Part-Time Programs

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curly3426
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Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Mon May 31, 2010 4:49 pm

Do part-time programs hurt your chance of getting a good job at a big firm?

Does anyone know if this also applies to Cardozo part-time program which is unlike any other?

Thane Messinger
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby Thane Messinger » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:33 am

curly3426 wrote:Do part-time programs hurt your chance of getting a good job at a big firm?

Does anyone know if this also applies to Cardozo part-time program which is unlike any other?



There are a few exceptions (Suffolk in Boston is another), but, in general, the answer is Yes, it will hurt your chances. More precisely, if by "good job" you mean a big law job or something close to it, very, very few such jobs are offered to graduates of part-time programs. The reasons are many, and this is not a statement of the qualities of part-time students--but these are very different creatures. Most part-time students are situated for a different career path, which in many cases is considerably more comfortable and not at all as deprived as the above might indicate. Among other reasons is that the part-time student often comes with an array of knowledge and skills from a prior career (and, of course, contacts and value from those years).

Before embarking on a part-time legal education, if a specific job (or type of job) is a concern, read the Office of Career Services information on who is interviewing (firms, agencies, judges) at that law school, and talk with some 3-4Ls.

I hope this helps,

Thane.

--
Thane Messinger
Author of:
Law School: Getting In, Getting Good, Getting the Gold
The Young Lawyer's Jungle Book: A Survival Guide

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:11 am

do you have any info on Cardozo or Fordham - have been looking can't find much

yabbadabbado
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby yabbadabbado » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:22 am

If you go to Cardozo, you are likely not going to land at a big firm anyway, so it's moot point unless you are near the top of the class.

Fordham used to place about 1/4 to 1/3 of their class into big firms when the economy was really booming, but that's not the case now.

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:24 am

but both schools are good at getting their students well-paying jobs?

I have started to hear bad things about Cardozo's employment placement, have you heard anything?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:26 am

curly3426 wrote:do you have any info on Cardozo or Fordham - have been looking can't find much


It's a bit different here, since so many people switch over. I have confirmation that (former) part time students can and do get V10 jobs. This isn't to say it's common; you would have to be at the very top of our class, but firms do look at PT students who have the grades.

We used to place around top third. Some years it was better than that (43.7% in 2008, according to the NLJ research), but now we are living in uncertain times, and hoping things get better.

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:30 am

Thanks!
Last edited by curly3426 on Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:36 am

curly3426 wrote:the we you are referring to is Cardozo?

your name is causing the confusion lol


No, I am at Fordham. What it comes down to is your school's relative placement strength. To get a big firm job at Cardozo you will need to be near the top of your class in any event, and that's a difficult thing to guarantee. I'm not saying you shouldn't go there, just that there are few safe (or even reasonable) bets when it comes to biglaw right now.

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:37 am

are you in the full-time program at Fordham

I loved fordham - my GPA is well above what they ask, and I have yet to take the LSAT (though my practice tests average a point or two below what they look for)

does having italian citizenship help in admissions process?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:39 am

curly3426 wrote:are you in the full-time program at Fordham

I loved fordham - my GPA is well above what they ask, and I have yet to take the LSAT (though my practice tests average a point or two below what they look for)

does having italian citizenship help in admissions process?


To Italian citizenship: unfortunately not, but that would be pretty cool. Good luck on the LSAT! We know people who had 15+ point increases.

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:40 am

haha wouldn't it!

thanks so much! I am hoping for an extraordinary moment of brilliance

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:42 am

also here is to hoping for a quick economic recovery!

yabbadabbado
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby yabbadabbado » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:44 am

curly3426 wrote:but both schools are good at getting their students well-paying jobs?

I have started to hear bad things about Cardozo's employment placement, have you heard anything?


No, they are not. Again, when things were good, Fordham could place a decent amount of students into big firms. Big firms, with very few exceptions are the only ones paying the big $. NYC is an incredibly over-saturated job market for lawyers and the sheer number of schools create a supply and demand problem. There simply aren't enough jobs to go around for all the law grads being churned out, so employers can be as picky as they want and offer very low salaries (think under $40K) to most students from most of the lower ranked NY law schools (i.e. not NYU or Columbia). Many grads are going to have difficultly finding paying legal work period. Right now, even NYU and Columbia are having trouble placing all of their graduates. Where do you think that leaves schools like Cardozo and the rest of their ilk? This isn't a temporary thing either, since the legal job market is undergoing permanent changes. To top it off, the lower ranked NY schools weren't that good at placing students even when the economy was better.

Don't believe me? Do some basic research on the state of the legal job market. There are a ton of news articles out there. Also, talk to recent grads (last 1-3 years) of these schools. Most are struggling to make ends meet and pay down student loans.

Lastly, never believe any employment/salary stats in US News or law school brochures. All those stats are self-reported and not subject to any third party oversight or audit. Any school can say what ever it wants.

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:47 am

thanks for all of the advice!

mostly, I am applying to Law School to go into either non-profit work or government work - so the big bucks were never my dream, but good to know!

do you have figures on how those jobs have suffered?

yabbadabbado
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby yabbadabbado » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:55 am

Decent non-profit or government jobs are incredibly difficult to get. You will face stiff competition from grads of much higher ranked schools for a very small pool of jobs, even if the economy bounces back by your 3L year.

When the economy crashed, these jobs became even tougher to get because private funders and federal and state governments cut off the $, making even less positions available than before. To top it off, many of these employers cut off hiring entirely because they can get free labor from deferred big law associates, thus no need to hire.

And when there are less big firm positions available, all the people who from top schools who would normally be getting those jobs flood apps for everything else including govt./nonprofit work. These jobs are very, very attractive to grads of top schools primarily because they allow generous LRAP benefits to kick in.

curly3426 wrote:thanks for all of the advice!

mostly, I am applying to Law School to go into either non-profit work or government work - so the big bucks were never my dream, but good to know!

do you have figures on how those jobs have suffered?

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:32 am

thanks my friend!

lawchampion
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby lawchampion » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:45 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
curly3426 wrote:do you have any info on Cardozo or Fordham - have been looking can't find much


It's a bit different here, since so many people switch over. I have confirmation that (former) part time students can and do get V10 jobs. This isn't to say it's common; you would have to be at the very top of our class, but firms do look at PT students who have the grades.

We used to place around top third. Some years it was better than that (43.7% in 2008, according to the NLJ research), but now we are living in uncertain times, and hoping things get better.

what if you switch to FT after your first year? Will it still be a concern for your potential employees?

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:58 pm

WHO IS GONNA STEP UP AND ANSWER THIS GUYS QUESTION!?!? WHO WHO

curly3426
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:49 pm

come on people, i have faith in your lawyer minds

curly3426
Posts: 283
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Re: Part-Time Programs

Postby curly3426 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:02 am

where my lawyers at???




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