Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

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Think_lax86
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Think_lax86 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:54 pm

-romothesavior


As long as you are respectful and reasonable, most people will treat you with respect in return.


go f*ck yourself... JUST KIDDING... seriously though thanks for the advice... I agree with you and the others that say it is not smart to jump into law school now, even tho like you said it will be embarassing, not to say that wearing khakis and a red button down 40 hours a week being a manager at Target doesnt have benefits (it doesn't)... but all in all, the legal job market sucks, i am not going to a top 20 let alone a top 50 school, and I will be in debt close to $80,000-120,000. It just doesnt make sense... I have an internship with the DA's office, and will hopefully get a get LOR... I will have a year of work experience (I might do peacecorp or americorp for half the year but who knows) and I am going to work my tail off studying for the LSAT, AGAIN! Im not happy about it, but I would be alot more miserable working my ass off for 3 years in law school, not to have a job and to be in the whole for $100,000... Being a manager at Target than and being a manager at Target now are quite different scenarios... Anyway thank you all for the words of wisdom...

Romothesavior if you didnt get a 170+ LSAT score how did you manage to go to a Top 20 law school on a 2/3 scholly? please let me in on the secret?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:17 pm

The difference between one who should consider attending a lower tier law school & one who shouldn't is entreprenurial spirit and pragmatism. Many lawyers in solo practice make a good living, but they tend to be practical & have an entreprenurial drive. Attending a tier four law school while accumulating substantial debt with the intention of obtaining a good paying position that does not require substantial hours in a non-practicle field such as environmental law is probably not the wisest course of action. However, if you were a human resources specialist with a major employer and attended law school with the intention of opening up a solo employment law practice or joining a small firm that seeks expertise and experience in that area of law, then your main concerns could focus on paying for law school & passing the bar exam.

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Matthies
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Matthies » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:30 pm

rad law wrote:I will reiterate:

Specialty rankings (aka having a top 3 enviro program) don't mean jack.

Genuine saving the environment PI jobs are also incredibly competitive and prestige oriented. There is not some dearth of people that want to save the environment. The employers, generally, would love to have the T12 grad with an interest in the field and maybe some summer experience in the area rather than the Pace grad, even with the "top 3 enviro program." Sorry.


I disagree with this. First, at least with environmental law, I think people need to stop looking at specialty rankings with some relation to over all rankings, i.e. that specialty rankings would increase someone odds at employment because its ranked X in some specialty. that's not the point of specialty rankings, and they should not be used as such. The point is to direct people towards schools with the best faculty, resources and opportunities for education in that area. No one should look at them as being anything more than that, and should not confuse or discount them to overall rankings.

Second, again, at least in environmental law, its far more important that you specialize in law school and that you get some kind of clinical or real world experience under your belt before you graduate. Very basically this is the point of attending one school with a well developed environmental program over another. The chance to get real world experience before you graduate.

PI organizations may be prestiguige driven in D.C. or NYC, I have no idea, but at least here they are locally driven, and want lawyers who understand the local legal issues. hence a Yale grad with one envrio law class on his resume is going to get skipped over for the kid with 12 enrviro classes, evnrio law review, publications and clinical work and envro centered writing samples. Environmental law is very area specific, and its not easy to learn "on the job." it really won't do much organizations much good to hire a top law school grad who has no knowledge of envrio law over someone who does, regardless of school.

Its the same in private practice. RCRA, CERCLA, CAA, CWA, really can't be learned on the job well enough to hit the ground running, you need to know more than just what the letters stand for.

Is the best advice still go to best ranked school you can get into? YES. But with environmental law its equally important that you go to a school that will allow your resume to be believable when you apply for positions. A generalist JD, even from a top law school, is not going to get put on the top of the stack when the people thumbing through the resumes know they need someone guinally committed to the field and with a track record of doing enriomental law. Its also extremely contacts driven, hence faculty who specialize in he area can be extremely helpful with getting you into positions or introducing yourself to people in the biz. Its also actually very political, in that some organizations really don't like other organizations and some will blacklist you if you work for one or another. Again inside info you need to know that you can't really get if your school is out of touch with the environmental field in a local area.

Finally, Rad your new tar is going to give me a seizer... :shock:

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Grizz
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Grizz » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:04 pm

Matthies wrote:Is the best advice still go to best ranked school you can get into? YES.


For clarification, I think we both agree in the conclusion here, which is don't go to Pace.

Finally, Rad your new tar is going to give me a seizer... :shock:


Haha I was waiting for someone to say that.

