tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

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20160810
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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby 20160810 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:45 am

If it were me, I'd be at UNC in a heartbeat. I don't see either of these schools as being "better" than the other, but UNC pretty much dominates its market (assuming most Duke grads leave for NYC and DC, which is the case), whereas in Boston you have to compete with about a billion other New England law schools. If you've got no strong preference w/r/t geography, this one is a no-brainer to me.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby najumobi » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:16 am

i think bc gives their students a better shot at getting biglaw. at least for 2009 it 38% percent of bc's class landed biglaw jobs or federal clerkships compared to UNC's 16%. but it's a trade off b/c UNC is going to be at least 45k cheaper (probably even more since you would be able to get in-state tuition for 2nd or 3 yr and COL is much cheaper in Chapel Hill). i would probably take the cheaper option in UNC b/c biglaw still is far from guaranteed coming out of BC.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby fenway » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:27 am

you also have to consider the COL difference between the markets. UNC may place into a number of firms that don't meet the big law cut, but that still offer a decent salary relative to the COL in the area. 160k NYC (and even Boston) isn't always quite as good as it sounds when you factor everything in. so again, it's tenuous to say one school is better than the other

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby Grizz » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:35 am

SoftBoiledLife wrote:If it were me, I'd be at UNC in a heartbeat. I don't see either of these schools as being "better" than the other, but UNC pretty much dominates its market (assuming most Duke grads leave for NYC and DC, which is the case), whereas in Boston you have to compete with about a billion other New England law schools. If you've got no strong preference w/r/t geography, this one is a no-brainer to me.


Wake?

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby 20160810 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:10 pm

rad law wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:If it were me, I'd be at UNC in a heartbeat. I don't see either of these schools as being "better" than the other, but UNC pretty much dominates its market (assuming most Duke grads leave for NYC and DC, which is the case), whereas in Boston you have to compete with about a billion other New England law schools. If you've got no strong preference w/r/t geography, this one is a no-brainer to me.


Wake?

I think UNC is pretty clearly the better of those two schools, but even still competing in a pretty big market with Wake >>> competing against BU, Harvard, Yale, Suffolk and a dozen others.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby TheOcho » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:29 pm

I've been following this thread and can't help but ask what opinions everyone has on people who do pay "sticker" for non T-10-14 schools? It seems like the attitude is that if you aren't going to one of the top schools in the country, you shouldn't be paying sticker. It's my belief that most students don't receive scholarship money (and thus pay "sticker"?). What are your opinions of these people? Are they dooming themselves to an eternity of debt?

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:30 pm

TheOcho wrote:I've been following this thread and can't help but ask what opinions everyone has on people who do pay "sticker" for non T-10-14 schools? It seems like the attitude is that if you aren't going to one of the top schools in the country, you shouldn't be paying sticker. It's my belief that most students don't receive scholarship money (and thus pay "sticker"?). What are your opinions of these people? Are they dooming themselves to an eternity of debt?


Quite possibly. But there are a lot of variables involved.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:30 pm

TheOcho wrote:I've been following this thread and can't help but ask what opinions everyone has on people who do pay "sticker" for non T-10-14 schools? It seems like the attitude is that if you aren't going to one of the top schools in the country, you shouldn't be paying sticker. It's my belief that most students don't receive scholarship money (and thus pay "sticker"?). What are your opinions of these people? Are they dooming themselves to an eternity of debt?


Quite possibly. But there are a lot of variables involved.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby TheOcho » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:39 pm

Interesting. It seems like if this were the case we'd see significantly less people enrolling in law school. Minimally, I would assume T-2 and T-3 schools would see drastically lower enrollment numbers. Is this debt analysis relative to the conditions of the current legal market? Would a favorable legal market extend the prescription beyond the T-14 to maybe the T-30? I'm interested to hear the rationale, and not because I think your wrong, by the way.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby Nom Sawyer » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:46 pm

UNC is by far the better choice in terms of cost/ prospects in comparison to BC as long as you don't have any location preferences.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby ozarkhack » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:49 pm

TheOcho wrote:Interesting. It seems like if this were the case we'd see significantly less people enrolling in law school. Minimally, I would assume T-2 and T-3 schools would see drastically lower enrollment numbers. Is this debt analysis relative to the conditions of the current legal market? Would a favorable legal market extend the prescription beyond the T-14 to maybe the T-30? I'm interested to hear the rationale, and not because I think your wrong, by the way.

Your fatal error is the one in which you assume humans, even those shooting for law school, to be rational creatures.

That said: I'm paying sticker at T30. But I tell myself every night before I go to sleep, and every morning when I awake, and all those everymoments in between, that several of those variables that romo alluded to are at play in my case, and that I am not making a life-ruining decision and that I will be OK. ... You know. B/c I'm special and different, which reminds me of my first point: Us sticker-paying suckers are pretty much irrational gamblers.

And while I'm in here: I vote for UNC as well. The competition surely won't be as varied and intense as it would be coming out of BC. Then again, the legal market's smaller. But then again, the weather is better and COL cheaper.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby tram988 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:52 pm

Nom Sawyer wrote:UNC is by far the better choice in terms of cost/ prospects in comparison to BC as long as you don't have any location preferences.


