Hastings v. Davis Forum

[Ranran1116]

Just got off the waitlist of Hastings. Also accepted to Davis. Have to answer by sunday for Hastings, and next tuesday for Davis. I have read all the posts in the forum about those two schools, but still can not make a decision.
So where should I go? Hastings or Davis? Both are full price for non-resident.

[drdolittle]

I also had to choose between Hastings and Davis, albeit with more time to think it through. I picked Hastings because of location. Since I intend to go into IP law, I feel I should be as near as possible to the top two IP schools (i.e. Berkeley and Stanford) to compete for the best internship/job opportunities throughout the year. Sounds counter-intuitive, but I was convinced of this even more after contacting current Hastings and Davis students via TLS and otherwise, as well as bay area patent attorneys.

But it was by no means an easy decision because I really liked Davis. I assume you cannot visit Hastings with such short notice, so I'd say in general, as others have posted, if you'd prefer a college town atmosphere with personal attention, pick Davis. On the other hand, if you'd prefer a faster paced city environment, a more typical professional school setting putting you very near courts and a large legal market (and direct competition), choose Hastings. It really is a personal decision on where you think you'd fit in best.

With respect to cost of attendance, it's ridiculous, but it's the price of going to law school in CA, I'm afraid. Going out of state, or even away from the SF bay area, was never a real possibility for me.

Overall, both schools cost virtually the same, so don't let that influence you.

[bk1]

Do you want to live in a city or a college town while you are attending law school?

[ozarkhack]

In before some idiot references USNWR rankings to settle this.

First of all, OP: Congrats. Two good choices. I hope to agonize right along with you, as soon as Hastings calls me off the WL. I'm also out-of-stater paying full price.

Davis' advantages here are its much smaller class size and its removed-from-the-grind college-town bubble.

Hastings has location, location, location. I can't think of a better place to be than San Francisco. And Hastings' certainly has a leg up in terms of access to top-shelf, logistically easy externships.

If you're looking for PI/govt, and plan a career in it with no private-sector work in first 10 years, Hastings' PICAP pretty much should seal the deal. Assuming you started your PI/govt career at around $50k, PICAP would save you $4,000 to $5,000 per year compared to using Davis' LRAP, which also is capped at a lower salary. That's not chump change.

The more I think about it, the more I realize I cannot drum up a Davis advantage that isn't related to "atmosphere." And while I guess that's somewhat important, and it has been my leading factor as I wonder about Hastings' WL, I can't help but wonder if that's not a really stupid thing to base this decision on. Set aside this more superficial factor, and Hastings seems to win it running away.

But still ...

[Ranran1116]

Do you want to live in a city or a college town while you are attending law school?

I do not care the atmosphere or environment of the school, yet I do not want to end up in a small town... I am a foreigner, so better find a job in a international firm.

[Ranran1116]

In before some idiot references USNWR rankings to settle this.

First of all, OP: Congrats. Two good choices. I hope to agonize right along with you, as soon as Hastings calls me off the WL. I'm also out-of-stater paying full price.

Davis' advantages here are its much smaller class size and its removed-from-the-grind college-town bubble.

Hastings has location, location, location. I can't think of a better place to be than San Francisco. And Hastings' certainly has a leg up in terms of access to top-shelf, logistically easy externships.

If you're looking for PI/govt, and plan a career in it with no private-sector work in first 10 years, Hastings' PICAP pretty much should seal the deal. Assuming you started your PI/govt career at around $50k, PICAP would save you $4,000 to $5,000 per year compared to using Davis' LRAP, which also is capped at a lower salary. That's not chump change.


The more I think about it, the more I realize I cannot drum up a Davis advantage that isn't related to "atmosphere." And while I guess that's somewhat important, and it has been my leading factor as I wonder about Hastings' WL, I can't help but wonder if that's not a really stupid thing to base this decision on. Set aside this more superficial factor, and Hastings seems to win it running away.

But still ...

I got the email yesterday afternoon(my phone was off). By the way, I am surprised to see so many people's confidence in Hastings despite its drop in rank.

[Ranran1116]

I also had to choose between Hastings and Davis, albeit with more time to think it through. I picked Hastings because of location. Since I intend to go into IP law, I feel I should be as near as possible to the top two IP schools (i.e. Berkeley and Stanford) to compete for the best internship/job opportunities throughout the year. Sounds counter-intuitive, but I was convinced of this even more after contacting current Hastings and Davis students via TLS and otherwise, as well as bay area patent attorneys.

But it was by no means an easy decision because I really liked Davis. I assume you cannot visit Hastings with such short notice, so I'd say in general, as others have posted, if you'd prefer a college town atmosphere with personal attention, pick Davis. On the other hand, if you'd prefer a faster paced city environment, a more typical professional school setting putting you very near courts and a large legal market (and direct competition), choose Hastings. It really is a personal decision on where you think you'd fit in best.

With respect to cost of attendance, it's ridiculous, but it's the price of going to law school in CA, I'm afraid. Going out of state, or even away from the SF bay area, was never a real possibility for me.

