Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

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thexfactor
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Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby thexfactor » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:58 pm

Hey guys, I realize that there is a difference between all 4 schools. Which difference is greater?
Washu-Ucla
UCLA-GT
GT-Mich

Thanks

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World B. Free
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby World B. Free » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:00 pm

I'd say GT - Mich is greatest diff... I personally think Mich is a much better school.

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World B. Free
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby World B. Free » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:20 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
thexfactor wrote:Hey guys, I realize that there is a difference between all 4 schools. Which difference is greater?
Washu-Ucla
UCLA-GT
GT-Mich

Thanks


Mich >>>>>G'Town>UCLA>>>WashU

imho

Mich >>>>>G = UCLA >>>WushU
(minor, insignificant edit)

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thexfactor
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby thexfactor » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:59 pm

hmm interesting. Why do you guys all think there is a bigger diff between Mich-GT than UCLA-Washu

miamiman
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby miamiman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:39 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
thexfactor wrote:hmm interesting. Why do you guys all think there is a bigger diff between Mich-GT than UCLA-Washu

...seriously?

Michigan is an elite law school. Its placement statistics in academia, the NLJ 250, and Article III clerkships are astonishing.

OK, I made this once upon a time. It has a few flaws to it (for example, I'm using all most recent data, which means that NLJ is from one year, and clerkships are from another), so don't trust the hardcore number, but the general flow is close. This isn't necessarily as "public info," folks, just to help answer the question - don't give me too much shit about my methodology.

The schools in question are in bold.

The following list is a ranking of top schools by percentage of graduates who land the best jobs. I'm classifying best jobs as: NLJ 250 Firm jobs, Article III Judicial Clerkships, and Tenure-Track Academic Fellowships.


TIER 1 – HYPER-ELITE LAW SCHOOLS (AROUND 4/5)
1. Yale - 82.1%
2. Stanford - 80.1%

TIER 2 – ELITE LAW SCHOOLS (AROUND 2/3)
3. Harvard - 70.7%
4. Chicago - 67.7%
5. Virginia - 67.5%
6. Columbia - 66.5%
7. Michigan - 66.3%

TIER 3 – EXCELLENT LAW SCHOOLS (BETWEEN 2/3 AND 3/5)
8. Northwestern - 63.2%
9. Penn - 63%
10. Duke - 62.7%
11. Berkeley - 60.1%

TIER 4 – VERY GOOD LAW SCHOOLS (WITHIN 10% OF 1/2)
12. NYU - 57.4%
13. Vanderbilt - 55.5%
14. Cornell - 52.4%
15. Georgetown - 48.4%
16. Texas - 48.2%
17. USC - 47.2%
18. UCLA - 43.2%

TIER 5 – GOOD LAW SCHOOLS (WITHIN 5% OF 1/3)
19. Boston College - 38.0%
20. Notre Dame - 37.8%
21. GW 36.5%
22. Fordham 35.3%
23. Washington University – St. Louis 32.5%
24. Illinois 32.3%
25. Boston University 30.8%

TIER 6 – WELL ABOVE-AVERAGE LAW SCHOOLS (AROUND 1/4)
26. Emory 28.8%
27. Washington & Lee 26.6%
28. William & Mary 26%
29. Wake Forest 25.7%
30. Wisconsin 25.3%
31. SMU 25%
31. Iowa 25%
33. Washington 24.7%
34. Ohio State 24.3%
35. Minnesota 24.1%


In my opinion, these estimates (and take them as such) highlight the general consensus: that certain schools (specifically the top 7 above) simply have much stronger placement power than their competitors dream about. If WUSTL doubled the percentage of their students who land these sorts of jobs, they would still be below Michigan.


what year is that data from?

miamiman
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby miamiman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:45 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Like I noted, it is from different years (thus the problem, and the lack of public TLS release). My methodology was flawed.

2009 NLJ 250 data
2008 Article III Clerkships (including the possibility of double-count)
Leiter's info on professors, divided (I know: shotty, shotty shit).

It was really only for my own purposes, which is why I didn't mind the numbers' margin of error being so large: the bottom line is that the list lined up pretty decently with how I intuitively supposed the placement power of the schools to be. I'm only bringing it up here to illustrate the intuitive difference between the schools OP mentioned, in something vaguely resembling a linear fashion.


Oh. Yah. I think if that got widespread TLS release, you'd have a shitton of CCN trolls breathing down your necks. To be fair, I suspect the gap between CCN and other T10s has been magnified ITE.