Really by far in terms of prospects? Even with BC placing 20% more graduates in NLJ250 firms?

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby 20160810 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:57 pm

tram988 wrote:
Nom Sawyer wrote:UNC is by far the better choice in terms of cost/ prospects in comparison to BC as long as you don't have any location preferences.


Really by far in terms of prospects? Even with BC placing 20% more graduates in NLJ250 firms?


Is that ITE though? I'd be curious what the percentage was for c/o 2010. Besides which, NLJ is obviously major-market biased. You'll find more of those in NYC and Boston, places where BC places its grads most, than you will in markets like RDU and Charlotte, even though there are firms that pay very well there and a really low COL.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:59 pm

tram988 wrote:
Nom Sawyer wrote:UNC is by far the better choice in terms of cost/ prospects in comparison to BC as long as you don't have any location preferences.


Really by far in terms of prospects? Even with BC placing 20% more graduates in NLJ250 firms?


I think BC is probably the "better" choice and UNC is the "cheaper" choice. Really, while I generally prefer state > private, OP isn't from NC. Boston has more competition, but it's a bigger legal market overall and you could argue that BU/BC are pretty interchangeable. How either market is doing ITE, I don't know, but I've definitely heard much less about it them than the massacre that is the midwest. The only caution I'd have on UNC is that Charlotte is dead... but then again, RDU is growing.

I wouldn't pay sticker, except maybe at a T13, but I'm cheap :D.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby tram988 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:01 pm

SoftBoiledLife wrote:
tram988 wrote:
Nom Sawyer wrote:UNC is by far the better choice in terms of cost/ prospects in comparison to BC as long as you don't have any location preferences.


Really by far in terms of prospects? Even with BC placing 20% more graduates in NLJ250 firms?


Is that ITE though? I'd be curious what the percentage was for c/o 2010. Besides which, NLJ is obviously major-market biased. You'll find more of those in NYC and Boston, places where BC places its grads most, than you will in markets like RDU and Charlotte, even though there are firms that pay very well there and a really low COL.

I'm not sure about ITE. 2009, the latest data we have, shows 35% in NLJ250 compared with 15% UNC. In 2008 BC placed 45% in NLJ250 firms and I can;t even find any data on UNC from then -- viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206

Also, BC has a greater percentage of federal clerkships than UNC.


While UNC is definitely in an area with little competition, the numbers don't lie. BC is definitely the stronger school, at least with firm placement. This is not to say that such things like COL and sticker price shouldn't be important considerations. Someone receiving in-state at UNC should think about paying sticker at BC ITE.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:14 pm

OP needs to do some soul searching, pick a market that he would prefer, and go from there.

I stand by my comment that NC would (likely) be a better place for him, given his current geographic location. I know a few Midwesterners (including a well-respected prof at my school) who spent some time in Boston and HATED it. They said that Bostonians are notoriously snobbish and uppity and view anything outside of New England to be TTT. Despite his very impressive credentials, the prof felt the need to constantly prove that he wasn't some redneck hick from the Midwest (and I've heard similar stories from other people).

Your mileage may vary and I'm sure the New Englanders are going to jump all over me for saying so, but I personally wouldn't want to live in Boston.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby Grizz » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:28 pm

ozarkhack wrote:
TheOcho wrote:Interesting. It seems like if this were the case we'd see significantly less people enrolling in law school. Minimally, I would assume T-2 and T-3 schools would see drastically lower enrollment numbers. Is this debt analysis relative to the conditions of the current legal market? Would a favorable legal market extend the prescription beyond the T-14 to maybe the T-30? I'm interested to hear the rationale, and not because I think your wrong, by the way.

Your fatal error is the one in which you assume humans, even those shooting for law school, to be rational creatures.

That said: I'm paying sticker at T30. But I tell myself every night before I go to sleep, and every morning when I awake, and all those everymoments in between, that several of those variables that romo alluded to are at play in my case, and that I am not making a life-ruining decision and that I will be OK. ... You know. B/c I'm special and different, which reminds me of my first point: Us sticker-paying suckers are pretty much irrational gamblers.

And while I'm in here: I vote for UNC as well. The competition surely won't be as varied and intense as it would be coming out of BC. Then again, the legal market's smaller. But then again, the weather is better and COL cheaper.


Also, the problem is, if you don't do your research well, rosy employment numbers put out by almost every school make it seem like almost every school is worth sticker.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby boilerjohn94 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:38 pm

rad law wrote:
ozarkhack wrote:
TheOcho wrote:Interesting. It seems like if this were the case we'd see significantly less people enrolling in law school. Minimally, I would assume T-2 and T-3 schools would see drastically lower enrollment numbers. Is this debt analysis relative to the conditions of the current legal market? Would a favorable legal market extend the prescription beyond the T-14 to maybe the T-30? I'm interested to hear the rationale, and not because I think your wrong, by the way.

Your fatal error is the one in which you assume humans, even those shooting for law school, to be rational creatures.

