New ABA Data Forum

[09042014]

One thing was can agree on though is that very top applicants are throwing away their money in applying to Hastings.

175+/3.5+ would be throwing their money away by applying at Hastings even if they were getting accepted and offered full rides.

The sad thing is that I would wager that some of them are so dead set on living in CA that they would seriously consider Hastings over T14's, after getting rejected from Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, and USC.

A fullride at UCH or UCD would be pretty decent for a person looking at San Francisco.

[angiej]

Am I confused? When I follow the link, at the top it says "2011 Official Guide" but then it says the data is from fall 2009 admissions cycle.

[Birdman]

It's always a year behind, the admissions numbers for fall 2010 aren't entirely set yet.

[danidancer]

Am I confused? When I follow the link, at the top it says "2011 Official Guide" but then it says the data is from fall 2009 admissions cycle.

Considering there's still WL movement happening over the summer, I don't think they'll have fall 2010 entering class info for awhile yet. I'm really interested to see how the application increases across the board this year impact the 2010 stats...

[angiej]

Am I confused? When I follow the link, at the top it says "2011 Official Guide" but then it says the data is from fall 2009 admissions cycle.

Considering there's still WL movement happening over the summer, I don't think they'll have fall 2010 entering class info for awhile yet. I'm really interested to see how the application increases across the board this year impact the 2010 stats...

Ah, I see thanks. I'm eager for the new lawschoolpredictor update - I guess its out tomorrow so I'll be plugging in hypothetical lsat scores.

[jenesaislaw]

The latest 2010 U.S. News employment summary data is now up on LST: --LinkRemoved--

[malfurion]

The latest 2010 U.S. News employment summary data is now up on LST: --LinkRemoved--

Thanks, this is really nice to have in spreadsheet format to be able to play around with sorting/filters/etc. Truly absurd that certain schools actually report a 160K median salary with less than 30% of their grads in the private sector reporting info. I've got more respect for schools like LSU, Akron, Arkansas, and Oklahoma that are willing to show their true numbers (90%+ reporting) even if they aren't impressive.

[bass08]

The latest 2010 U.S. News employment summary data is now up on LST: --LinkRemoved--

Thanks, this is really nice to have in spreadsheet format to be able to play around with sorting/filters/etc. Truly absurd that certain schools actually report a 160K median salary with less than 30% of their grads in the private sector reporting info. I've got more respect for schools like LSU, Akron, Arkansas, and Oklahoma that are willing to show their true numbers (90%+ reporting) even if they aren't impressive.

Yeah it's really great to know both the percent of grads reporting from the private sector and the total percentage of the class reported by salary info. It definitely gives a clearer picture of employment opportunities at various schools, and a lot of this information isn't readily available anywhere else (specifically, the salary information).

It also makes you speculate about how hard the schools care to find out the salary information of graduates. SOme may care more than others about getting more of this information (and reporting it) so that prospective students have more tools with which to base their decision.

[keg411]

The latest 2010 U.S. News employment summary data is now up on LST: --LinkRemoved--

Hey, I noticed one minor thing (and maybe it's something USNWR doesn't provide). If you look at the # and % of grads represented by the salary data, that only includes private sector, since there is no # or % of grads who reported the public/other salary info. So technically you have to get rid of everyone else in those percentile columns unless you can get the information for public/other (unless you already did this and it's not marked clearly -- and really, they should provide the information for public/other too because it will give you a clearer picture of the class than just private sector salaries provide).

Otherwise, everything looks solid.

[bass08]

The latest 2010 U.S. News employment summary data is now up on LST: --LinkRemoved--

Hey, I noticed one minor thing (and maybe it's something USNWR doesn't provide). If you look at the # and % of grads represented by the salary data, that only includes private sector, since there is no # or % of grads who reported the public/other salary info. So technically you have to get rid of everyone else in those percentile columns unless you can get the information for public/other (unless you already did this and it's not marked clearly -- and really, they should provide the information for public/other too because it will give you a clearer picture of the class than just private sector salaries provide).

Otherwise, everything looks solid.

At the end of the columns though the total % of class represented by salary info is provided, so that helps with what you're asking about right?

