regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

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finalaspects
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regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby finalaspects » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:30 pm

I am from California and would like to return to California after law school. with that stated would UC Davis be a better option then say... ND, Fordham, and WUSTL because of it?

i have heard that employers worry about graduates not wanting to work so far away, but i am from CA and am definitely planning to return.

if there are no scholarships involved (to make things even) and i wanted a job in southern california would UC davis be the best choice? (davis being located in northern california)

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DerrickRose
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby DerrickRose » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:33 pm

don't discount the scholarships, the scholarships are important here.

I would be pretty strongly leaning towards UCD, but I'd like to see the dollar amounts first.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:48 pm

Scholarship information makes sense. From what I understand none of them give you a overwhelming shot at SoCal, though Davis would probably be best on paper. WUSTL seems to be popular on here, but I can't say if it's portable. ND has some cred as a quasi portable degree, but I've never run into with one. I think Fordham is is known as an absolutely regional school, though it's regarded as one of the best.

That said, if returning to California is your number priority by a wide margin (i.e., you have to work in California and won't accept working elsewhere) then I think UC Davis is the clear choice.

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ozarkhack
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby ozarkhack » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Davis.

Places plenty well all across the state. And it by far has more grads working in LA and San Diego than your other schools. Check here. (Just disregard GWU; couldn't get WUSTL w/o also pulling GWU.)

Obviously, some of the difference is due to self-selection. But schooling outside state, you'd likely need good connections (which you may have already) + really good grades for employers to go with you over the local California talent. And if you have good connections and get good grades, then you might as well combine those great qualities with a Davis degree for maximum leverage.

See you in August?

finalaspects
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby finalaspects » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:44 pm

so i'm assuming the ranking difference between wustl and davis is minimal in the sense that CA would choose davis graduates over wustl?

or is this one of those things where outside of t14 it is all regional?

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voice of reason
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby voice of reason » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:46 pm

Davis seems your best bet.

It's good general advice not to go to a regional law school outside the region where you want to work. All law schools outside the top 20 or so should be considered mainly regional. ND and WUSTL are both borderline. If you hate Davis and love WUSTL or ND, then go to WUSTL or ND, but otherwise go to Davis.

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby NayBoer » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:17 pm

For LA, these schools are probably: Davis >>> ND > WUSTL >>>>> Fordham. But I think scholarships are relevant here, because it's not absolutely runaway and Davis isn't super great for LA. Did you apply to Loyola or Pepperdine? Get any money there?

If you want San Diego, then USD. If you want Orange, then UCI.

finalaspects
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby finalaspects » Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:34 pm

NayBoer wrote:For LA, these schools are probably: Davis >>> ND > WUSTL >>>>> Fordham. But I think scholarships are relevant here, because it's not absolutely runaway and Davis isn't super great for LA. Did you apply to Loyola or Pepperdine? Get any money there?

If you want San Diego, then USD. If you want Orange, then UCI.


which school would have the best chances at biglaw/clerkship regardless of city?

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James Bond
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby James Bond » Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:38 pm

finalaspects wrote:
NayBoer wrote:For LA, these schools are probably: Davis >>> ND > WUSTL >>>>> Fordham. But I think scholarships are relevant here, because it's not absolutely runaway and Davis isn't super great for LA. Did you apply to Loyola or Pepperdine? Get any money there?

If you want San Diego, then USD. If you want Orange, then UCI.


which school would have the best chances at biglaw/clerkship regardless of city?


Probably Fordham for Biglaw...but only in NYC

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romothesavior
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:41 pm

James Bond wrote:
finalaspects wrote:
NayBoer wrote:For LA, these schools are probably: Davis >>> ND > WUSTL >>>>> Fordham. But I think scholarships are relevant here, because it's not absolutely runaway and Davis isn't super great for LA. Did you apply to Loyola or Pepperdine? Get any money there?

If you want San Diego, then USD. If you want Orange, then UCI.


which school would have the best chances at biglaw/clerkship regardless of city?


Probably Fordham for Biglaw...but only in NYC


Fordham by a hair. Fordham/WUSTL/ND are within 3% of each other in the latest NLJ biglaw placement, with Davis being about 10% below the bottom of this pack.

finalaspects
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby finalaspects » Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:57 pm

i've been wondering a few more things guys. i'm from CA so i don't know the battle of the mid-east. i have never heard of WUSTL prior to looking into law schools, and although i have heard of Notre Dame here in the west, it is only because of their sports teams and not their academic prestige. question is why do so many people take ND over WUSTL? WUSTL has been ranked 19 consistently for the last 5 years in a roll, cementing them into top 20 while ND has been ~24 for the last 4 years and placed 29th 5 years ago. WUSTL also seems to beat ND at almost every category, peer score, judge/lawyer score, lsat, gpa, etc.

also on second thought i do not mind being stuck in whichever city even 3 years after graduation. i want the best shot at big law/clerkship. and as much as i have read never go to a school expecting to transfer, which school would be the best to transfer to let's say, stanford, berkeley, ucla, or usc from these 4 schools. or does it not matter as long as you're the top 5%?