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nealric
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby nealric » Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:34 pm

Mich >>>>>G = UCLA >>>WushU
(minor, insignificant edit)


More anti-GULC trolling from TLS :roll:


It's more like Mich >>G>>>UCLA>>>>>>>>>>WUSTL

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Sauer Grapes
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby Sauer Grapes » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:04 pm

....
Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:05 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
thexfactor wrote:Hey guys, I realize that there is a difference between all 4 schools. Which difference is greater?
Washu-Ucla
UCLA-GT
GT-Mich

Thanks


Mich >>>>>G'Town>UCLA>>>WashU

imho



Credited. Michigan is far and away the best school on this list. And UCLA is quite a bit better than WUSTL, but both are primarily regional. UCLA gives students a much better shot at biglaw, however.

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World B. Free
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby World B. Free » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:22 pm

nealric wrote:
Mich >>>>>G = UCLA >>>WushU
(minor, insignificant edit)


More anti-GULC trolling from TLS :roll:


It's more like Mich >>G>>>UCLA>>>>>>>>>>WUSTL

NO. no trolling --- personally I'd rather go to GULC over UCLA, but apart from that I don't think there is a ton of difference bet the two.

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JCougar
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby JCougar » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:35 pm

Awesome list, NR.

This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.

This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.

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Sauer Grapes
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby Sauer Grapes » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:39 am

....
Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:41 am

JCougar wrote:Awesome list, NR.

This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.

This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.


This list confirms that if Michigan admits me off the waitlist, I'll be going.

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JCougar
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby JCougar » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:48 am

Sauer Grapes wrote:
JCougar wrote:Awesome list, NR.

This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.

This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.

Wait... aren't you going to #19? :?


Yes, I am. I'm happy about it, because it's probably the best I could have hoped for. Would have loved to have had 3 extra points on the LSAT to have a shot at Northwestern, but WUSTL was probably as good as I was going to do.

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najumobi
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby najumobi » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:50 am

Sauer Grapes wrote:
JCougar wrote:Awesome list, NR.

This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.

This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.

Wait... aren't you going to #19? :?
he's looking at it objectively :)

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voice of reason
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby voice of reason » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:52 am

Nightrunner, I support your approach. Placement success in the most competitive jobs is clearly one of the best ways to compare law schools, especially top law schools. But one quibble with the terminology is that there is no such thing as a "Tenure-Track Academic Fellowship." I think you mean tenure-track faculty jobs, and you can just call them that. Fellowships are something else.

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JCougar
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby JCougar » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:08 am

voice of reason wrote:Placement success in the most competitive jobs is clearly one of the best ways to compare law schools, especially top law schools.


Yes.

People should pay less attention to a school's reported salary statistics (almost always bullshit) and US News rank, and more attention to placement statistics, which include academia and high-profile clerkships. US News rank, in general, coincides pretty well with employment outcomes, but there's some notable exceptions (e.g. Indiana has no business in the T30, NYU shouldn't be a T5, Vanderbilt is as T14 as C or G, etc.). It's way harder to fudge employment outcomes than it is to report bogus salary medians or game the US News rankings.

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Sauer Grapes
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby Sauer Grapes » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:27 am

....
Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JCougar
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Re: Difference between Washu-UCLA-GT-Mich

Postby JCougar » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:35 am

Sauer Grapes wrote:
JCougar wrote:
Sauer Grapes wrote:
JCougar wrote:Awesome list, NR.

This just confirms my hypothesis that NYU is overrated.

This also confirms the presence of the T18. The gap between US News rankings of 18 and 19 is far greater than the gap between 14 and 15 if you're looking at employment outcomes. T18 doesn't get enough credit -- the same 4 schools have been rated 15-18 for the last decade, yet you still hear about T14 and T20, etc. The real cutoff between good employment prospects and simply better than average employment prospects is the 18th rank.

Wait... aren't you going to #19? :?


Yes, I am. I'm happy about it, because it's probably the best I could have hoped for. Would have loved to have had 3 extra points on the LSAT to have a shot at Northwestern, but WUSTL was probably as good as I was going to do.

Don't worry, I'm not hating. I would have been VERY happy at WUSTL. It's just rare to see someone on here objectively rag on their school.


Just trying to prepare myself for reality. :wink:

I wouldn't call it ragging, though, it's still an incredible school. It's just not up in the elite range yet when it comes to placement. I think it will continue to improve, though.




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