR numerical rankings. If you look at the assessment scores (especially the lawyer/judge ones) NYU comes out the same or worse than MVPB. As far as placement data is concerned it's pretty evident that once you leave the NYC area NYU places just like MVPB. And whenever I've talked to lawyers etc. in real life they really don't consider NYU any different than Michigan or Boalt etc. If you really feel like you have to make demarcations about what schools are and aren't worth sticker you really have to say either HYS are only worth sticker or HYS and CC are only worth sticker...but whatever....

[howcani111]

[berkeleykel06]

Very tough to consider in a vacuum without knowing career goals, financial situation, other options, etc.

Fair enough. I just wanted a chance to get an overall picture of whether or not this is generally a bad decision before delving specifically into my case.

My LSAT is 166. I retook it in June because I felt I could improve upon this but I feel like I made the same mistakes as I did the first time and won't improve my score, despite all PTs in the mid-170s
My GPA is above 3.9.
My career goal is to work for the Federal Govt but I would like to do biglaw if at all possible coming out of law school for a few years, and I dream of a Fed Cir clerkship.
I want my degree to have as national a reach as possible because my boyfriend's career may take him to California.
I am straight out of undergrad.
I did not get significant scholarships at any other schools I applied to, most likely because of the relatively low LSAT.
I value prestige highly.
I have about 40k undergrad debt.
I am generally not debt adverse (see above) but the thought of over 200k + interest makes me want to throw up.

[romothesavior]

I value prestige highly.

Then definitely don't go to Berkeley.