And Davis has been ranked 45, 36.5 and now 30.5 (i say 30.5 because they are tied with several schools at rank 28 but taking the avg of the ties). even if CA is my goal it seems odd to choose a school that seems to fluctuate widely in the 30-50 while WUSTL stays consistently at 19. maybe im too concerned with the rankings... im not sure. but i know i can only make this decision once.

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby keg411 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:23 pm

finalaspects, I really think you are too concerned with rankings at this point as they mean NOTHING after the T13-14 schools. Everything else is entirely regional - the difference is that the lower down you go, the more regional a school becomes. WUSTL isn't a better school than ND; they are peers despite WUSTL's #19 ranking. And ND is supposedly more "portable" to CA which is why it's recommended over WUSTL (I don't know if this is actually true, but the portability of ND makes some sense because the location is in the middle of nowhere IN and they have to be portable to survive as a law school). And while Davis is lower, it is your best bet by far for anywhere in CA over WUSTL/ND.

Now, OTOH, if you really really really want BigLaw, no matter where it is, you need to go in the retake/reapply group and aim for USC/UCLA as your lowest-ranked options.

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Barolo
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby Barolo » Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:37 pm

Even though we all know that the rankings shouldn't be important, it doesn't stop us from acting as if they are. Yes, WUSTL has been quite consistent -- this is less important than the fact that they've got upward momentum and are generally seen as a school on the rise. There is a lot of speculation as to where it can go (as I have said before, there is not a lot of air at the top), but I do think that the combination of a good dean and a big budget is actually making it a better school (rankings aside). So, in short, there are a lot of really good reasons to like WUSTL but it shouldn't be about the ranking. May not be well known out there, but given connections and strong performance, I'd bet you could get to CA.

Fordham, as others have suggested, is good for NYC, but ONLY NYC. It's a good school and it has a good (not great) place in the home market. It just doesn't seem to be a great choice (save for a generous scholarship) if you really want to get back to CA. And biglaw in NYC is no certain thing out of Fordham -- so the worst case scenario is a job you don't love in a city in which you don't want to live.

ND is a very solid school with a name that carries disproportionate lay prestige. I get the sense that it travels pretty well, in part, due to a rabid alumni base. That said, ND is also culturally...different. I'm sure it's a great education, I'm just not sure it is for everyone. I thought about it briefly but shifted away because I thought I would be a square peg... Again, if you did well at ND, you'd be in a good place to get a good job across a relatively broad swath of the country.

Davis -- it has the advantage of being in CA. I've had one friend who went there and he works in LA. He hates being a lawyer, but I don't think Davis is to blame and it did get him to his choice market. Limited anecdotal sample, but it has placed people in SoCal, no reason it couldn't do it for you. My concern with the UC system these days is money. It's already quite expensive in-state and there are no signs that this will change at any time in the near future.

So, schollys could really change the calculus here, but -- all things being equal -- I'd either go WUSTL (because I think it's the best school of the bunch, by a small margin) or Davis (because it's the geographic winner). Biglaw/clerkship/transfer is all predicated on being at the top of the heap anywhere. If that's the most important goal, go to the school at which you believe you could kick the most ass. Still, don't plan on everything going exactly as planned. Think about the outcomes at median: which is least unpalatable?

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La Grind Date
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby La Grind Date » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:16 pm

keg411 wrote:finalaspects, I really think you are too concerned with rankings at this point


I don't think you are. Rankings beyond the t14 matter to employers. Check the blog of the Hiring Partner or one of the recent threads that was started by a BigLaw associate.

keg411 wrote:as they mean NOTHING after the T13-14 schools. Everything else is entirely regional - the difference is that the lower down you go, the more regional a school becomes.


Keg, where do you get this knowledge from? It seems to me that too many people take the consensus of TLS (a website full of 0Ls, other law students, or young associates) to be an unquestionable truth. Some hiring partners make a distinction between the top 20 and other schools (however, I am not going to search the net for evidence of this now).

Don't get fooled by the TLS consensus.

keg411 wrote:WUSTL isn't a better school than ND;

How do you define "better school"? Perhaps Yale is not a "better school" than ND.

keg411 wrote: they are peers despite WUSTL's #19 ranking.

I am very biased (I've developed school spirit), but I don't think this is true. However, I've not done a lot of research on ND. I wonder if their CSO is as good as Wash U's.


I think Barolo's analysis is pretty good. I would go to Wash U or Davis.

