GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

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mel.t
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GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby mel.t » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:05 am

Opinions? Insight?

I'm looking into doing Public Interest or International Law. I got into GGU's Honors Lawyering Program but USF has more clinics and study abroad programs. I really want hands on experience. Also, I'm looking to get a dual JD/MBA too. Does anyone know if doing part time will hinder that?

Help me figure this out please. I have until Thursday 4:00pm.

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Regionality
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby Regionality » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:07 am

Is GGU Golden Gate U?

I think people need more info.

How much is the scholarship? What are its stipulations?

Forget about international law, it's really not gonna happen from Golden Gate. Is USF sticker?

I think you will hear from many people here that neither of these options are particularly good for you. Did you max out your LSAT score? What were your numbers? Can you retake/reapply?

USF at sticker is not a wise move, and Golden Gate at any price is probably unwise, but anything less than a full ride is definitely risky considering they are literally last in the pecking order of bay area law schools... :(

mel.t
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby mel.t » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:19 am

Sorry, yes GGU is Golden Gate University. They offered me $10K a year. And USF is sticker I'm assuming since I got in off the waitlist.

I took the LSAT twice. My best being 153. My GPA was 3.51. I know it's not great but I don't know if I have the time/funds to take time off to study for it. I'm ready to go to law school this fall. I don't know if I can wait another year. =\

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Regionality
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby Regionality » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:33 am

mel.t wrote:Sorry, yes GGU is Golden Gate University. They offered me $10K a year. And USF is sticker I'm assuming since I got in off the waitlist.

I took the LSAT twice. My best being 153. My GPA was 3.51. I know it's not great but I don't know if I have the time/funds to take time off to study for it. I'm ready to go to law school this fall. I don't know if I can wait another year. =\


I think there are many, many folks on these blogs, myself included, who would question your logic regarding "not having the funds" to pursue a higher LSAT score. You are about to take out at least 150k in loans to pay for these schools, neither of which will likely get you a job that can pay off your debt.

If you truly are maxed out on your LSAT and are dead-set going to law school, go to USF. 10k/yr at GGU is not nearly enough to make up for its cruddy reputation and lack of good job prospects. At least USF has a solid reputation in the bay area.

Were there any stips w/ your GGU scholly?

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Regionality
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby Regionality » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:34 am

mel.t wrote:Sorry, yes GGU is Golden Gate University. They offered me $10K a year. And USF is sticker I'm assuming since I got in off the waitlist.

I took the LSAT twice. My best being 153. My GPA was 3.51. I know it's not great but I don't know if I have the time/funds to take time off to study for it. I'm ready to go to law school this fall. I don't know if I can wait another year. =\


Wait, DID you study seriously for you LSAT in the first place?

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bk1
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby bk1 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:45 am

mel.t wrote:Sorry, yes GGU is Golden Gate University. They offered me $10K a year. And USF is sticker I'm assuming since I got in off the waitlist.

I took the LSAT twice. My best being 153. My GPA was 3.51. I know it's not great but I don't know if I have the time/funds to take time off to study for it. I'm ready to go to law school this fall. I don't know if I can wait another year. =\


You can make time to study, plenty of people have studied for the LSAT on top of a 40+ hour work week or when going to school and working part time. You will have to cut back on free time but unless you are working 80+ hour weeks, I'm pretty sure there is time to study for the LSAT. And, as Regionality noted, the "funds" is not really an issue. While I am not saying that LSAT study materials are "cheap," they are still nothing compared to the 6 figure debt of law school and you are only handicapping yourself by not getting the highest LSAT possible. Thus, you should do whatever it takes to get all the materials you need to study properly (the PowerScore Bibles plus all 60 or so PT's is only a few hundred dollars).

To be honest, while you may not want to wait another year, you can wait another year.The way you described the LSAT makes it seem like you did not put enough time in and/or did not study properly for the first 2. Retaking and reapplying is going to give a good shot at better schools than USF/GGU which will help your employment prospects drastically. I understand not wanting to wait have to spend all the time studying again for the LSAT and to wait a year when you had planned to go to law school this year, I am currently in the retake/reapply boat as well. But it is going to serve you well in the long run and I highly recommend you study your ass off for the preferably October or at least December LSAT and reapply for the next cycle.

mel.t
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby mel.t » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:07 pm

Regionality wrote:
mel.t wrote:Sorry, yes GGU is Golden Gate University. They offered me $10K a year. And USF is sticker I'm assuming since I got in off the waitlist.

I took the LSAT twice. My best being 153. My GPA was 3.51. I know it's not great but I don't know if I have the time/funds to take time off to study for it. I'm ready to go to law school this fall. I don't know if I can wait another year. =\


Wait, DID you study seriously for you LSAT in the first place?


