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% of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:38 pm
by myrockyourrock911
ITE, what % of students from Michigan, Virginia, and Penn do you think are shut out of biglaw/competitive pi/gov and are forced to work for small firms?
I've read on here that once you get your first job, you can't move up to something more prestigious/competitive, so is it true that if you take a small firm job but later want to do biglaw or PI/gov, you're screwed?

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:40 pm
by Unitas
myrockyourrock911 wrote:ITE, what % of students from Michigan, Virginia, and Penn do you think are shut out of biglaw/competitive pi/gov and are forced to work for small firms?
I've read on here that once you get your first job, you can't move up to something more prestigious/competitive, so is it true that if you take a small firm job but later want to do biglaw or PI/gov, you're screwed?


Haha, you should be asking can't find a job, not working a decent legal job....

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:42 pm
by rayiner
75% or so.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:51 pm
by romothesavior
rayiner wrote:75% or so.


You really think it is that high? A student at 30-40% is most likely to get shut out of biglaw, competitive PI, or government work?

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:56 pm
by rayiner
romothesavior wrote:
rayiner wrote:75% or so.


You really think it is that high? A student at 30-40% is most likely to get shut out of biglaw, competitive PI, or government work?


It's bad out there man.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:59 pm
by miamiman
I thought ray was exaggerating, too.
:(

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:06 pm
by romothesavior
rayiner wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
rayiner wrote:75% or so.


You really think it is that high? A student at 30-40% is most likely to get shut out of biglaw, competitive PI, or government work?


It's bad out there man.


I know it is bad out there, but this still seems high. But you are the numbers guy, so I'll defer to you.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:08 pm
by olanderp
.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:08 pm
by matchesmalone
Look at the NALP top 100 schools list (I think that's what it's called). I would post a link, but I'm on my blackberry. From what I remember, less than half of their class placed in the top 250 firms.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:16 pm
by RVP11
Duke numbers showed ~40% of their class of 2011 getting V100 SAs for this summer.

The V100 is mostly major market BigLaw.

Adding in regional BigLaw/MidLaw, I'd estimate that at least 50% of MVP people are getting BigLaw/MidLaw/fedgov/etc. or something that's not "shitlaw." But realize this is down from 90+% in the good days.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:17 pm
by myrockyourrock911
If you have ties to a secondary, it will help a lot. I know people around median who landed SA positions that would pay over 120k in secondary markets, but they mailed secondaries themselves. Just don't be lazy ITE.

What do you make of the latest NLJ #'s suggesting it's about 50% for each?
Can anybody address my second question in my original post?

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:19 pm
by RVP11
matchesmalone wrote:Look at the NALP top 100 schools list (I think that's what it's called). I would post a link, but I'm on my blackberry. From what I remember, less than half of their class placed in the top 250 firms.


This is an uneducated contribution. Zero credit.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:19 pm
by RVP11
miamiman wrote:I thought ray was exaggerating, too.
:(


He is.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:20 pm
by rayiner
miamiman wrote:I thought ray was exaggerating, too.
:(


God, people. I'm clearly trolling.

Look, nobody has any data. I pulled the 25% figure out of my ass, but it's just as likely to be correct as any other number you're going to hear. We have somewhat believable numbers for Columbia and NYU and apparently Duke, but that's about it (see RV11's post).

Panicking isn't going to help you. If you're a rising 2L, then you should be posting grades and soliciting advice on where to bid. If you're a 0L, anything you hear on the board today will be completely obsolete in a year when you're own OCI is coming up.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:45 pm
by DerrickRose
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Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:59 pm
by Mr. Matlock
Do people feel it's worse than last year????

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:11 pm
by romothesavior
Mr. Matlock wrote:Do people feel it's worse than last year????

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843


What class is represented by those numbers? c/o 2008?

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:13 pm
by Mr. Matlock
romothesavior wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:Do people feel it's worse than last year????

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843


What class is represented by those numbers? c/o 2008?

2009 graduates.

Here's the ATL breakdown on it back from February:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law ... w=comments

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:19 pm
by romothesavior
Mr. Matlock wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:Do people feel it's worse than last year????

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843


What class is represented by those numbers? c/o 2008?