Overall, both schools cost virtually the same, so don't let that influence you.

I guess the location of Hastings maybe helpful for me to find a job in a firm with international business? I am not going to do IP, I may practice law related to business. Hastings seems enjoy a good reputation, yet it is hard to ignore the drop of rank...

[bk1]

I got the email yesterday afternoon(my phone was off). By the way, I am surprised to see so many people's confidence in Hastings despite its drop in rank.

I haven't looked at the exact stats that have caused UCH's drop in rank, but its employment has stayed relatively equal to UCD's and the reputation of the two in CA is about the same. Looking at previous rankings, UCH didn't report their numbers for one year and ever since then it seems like USNWR has bitchslapped them for it.

Take a look at employment charts available, UCD and UCH are relatively similar in that regard.

[mec30]

IP is law related to business. In a service economy, where a lot of any particular company's value is non-material, IP is huge. It's also big with corporations that want to open operations in the united states.

[Ranran1116]

IP is law related to business. In a service economy, where a lot of any particular company's value is non-material, IP is huge. It's also big with corporations that want to open operations in the united states.

My UG major is business administration, so can not do IP.

[ozarkhack]

I haven't looked at the exact stats that have caused UCH's drop in rank, but its employment has stayed relatively equal to UCD's and the reputation of the two in CA is about the same. Looking at previous rankings, UCH didn't report their numbers for one year and ever since then it seems like USNWR has bitchslapped them for it.

Take a look at employment charts available, UCD and UCH are relatively similar in that regard.

Davis' peer assessment & judge/lawyer assessment scores, on scale of 1-5, are 3.4 & 3.5. Hastings' are 3.3 & 3.7. I think these numbers are probably pretty useless. But it's what we've got.

Taken for what they are, the numbers mean that academia considers Davis slightly better than Hastings, though this could simply be due to rounding. And for reason we just have to accept, the opinions of academia carry more weight than any other single factor in the UNSWR rankings. ... Meanwhile, the scores also tell us that the folks who actually make up the world of legal employers hold Hastings in slightly higher esteem.

Hastings probably also loses a little bit by having a worse student-faculty ratio. And Davis likely got a boost in per-student expenditures b/c of its major expansion/renovation project.

Anyway, OP, it all boils down to this: The schools are virtually the same.

[380yarddrives]

Hastings has location, location, location. I can't think of a better place to be than San Francisco. And Hastings' certainly has a leg up in terms of access to top-shelf, logistically easy externships.

About 30 Minutes south...

--ImageRemoved--

[mi-chan17]

Ozarkhack made some excellent points in his/her original response, but just throw another spin on it out there:

All the things that Ozarkhack said about Hastings' location are true -- it is a decent-sized legal market and is physically closer to externships; it's also got more competition (Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA/USC sometimes, T14 grads coming in, etc).

Davis, although located in kind of the middle of nowhere, is much more dominant in its nearest market (Sacremento) than Hastings is in SF and faces less stiff competition (McGeorge is all I can think of off the top of my head). So although you might not be able to walk to your externship, I'd argue that it might be easier to get an externship at all -- and a more prestigious one. Davis also has a smaller class class, further limiting how much competition you'd be facing.

However, all of this may be utterly unimportant based on your goals. Overall, in terms of quality, I think they're about the same. The only difference comes in a) atmosphere and b) home market (SF versus Sac). Don't worry about the rankings. Past the top T(10/14/20/30...depending on who you ask) it's not about rank overall, but rank within the region. Hastings is still well-regarded in California, and in the Bay Area especially.

TL;DR version:

You want SF/urban setting --> Hastings
SacTown/Government/cows --> Davis

[20160810]

Davis is an amazing town. Pretty much everyone who lives here loves it. Then again, SF is a world-class city if you have the cash to pull off living there. Job prospects are pretty identical, the difference isn't nearly as great as the 28-42 rankings spread indicates. Go where you'll feel most comfortable and at home.

[20160810]

Ozarkhack made some excellent points in his/her original response, but just throw another spin on it out there:

All the things that Ozarkhack said about Hastings' location are true -- it is a decent-sized legal market and is physically closer to externships; it's also got more competition (Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA/USC sometimes, T14 grads coming in, etc).

Davis, although located in kind of the middle of nowhere, is much more dominant in its nearest market (Sacremento) than Hastings is in SF and faces less stiff competition (McGeorge is all I can think of off the top of my head). So although you might not be able to walk to your externship, I'd argue that it might be easier to get an externship at all -- and a more prestigious one. Davis also has a smaller class class, further limiting how much competition you'd be facing.

However, all of this may be utterly unimportant based on your goals. Overall, in terms of quality, I think they're about the same. The only difference comes in a) atmosphere and b) home market (SF versus Sac). Don't worry about the rankings. Past the top T(10/14/20/30...depending on who you ask) it's not about rank overall, but rank within the region. Hastings is still well-regarded in California, and in the Bay Area especially.