Yes. I took two Testmasters courses. The first one was so terrible, Testmasters gave me the second one for free. I improved but not by as much as I had hoped. I took off 6 months to study for it.

Grad09
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby Grad09 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:32 pm

I understand your desire to get to law school ASAP. I would be the same way. Since I looked into both these schools myself, I will tell you honestly that you are taking a risk with either of them. It depends on your goals and your mindset during law school.

One of the attorneys at the firm I work for now graduated from USF not too long ago, 10 years give or take. He was ranked 5th in his class, started at Bingham McCutchen, and now lives a comfortable life working at this small firm.

I have also read brochures and other print from GGU- They send students to DLA Piper, they send clerks to the 9th Circuit, etc.

It is possible to be really successful, although the chances are slim. But, nobody ever made it to top 5 in their class by doubting themselves or their chances. If you have the drive and are ready to deal with the consequences of 1.5k bills each month after you graduate, then go for it. I'm sure you can study more for the LSAT, and it would be a really smart move, but I know how much it sucks. I took it 3 times.

IMO you should go to USF at sticker. The GGU HLP is really good for making connections, but 10K is not enough. If you got 25K a year or more, I might lean to GGU. If you do well enough at USF after 1L, employment and transfer opportunities are more plentiful. If your PT at USF, you could hold a job that will mitigate some of your school expenses. Thats a HUGE plus.

mel.t
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby mel.t » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:43 pm

Grad09 wrote:I understand your desire to get to law school ASAP. I would be the same way. Since I looked into both these schools myself, I will tell you honestly that you are taking a risk with either of them. It depends on your goals and your mindset during law school.

One of the attorneys at the firm I work for now graduated from USF not too long ago, 10 years give or take. He was ranked 5th in his class, started at Bingham McCutchen, and now lives a comfortable life working at this small firm.

I have also read brochures and other print from GGU- They send students to DLA Piper, they send clerks to the 9th Circuit, etc.

It is possible to be really successful, although the chances are slim. But, nobody ever made it to top 5 in their class by doubting themselves or their chances. If you have the drive and are ready to deal with the consequences of 1.5k bills each month after you graduate, then go for it. I'm sure you can study more for the LSAT, and it would be a really smart move, but I know how much it sucks. I took it 3 times.

IMO you should go to USF at sticker. The GGU HLP is really good for making connections, but 10K is not enough. If you got 25K a year or more, I might lean to GGU. If you do well enough at USF after 1L, employment and transfer opportunities are more plentiful. If your PT at USF, you could hold a job that will mitigate some of your school expenses. Thats a HUGE plus.


I'm just worried that by being part time I would loose some of the opportunities that full time students have. Does anyone know if I will still be able to study abroad?

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nealric
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby nealric » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:22 pm

They send students to DLA Piper


Sorry, just had to chime in here. DLA Piper is generally considered the worst big firm one could possibly start at. Not a good example of great job success.

To the OP: I would take USF in a heartbeat. Working will mitigate debt far more than the GGU scholarship and will give you valuable experience.

lawchampion
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby lawchampion » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:01 pm

What's wrong with USF? I am in a similar situation. 10$ at 4th tier and 0$ at USF. So far I was convinced that USF is a solid choice, but some of you guys clearly do not think so. Could someone elaborate on this?

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bk1
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby bk1 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:05 pm

lawchampion wrote:What's wrong with the USF? I am in a similar situation. 10$ at 4th tier and 0$ at USF. So far I was convinced that USF is a solid choice, but some of you guys clearly do not think so. Could someone elaborate on this?


Expensive (almost 60k/year in total COA) and poor placement in a market competing with much stronger schools (T14's/UC's/etc).

lawchampion
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby lawchampion » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:07 pm

bk1 wrote:
lawchampion wrote:What's wrong with the USF? I am in a similar situation. 10$ at 4th tier and 0$ at USF. So far I was convinced that USF is a solid choice, but some of you guys clearly do not think so. Could someone elaborate on this?


Expensive (almost 60k/year in total COA) and poor placement in a market competing with much stronger schools (T14's/UC's/etc).

So you would recommend going to t14, or go to t2-t4 only at half cost or less????

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bk1
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby bk1 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:23 pm

lawchampion wrote:So you would recommend going to t14, or go to t2-t4 only at half cost or less????


Depends on way too many factors to give a definitive answer but I'll list through some of the possibilities. Let's assume T14 at sticker, T2-T4 on a full ride, no preference of location, desiring best shot at a job. This is what I would choose based on this criteria and not necessarily what is right for everyone.

T14 vs T2-T4 in a Crowded Market (Chicago-Kent/DePaul/USF/GGU/Brooklyn/St. John's/etc): T14. The bottom schools in a market have a tough time placing comparatively when they are behind all the T14's and strong regional schools (Fordham/GW/UIUC/WUSTL/etc) making even a full ride risky. Plus the T14's can fall back on national portability that the T2-T4's cannot.