[keg411]

The latest 2010 U.S. News employment summary data is now up on LST: --LinkRemoved--

Hey, I noticed one minor thing (and maybe it's something USNWR doesn't provide). If you look at the # and % of grads represented by the salary data, that only includes private sector, since there is no # or % of grads who reported the public/other salary info. So technically you have to get rid of everyone else in those percentile columns unless you can get the information for public/other (unless you already did this and it's not marked clearly -- and really, they should provide the information for public/other too because it will give you a clearer picture of the class than just private sector salaries provide).

Otherwise, everything looks solid.

At the end of the columns though the total % of class represented by salary info is provided, so that helps with what you're asking about right?

No, I see that part, but it should say "Total % of Class Represented by PRIVATE salary information" because there is no % of class reporting for ALL salary information if you look at the earlier columns.

I think I'm explaining myself poorly .

[jenesaislaw]

I kind of get what you're saying, I think. Before I respond, do you want to clarify? The point of those columns is to show just how little of the class the salary figures people rely on reflects.

[keg411]

I kind of get what you're saying, I think. Before I respond, do you want to clarify? The point of those columns is to show just how little of the class the salary figures people rely on reflects.

Oh, I get that part .

But that's only "private sector" salary and doesn't include clerkships/gov't salary data, which is there, but there is no % reporting column of that. If you get them, you can combine the two and then get a more accurate picture of which schools report at all. Otherwise, you're leaving out a chunk of some of the classes (i.e. Yale places a HUGE % of the class in clerkships and they would be "left out" of the salary data and look like bad data reporters when... they're Yale).

[jenesaislaw]

I kind of get what you're saying, I think. Before I respond, do you want to clarify? The point of those columns is to show just how little of the class the salary figures people rely on reflects.

Oh, I get that part .

But that's only "private sector" salary and doesn't include clerkships/gov't salary data, which is there, but there is no % reporting column of that. If you get them, you can combine the two and then get a more accurate picture of which schools report at all. Otherwise, you're leaving out a chunk of some of the classes (i.e. Yale places a HUGE % of the class in clerkships and they would be "left out" of the salary data and look like bad data reporters when... they're Yale).

Right, so this is a legit worry. The U.S. News survey does not collect the % reported for public service, though it is a wonder why they don't. As such, the median number doesn't tell us anything more than "one graduate might have made X." And it's only might because if only 2 reported, then the median is really just an average. It's simply dangerous to do anything with the median public service salary (not that you suggested it). It just about follows then that all salary information is subsumed by the private salary quartiles.

Could I add the one word to the column? Yeah, and maybe I will in the future. But for now I think it better serves the purpose of rebutting median salary discussion, which almost never is precise.

What you say about Yale is a crucial thing for people to understand. I wrote a relatively long post about it a while ago, and I should try to find it. I'm going to write a blog post sometime soon that points this problem out too. You really have to look at all numbers to get a feel for the class.

[Fark-o-vision]

I buy all the talk that the unemployed, or the underemployed, are less likely to respond to employment surveys than others, I just wonder why it's true. If my school failed me in a big way, I'd make sure I fucked them every way I could.

[keg411]

I kind of get what you're saying, I think. Before I respond, do you want to clarify? The point of those columns is to show just how little of the class the salary figures people rely on reflects.

Oh, I get that part .

But that's only "private sector" salary and doesn't include clerkships/gov't salary data, which is there, but there is no % reporting column of that. If you get them, you can combine the two and then get a more accurate picture of which schools report at all. Otherwise, you're leaving out a chunk of some of the classes (i.e. Yale places a HUGE % of the class in clerkships and they would be "left out" of the salary data and look like bad data reporters when... they're Yale).

Right, so this is a legit worry. The U.S. News survey does not collect the % reported for public service, though it is a wonder why they don't. As such, the median number doesn't tell us anything more than "one graduate might have made X." And it's only might because if only 2 reported, then the median is really just an average. It's simply dangerous to do anything with the median public service salary (not that you suggested it). It just about follows then that all salary information is subsumed by the private salary quartiles.

Could I add the one word to the column? Yeah, and maybe I will in the future. But for now I think it better serves the purpose of rebutting median salary discussion, which almost never is precise.

What you say about Yale is a crucial thing for people to understand. I wrote a relatively long post about it a while ago, and I should try to find it. I'm going to write a blog post sometime soon that points this problem out too. You really have to look at all numbers to get a feel for the class.

The only reason I suggested to add the word was because I was personally confused and having issues with the numbers. I could see why you wouldn't necessarily want to since it doesn't add to your argument... but you don't want to mislead people .