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby NayBoer » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:24 pm

finalaspects wrote:i've been wondering a few more things guys. i'm from CA so i don't know the battle of the mid-east.
So basically Jewish refugees from Europe, especially after World War II, got the UN to divide British Palestine into two states. The Arabs never conceded and there's been fighting ever since.

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby Cal4future » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:26 pm

Regarding ND

I'm not catholic and I have no trouble fitting in. People who don't go to ND because of religious or cultural reasons did not give the school a visit. Or if they did, they did not talk to any of the students about their concerns. ND is actually very accepting. Now, getting through the winters is another matter completely.

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby keg411 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:34 pm

Let's just say I know a LOT of people in all different aspects the legal field and leave it at that (people that run from current law students to a BigLaw partner). If you don't go to a national school (ie. the T14 or so), everything else is regional. How strong a school is within it's region, is, of course, also a factor based on rankings. The lower you go, the smaller the region is.

I've read the hiring partner thread. From the gist I got is that "Top 20" generally means the top schools. It isn't some type of hard cut-off that magically includes WUSTL for firms outside of the region. Yes, rankings "matter", but you have to take them in context of someone's goals and where they want to live/work as well.

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby finalaspects » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:38 pm

NayBoer wrote:
finalaspects wrote:i've been wondering a few more things guys. i'm from CA so i don't know the battle of the mid-east.
So basically Jewish refugees from Europe, especially after World War II, got the UN to divide British Palestine into two states. The Arabs never conceded and there's been fighting ever since.


:lol:

finalaspects
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby finalaspects » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:41 pm

keg411 wrote:Let's just say I know a LOT of people in all different aspects the legal field and leave it at that (people that run from current law students to a BigLaw partner). If you don't go to a national school (ie. the T14 or so), everything else is regional. How strong a school is within it's region, is, of course, also a factor based on rankings. The lower you go, the smaller the region is.

I've read the hiring partner thread. From the gist I got is that "Top 20" generally means the top schools. It isn't some type of hard cut-off that magically includes WUSTL for firms outside of the region. Yes, rankings "matter", but you have to take them in context of someone's goals and where they want to live/work as well.


can i get a link to this thread?

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby keg411 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:51 pm

finalaspects wrote:
keg411 wrote:Let's just say I know a LOT of people in all different aspects the legal field and leave it at that (people that run from current law students to a BigLaw partner). If you don't go to a national school (ie. the T14 or so), everything else is regional. How strong a school is within it's region, is, of course, also a factor based on rankings. The lower you go, the smaller the region is.

I've read the hiring partner thread. From the gist I got is that "Top 20" generally means the top schools. It isn't some type of hard cut-off that magically includes WUSTL for firms outside of the region. Yes, rankings "matter", but you have to take them in context of someone's goals and where they want to live/work as well.


can i get a link to this thread?


It's in the legal employment section. I'm pretty sure it's from a couple of months ago, so if you go back a few pages, you should find it.

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby La Grind Date » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:52 pm

keg411 wrote:Let's just say I know a LOT of people in all different aspects the legal field and leave it at that (people that run from current law students to a BigLaw partner). If you don't go to a national school (ie. the T14 or so), everything else is regional. How strong a school is within it's region, is, of course, also a factor based on rankings. The lower you go, the smaller the region is.


I think I understand what you're saying.

Still, it's reductive to divide "national" schools from "regional" ones. There is so much that this division misses.

If a school places well in every part of the country except the Pacific Northwest, you might label it as a "regional" school. If a school places well only in Pittsburgh, both of us would label it as a "regional" school. Obviously, there is a big difference between the two schools!

Wash U may not have placed many graduates in all corners of the US, but it does place many graduates in many regions. To call it either a "regional" or "national" school betrays that reality.
Last edited by La Grind Date on Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby La Grind Date » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:54 pm

finalaspects wrote:
keg411 wrote:Let's just say I know a LOT of people in all different aspects the legal field and leave it at that (people that run from current law students to a BigLaw partner). If you don't go to a national school (ie. the T14 or so), everything else is regional. How strong a school is within it's region, is, of course, also a factor based on rankings. The lower you go, the smaller the region is.

I've read the hiring partner thread. From the gist I got is that "Top 20" generally means the top schools. It isn't some type of hard cut-off that magically includes WUSTL for firms outside of the region. Yes, rankings "matter", but you have to take them in context of someone's goals and where they want to live/work as well.


can i get a link to this thread?


i wasn't referring to a thread. check out this blog: http://hiringpartneradvice.blogspot.com/

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby Barolo » Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:09 pm

La Grind Date wrote:
keg411 wrote:Let's just say I know a LOT of people in all different aspects the legal field and leave it at that (people that run from current law students to a BigLaw partner). If you don't go to a national school (ie. the T14 or so), everything else is regional. How strong a school is within it's region, is, of course, also a factor based on rankings. The lower you go, the smaller the region is.


I think I understand what you're saying.