T14 vs T2-T4 Flagship alone in its Market (UNLV/UMaine/UConn/etc): Might give the edge to the T2/T4 if you don't mind working in that state. Won't face much competition from grads coming from outside except the few who went to school out of state and are trying to find employment back in that state. This is really a toss up and I feel hinges on debt-aversion and whether one would mind living in that state for a long time. Personally I prefer the larger markets due to their location and would still take the T14, but an argument could be made for taking the T2-T4 on a full ride.


For the most part, unless you are seriously debt-averse or are going to a school that dominates its market and you want to be employed in that market, the T14 seems like the stronger call over most T2-T4's on a full ride.

lawchampion
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby lawchampion » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:02 am

bk1 wrote:
lawchampion wrote:So you would recommend going to t14, or go to t2-t4 only at half cost or less????


Depends on way too many factors to give a definitive answer but I'll list through some of the possibilities. Let's assume T14 at sticker, T2-T4 on a full ride, no preference of location, desiring best shot at a job. This is what I would choose based on this criteria and not necessarily what is right for everyone.

T14 vs T2-T4 in a Crowded Market (Chicago-Kent/DePaul/USF/GGU/Brooklyn/St. John's/etc): T14. The bottom schools in a market have a tough time placing comparatively when they are behind all the T14's and strong regional schools (Fordham/GW/UIUC/WUSTL/etc) making even a full ride risky. Plus the T14's can fall back on national portability that the T2-T4's cannot.

T14 vs T2-T4 Flagship alone in its Market (UNLV/UMaine/UConn/etc): Might give the edge to the T2/T4 if you don't mind working in that state. Won't face much competition from grads coming from outside except the few who went to school out of state and are trying to find employment back in that state. This is really a toss up and I feel hinges on debt-aversion and whether one would mind living in that state for a long time. Personally I prefer the larger markets due to their location and would still take the T14, but an argument could be made for taking the T2-T4 on a full ride.


For the most part, unless you are seriously debt-averse or are going to a school that dominates its market and you want to be employed in that market, the T14 seems like the stronger call over most T2-T4's on a full ride.


Thanks for the input. Very informative and conclusive. However my situation is a bit different. I don't have an option of attending T14, the only thing I have is $10 for t4 (Cal Western) and 0$ for T2 (USF). Any idea what to do?

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bk1
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am

lawchampion wrote:Thanks for the input. Very informative and conclusive. However my situation is a bit different. I don't have an option of attending T14, the only thing I have is $10 for t4 (Cal Western) and 0$ for T2 (USF). Any idea what to do?


Have you taken the LSAT 3 times already?

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Grizz
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby Grizz » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:27 am

Grad09 wrote:If you have the drive and are ready to deal with the consequences of 1.5k bills each month after you graduate with the large possibility of being marginally employed from either of these schools, then [strike]go for it[/strike] prepare for financial ruin.


FTFY

lawchampion
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby lawchampion » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:48 am

bk1 wrote:
lawchampion wrote:Thanks for the input. Very informative and conclusive. However my situation is a bit different. I don't have an option of attending T14, the only thing I have is $10 for t4 (Cal Western) and 0$ for T2 (USF). Any idea what to do?


Have you taken the LSAT 3 times already?

Unfortunately i did

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bk1
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:09 pm

lawchampion wrote:Unfortunately i did


If you have preference for northern or southern CA, pick the school in that area. If you are debt-averse (and the stips on the scholly are minimal or nonexistent) then pick Cal Western. If you prefer marginally better prospects then pick USF.

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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm

Everyone and their cousin will tell you to take more time off and retake or reconsider law school altogether (it not for everyone). If you are dead set on these two schools I would go with USF. The difference between taking out 120K and 150K isn;t very large since you will be using IBR either way but USF at least has SOME options (although not great) while GGU is basically a 3 year trip to either the unemployment line or a 32K/year shitlaw job where you'll be worked 70-80 weeks with no chance at promotions.

lawchampion
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Re: GGU w/Scholarship vs. USF PT

Postby lawchampion » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:30 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:Everyone and their cousin will tell you to take more time off and retake or reconsider law school altogether (it not for everyone). If you are dead set on these two schools I would go with USF. The difference between taking out 120K and 150K isn;t very large since you will be using IBR either way but USF at least has SOME options (although not great) while GGU is basically a 3 year trip to either the unemployment line or a 32K/year shitlaw job where you'll be worked 70-80 weeks with no chance at promotions.

USF makes much more sense for me than Cal Western. First of all, lower academic attrition, 2 tier vs 4 tier, tuition is slightly less than GGU or Cal Western, better regional reputation, what else?




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