2009 graduates.

Here's the ATL breakdown on it back from February:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law ... w=comments


Yeah then I'm curious too. People recently have been saying that T20ish-T30 schools will be less than 10% biglaw this year, which would be less than half of what the class of 2009 saw. And some T10s in that NLJ data were around 50% last year. I realized the data isn't always accurate, but I really don't know what to think... I can't see the c/o 2011 having worse numbers than the c/o 2009.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:23 pm
by underachiever
I will say that head hunters are calling a lot again looking for laterals and every recruiting person i have talked to (8-12 from V100 firms) has privately said recruiting will be up from last year (b/t 5-15%)

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:29 pm
by Mr. Matlock
romothesavior wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:Do people feel it's worse than last year????

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843


What class is represented by those numbers? c/o 2008?

2009 graduates.

Here's the ATL breakdown on it back from February:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law ... w=comments


Yeah then I'm curious too. People recently have been saying that T20ish-T30 schools will be less than 10% biglaw this year, which would be less than half of what the class of 2009 saw. And some T10s in that NLJ data were around 50% last year. I realized the data isn't always accurate, but I really don't know what to think... I can't see the c/o 2011 having worse numbers than the c/o 2009.


It's my understanding that these #'s are directly from the firms as opposed to the schools. That being so, the good news for WUSL is/was that it's still on par with its NLJ250 #'s from back in 2005.

Keep in mind I'm TTT. So take this info with a grain of salt. :mrgreen:

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:46 pm
by DerrickRose
romothesavior wrote:Yeah then I'm curious too. People recently have been saying that T20ish-T30 schools will be less than 10% biglaw this year, which would be less than half of what the class of 2009 saw. And some T10s in that NLJ data were around 50% last year. I realized the data isn't always accurate, but I really don't know what to think... I can't see the c/o 2011 having worse numbers than the c/o 2009.


We need to get our "class of" numbers straight here. Because the entering class of 2007 was the OCI class of 2008 who became the SA class of 2009 who are now the graduating class of 2010. It gets confusing.

My vote is that we use the OCI date as the date of record, because that is ground zero for whether a student is into or out of Biglaw.

The most recent numbers are for the OCI class of 2007, before any of the economic stuff hit, but they did their SA's in the summer of 08 and were hammered with no-offers and deferrals.

Frankly, the OCI class of 07's numbers are probably going to be the least reliable because deferrals have wrought havoc on the concept of being "employed" by a Biglaw firm.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:49 pm
by romothesavior
DerrickRose wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Yeah then I'm curious too. People recently have been saying that T20ish-T30 schools will be less than 10% biglaw this year, which would be less than half of what the class of 2009 saw. And some T10s in that NLJ data were around 50% last year. I realized the data isn't always accurate, but I really don't know what to think... I can't see the c/o 2011 having worse numbers than the c/o 2009.


We need to get our "class of" numbers straight here. Because the entering class of 2007 was the OCI class of 2008 who became the SA class of 2009 who are now the graduating class of 2010. It gets confusing.

My vote is that we use the OCI date as the date of record, because that is ground zero for whether a student is into or out of Biglaw.

The most recent numbers are for the OCI class of 2007, before any of the economic stuff hit, but they did their SA's in the summer of 08 and were hammered with no-offers and deferrals.

Frankly, the OCI class of 07's numbers are probably going to be the least reliable because deferrals have wrought havoc on the concept of being "employed" by a Biglaw firm.


True, the deferrals may skew the data, but the no-offers wouldn't. I guess you'll have to report back to us in a few months and let us know how things go at UIUC.

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:09 pm
by Core
When is data about offers made at OCI usually available?

Re: % of Michigan, Virginia, and Penn grads getting the shaft?

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:43 pm
by rando
romothesavior wrote:
Yeah then I'm curious too. People recently have been saying that T20ish-T30 schools will be less than 10% biglaw this year, which would be less than half of what the class of 2009 saw. And some T10s in that NLJ data were around 50% last year. I realized the data isn't always accurate, but I really don't know what to think... I can't see the c/o 2011 having worse numbers than the c/o 2009.


It isn't good at T20-30 but it certainly isn't less than 10%. At least from my first hand experience.