Still, it's reductive to divide "national" schools from "regional" ones. There is so much that this division misses.

If a school places well in every part of the country except the Pacific Northwest, you might label it as a "regional" school. If a school places well only in "Pittsburgh," both of us would label it as a "regional" school. Obviously, there is a big difference between the two schools!

Wash U may not have placed many graduates in all corners of the US, but it does place many graduates in many regions. To call it either a "regional" or "national" school betrays that reality.



A fine point. There are many schools that become self-selecting regionals -- thinking BU/BC here -- it's not that they don't have legs, the students just seem not to flex them. And then there is the distinction between, say Emory and UGA, both good schools, but UGA is very regional (almost all stay in Georgia) versus Emory (where most leave Georgia). I wouldn't argue that Emory is a true national school, but it's not really a regional school -- maybe "regions-al". I think the key is that there are different degrees of regionality and it starts a lot sooner than T-14.

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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby keg411 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:29 pm

La Grind Date wrote:
keg411 wrote:Let's just say I know a LOT of people in all different aspects the legal field and leave it at that (people that run from current law students to a BigLaw partner). If you don't go to a national school (ie. the T14 or so), everything else is regional. How strong a school is within it's region, is, of course, also a factor based on rankings. The lower you go, the smaller the region is.


I think I understand what you're saying.

Still, it's reductive to divide "national" schools from "regional" ones. There is so much that this division misses.

If a school places well in every part of the country except the Pacific Northwest, you might label it as a "regional" school. If a school places well only in "Pittsburgh," both of us would label it as a "regional" school. Obviously, there is a big difference between the two schools!

Wash U may not have placed many graduates in all corners of the US, but it does place many graduates in many regions. To call it either a "regional" or "national" school betrays that reality.


Obviously, "regional" can vary. But I think you're giving too much credit to self-selection and you're letting your own school's bias show. Technically you can go to law school almost any school and try to get a job in another market. Many schools have their students working all over the place. But I still would say they are mostly regional.

WUSTL is mostly a midwest school. You're not going to be tied to MO or anything, but trying to leave the Midwest is going to take a lot more work than if you go to school in your choice region. I don't understand why people would make it extra-hard on themselves to get a job by going outside region ITE. Why not make it as easy as possible on yourself? Why deal with the extra stress?

Anyway, sorry to derail OP. Here are the NALP links because they'll give you an idea of what firms recruit at the schools you are looking at. Obviously it doesn't mean they all hire there, but at least it's a rough estimate and will at least demonstrate some what I'm talking about in terms of "regionality" (by school, alphabetically):

UC Davis:
--LinkRemoved--

Fordham:
--LinkRemoved--

ND:
--LinkRemoved--

WUSTL:
--LinkRemoved--

finalaspects
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Re: regional CA - Davis, ND, Fordham WUSTL

Postby finalaspects » Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:40 pm

keg411 wrote:
La Grind Date wrote:
keg411 wrote:Let's just say I know a LOT of people in all different aspects the legal field and leave it at that (people that run from current law students to a BigLaw partner). If you don't go to a national school (ie. the T14 or so), everything else is regional. How strong a school is within it's region, is, of course, also a factor based on rankings. The lower you go, the smaller the region is.


I think I understand what you're saying.

Still, it's reductive to divide "national" schools from "regional" ones. There is so much that this division misses.

If a school places well in every part of the country except the Pacific Northwest, you might label it as a "regional" school. If a school places well only in "Pittsburgh," both of us would label it as a "regional" school. Obviously, there is a big difference between the two schools!

Wash U may not have placed many graduates in all corners of the US, but it does place many graduates in many regions. To call it either a "regional" or "national" school betrays that reality.


Obviously, "regional" can vary. But I think you're giving too much credit to self-selection and you're letting your own school's bias show. Technically you can go to law school almost any school and try to get a job in another market. Many schools have their students working all over the place. But I still would say they are mostly regional.

WUSTL is mostly a midwest school. You're not going to be tied to MO or anything, but trying to leave the Midwest is going to take a lot more work than if you go to school in your choice region. I don't understand why people would make it extra-hard on themselves to get a job by going outside region ITE. Why not make it as easy as possible on yourself? Why deal with the extra stress?

Anyway, sorry to derail OP. Here are the NALP links because they'll give you an idea of what firms recruit at the schools you are looking at. Obviously it doesn't mean they all hire there, but at least it's a rough estimate and will at least demonstrate some what I'm talking about in terms of "regionality" (by school, alphabetically):

UC Davis:
--LinkRemoved--

Fordham:
--LinkRemoved--

ND:
--LinkRemoved--

WUSTL:
--LinkRemoved--


im just worried that most big law firms have that cut off at top 20-25. which WUSTL falls under but not davis... of course it would have been nice to be accepted to a t14 but i have not been.




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