TL;DR version:

You want SF/urban setting --> Hastings
SacTown/Government/cows --> Davis

This is kind of a silly trope that gets bandied about too much. Davis is 10 minutes from Downtown Sacramento, and 1.5M people live in the Sac Metro Area. It's not like it's in North Dakota.

[Ranran1116]

Ozarkhack made some excellent points in his/her original response, but just throw another spin on it out there:

All the things that Ozarkhack said about Hastings' location are true -- it is a decent-sized legal market and is physically closer to externships; it's also got more competition (Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA/USC sometimes, T14 grads coming in, etc).

Davis, although located in kind of the middle of nowhere, is much more dominant in its nearest market (Sacremento) than Hastings is in SF and faces less stiff competition (McGeorge is all I can think of off the top of my head). So although you might not be able to walk to your externship, I'd argue that it might be easier to get an externship at all -- and a more prestigious one. Davis also has a smaller class class, further limiting how much competition you'd be facing.

However, all of this may be utterly unimportant based on your goals. Overall, in terms of quality, I think they're about the same. The only difference comes in a) atmosphere and b) home market (SF versus Sac). Don't worry about the rankings. Past the top T(10/14/20/30...depending on who you ask) it's not about rank overall, but rank within the region. Hastings is still well-regarded in California, and in the Bay Area especially.

TL;DR version:

You want SF/urban setting --> Hastings
SacTown/Government/cows --> Davis

This is kind of a silly trope that gets bandied about too much. Davis is 10 minutes from Downtown Sacramento, and 1.5M people live in the Sac Metro Area. It's not like it's in North Dakota.

How about job opportunities in SF for Davis students?

[20160810]

Ozarkhack made some excellent points in his/her original response, but just throw another spin on it out there:

All the things that Ozarkhack said about Hastings' location are true -- it is a decent-sized legal market and is physically closer to externships; it's also got more competition (Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA/USC sometimes, T14 grads coming in, etc).

Davis, although located in kind of the middle of nowhere, is much more dominant in its nearest market (Sacremento) than Hastings is in SF and faces less stiff competition (McGeorge is all I can think of off the top of my head). So although you might not be able to walk to your externship, I'd argue that it might be easier to get an externship at all -- and a more prestigious one. Davis also has a smaller class class, further limiting how much competition you'd be facing.

However, all of this may be utterly unimportant based on your goals. Overall, in terms of quality, I think they're about the same. The only difference comes in a) atmosphere and b) home market (SF versus Sac). Don't worry about the rankings. Past the top T(10/14/20/30...depending on who you ask) it's not about rank overall, but rank within the region. Hastings is still well-regarded in California, and in the Bay Area especially.

TL;DR version:

You want SF/urban setting --> Hastings
SacTown/Government/cows --> Davis

This is kind of a silly trope that gets bandied about too much. Davis is 10 minutes from Downtown Sacramento, and 1.5M people live in the Sac Metro Area. It's not like it's in North Dakota.

How about job opportunities in SF for Davis students?

SF is UCD's primary employment market, prospects are for all purposes identical to those of Hastings.

[Borhas]

if you absolutely want PI/G Hastings because of superior PICAP

if not then some calculation of the setting vs cost

[Ranran1116]

if you absolutely want PI/G Hastings because of superior PICAP

if not then some calculation of the setting vs cost

Cost is the same and want firm job.

[20160810]

if you absolutely want PI/G Hastings because of superior PICAP

if not then some calculation of the setting vs cost

Cost is the same and want firm job.

Cost is far from the same. You're going to be spending about 60% as much to live a comparable lifestyle in Davis.

[Borhas]

if you absolutely want PI/G Hastings because of superior PICAP

if not then some calculation of the setting vs cost

Cost is the same and want firm job.

since cost is the same, and since employment prospects are virtually identical

I'd say Hastings, since SF is just so much cooler than Sacramento

[Ranran1116]

Living in one of the biggest city in the world, I am sick of city life. So seems like I will be happier at Davis.

[Borhas]

seems like an easy choice then, godspeed

[mi-chan17]

This is kind of a silly trope that gets bandied about too much. Davis is 10 minutes from Downtown Sacramento, and 1.5M people live in the Sac Metro Area. It's not like it's in North Dakota.

When I've been to Davis, it's felt like the middle of nowhere to me, but that might just be a personal thing. For background, though, I did my undergrad in SF so I'm used to a larger city setting.

Living in one of the biggest city in the world, I am sick of city life. So seems like I will be happier at Davis.

If you're sick of city life, then Davis is undoubtedly the way to go. Make sure you apply for CA residency for your 2 and 3L years.

[General Tso]

SF is UCD's primary employment market, prospects are for all purposes identical to those of Hastings.

Wrong - http://californiabar.globl.org/report.p ... 0&g=2&pp=5

UCD places nearly 2x as many grads in Sacramento as in SF...my primary reason for choosing Hastings instead.

OP if you want to bank on at 33-50% chance of being stuck in the Central Valley, then by all means choose Davis. But I recommend you visit first