That said: I'm paying sticker at T30. But I tell myself every night before I go to sleep, and every morning when I awake, and all those everymoments in between, that several of those variables that romo alluded to are at play in my case, and that I am not making a life-ruining decision and that I will be OK. ... You know. B/c I'm special and different, which reminds me of my first point: Us sticker-paying suckers are pretty much irrational gamblers.

And while I'm in here: I vote for UNC as well. The competition surely won't be as varied and intense as it would be coming out of BC. Then again, the legal market's smaller. But then again, the weather is better and COL cheaper.


Also, the problem is, if you don't do your research well, rosy employment numbers put out by almost every school make it seem like almost every school is worth sticker.


This information is very interesting for me as I am a prospective student aiming for admission in fall 2011, but haven't taken the LSAT yet, etc. What are good sources to find out "real" employment numbers to give a better indication of prospects than the "rosy employment numbers" that you mention. Thanks for this informative and interesting thread.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:43 pm

boilerjohn94 wrote:This information is very interesting for me as I am a prospective student aiming for admission in fall 2011, but haven't taken the LSAT yet, etc. What are good sources to find out "real" employment numbers to give a better indication of prospects than the "rosy employment numbers" that you mention. Thanks for this informative and interesting thread.


This is a good start:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Also this:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114338

Have you taken the LSAT, boilerjohn?

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby Grizz » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:53 pm

romothesavior wrote:
boilerjohn94 wrote:This information is very interesting for me as I am a prospective student aiming for admission in fall 2011, but haven't taken the LSAT yet, etc. What are good sources to find out "real" employment numbers to give a better indication of prospects than the "rosy employment numbers" that you mention. Thanks for this informative and interesting thread.


This is a good start:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Also this:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114338

Have you taken the LSAT, boilerjohn?


There's also a pretty good thread started by thesealocust in which he explains how NLJ250 works. If you pm'ed him, I'm sure he would be more than happy to send you the link.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby boilerjohn94 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:04 pm

rad law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
boilerjohn94 wrote:This information is very interesting for me as I am a prospective student aiming for admission in fall 2011, but haven't taken the LSAT yet, etc. What are good sources to find out "real" employment numbers to give a better indication of prospects than the "rosy employment numbers" that you mention. Thanks for this informative and interesting thread.


This is a good start:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Also this:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114338

Have you taken the LSAT, boilerjohn?


There's also a pretty good thread started by thesealocust in which he explains how NLJ250 works. If you pm'ed him, I'm sure he would be more than happy to send you the link.


Thanks for the info. I have not taken the LSAT yet. I plan to take it in October because I only recently decided to pursue law school, so there was no way I could have taken it in June. I have been out of undergrad for quite a while and it is a little scary to think about giving up work and going back to school, so I want to make sure I am making an informed decision. Of course, if I bomb the LSAT, then plans will change accordingly.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby fenway » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:07 pm

employment numbers in a general sense or numbers that are going to represent the current climate? cuz' the latter do not (and likely will not) exist, at least in an accurately consolidated form. school's are certainly not going to strive for transparency given the market drop. however, i will continue to argue that both BC and UNC are reasonable long-term choices, even at sticker, assuming you want to practice in either schools' respective region. the whole doomsday outlook is a little exaggerated seeing as the scope of perspective at this time is so limited. moreover, the decision would have been weakly contested even just 5 years ago, so eternal debt should not be the unquestioned projected outcome

with respect to the debate between the two, i think neither side of the opinions offered by this thread has been able to substantiate a compelling argument slating one school over the other. BC's higher NLJ and (slightly) clerkship numbers are equaled out by UNC lessened competition and lower COL and vice versa. The conclusion that one or the other is stronger based on either set of support is tenuous, as it becomes more of a matter of splitting hairs. Choosing between the two should be as easy as looking at the Mason Dixon line in terms of competitive advantage. And if you wanted to get a job in Missouri, I'd think you'd have relatively the same shot coming from either school. searching for a conclusive, universal distinction between BC and UNC is aimless

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:08 pm

Boiler, feel free to PM me if you want to discuss the admissions process. I charge a low, flat rate for consultations.

Kidding... Feel free to PM me.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby scribelaw » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:17 pm

These seem surprisingly even in terms of OCI participation:

--LinkRemoved--

I would go with UNC if you prefer the South and BC if you prefer the Northeast, as Desert Fox said. If you really don't care, then I'd probably go with BC if everything else is equal, just because it seems more solidly a top-30 type law school. But don't pay sticker at either.

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Re: tied at 28: UNC vs. Boston College

Postby Merr » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:32 pm

najumobi wrote:i think bc gives their students a better shot at getting biglaw. at least for 2009 it 38% percent of bc's class landed biglaw jobs or federal clerkships compared to UNC's 16%. but it's a trade off b/c UNC is going to be at least 45k cheaper (probably even more since you would be able to get in-state tuition for 2nd or 3 yr and COL is much cheaper in Chapel Hill). i would probably take the cheaper option in UNC b/c biglaw still is far from guaranteed coming out of BC.


I would not count on getting in-state tuition at UNC after the 1st year. North Carolina has a somewhat tough tuition-residency process.




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