Case2L
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Case2L » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:26 pm

Think_lax86 wrote:I am interested in environmental, specifically energy law and with the Obama administration


I'm rooting for the guy, but I'm not sure he'll still be president when you get out of law school.

All kidding aside; if you're limited to T3/T4 schools, you might as well go to the one that has a niche in environmental law. As mentioned in a previous post, the specialty ranking may not be an indication of job prospects/prestige, but it does mean that Pace is committed to this field and has an excellent faculty and excellent clinics to prepare you for a job in environmental law, if you're lucky enough to land such a job. Did you also apply to Vermont Law School? For what you want to do, Vermont is just as good, if not better, and the COL in Vermont is lower than that in White Plains.

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:43 pm

.
Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Think_lax86
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Think_lax86 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:26 pm

that wasnt snarky, just really cute :wink:

and that whole thing with americorp/peacecorp were only options I had just thought might be fun and be a positive resume booster... I wanted to travel a bit before law school and was thinking about teaching english to little spanish babies maybe... who knows... theres also this thing called GreenPeace

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brianmck16
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby brianmck16 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:18 pm

Didn't Pace move up to T3 in the 2010 USNWR rankings? I could be wrong.

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Grizz
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Grizz » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:34 pm

brianmck16 wrote:Didn't Pace move up to T3 in the 2010 USNWR rankings? I could be wrong.


Even if it did, it doesn't matter. Overall USNWR rankings below 20ish don't really matter. Pace will still be ranked behind a litany of schools in the region.

angioletto
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby angioletto » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:31 pm

merichard87 wrote:I agree with the above poster, if you are going to go to a regional school it needs to be a region where you could find the job you want. I'm from Texas and I know energy is really big here and will probably get bigger with this BP mess so you might want to look at schools around the gulf coast. And also look at schools where the EPA does a lot of recruiting. I don't know much about Pace but from what I gather the NY market is basically made up of NYC so if you don't want to work there you need to look elsewhere


Where would one find this information?

Think_lax86
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Think_lax86 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:54 pm

I agree with the above poster, if you are going to go to a regional school it needs to be a region where you could find the job you want. I'm from Texas and I know energy is really big here and will probably get bigger with this BP mess so you might want to look at schools around the gulf coast. And also look at schools where the EPA does a lot of recruiting. I don't know much about Pace but from what I gather the NY market is basically made up of NYC so if you don't want to work there you need to look elsewhere


Where would one find this information?



+1

InsertCleverName
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby InsertCleverName » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:24 am

OP, have you considered going to grad school in environmental studies/policy or some similar area instead? Takes a year less of your life, less competition, and the environmental lawyers don't get anything done without a scientist/policy geek telling them what to do.

Think_lax86
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Think_lax86 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:35 pm

ive considered it but i guess not really pursued it strongly enough... I know Pace has a JD/MEM (masters in environmental management) joint degree with Yale, so that would be a pretty sweet credential to have also... but ill look more into those programs, thanks

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MusicNutMeggie
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby MusicNutMeggie » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Think_lax86 wrote:so ive been on this website for a while now and i think i have come to 2 conclusions about law school. There is no reason to go, or at least a very small reason to go unless you:
(A) Get into a top 20, maybe a top 50 school but top 20 would be better; or
(B) You get into another lower ranked school but can go for free or barely any money at all

An additional note would be for option (B) would be also not to go unless you have some kind of job already lined up before you even go to law school (ie. father is a lawyers, your close family friends with lawyers, etc.)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but if I am not well than I guess dreams where made to be broken.


Not quite true-- there's also:
(C) You get into the best-ranked school in your desired (secondary) market.

People on here aren't trying to be cruel; the legal profession has changed drastically over the last twenty years, so the advice you get from your dad's work pals or whatever doesn't apply. Then the recession hit. ITE, job prospects suck for everyone, including those below the medians at T14s and outside the top 1/3 at T1s. The reason we stress going to a great and/or cheap school (preferably "and") is to minimize the likelihood that you'll be stuck with five or six figures of debt you can't pay off.

People keep telling you that Pace's ranking as a top 3 envi law program doesn't mean anything, but you don't have to take them at their word. Think about it, though-- aren't there a lot of other schools with lots of kids that go into public interest and environmental law? Boalt, for instance? And NYU? Colorado? Vermont?

$80,000 does not sound like a lot of debt, but that's because we're all desensitized. If you HAD $80,000, wouldn't that sound like a lot of money to get to blow on whatever you wanted? If you graduate from Pace and you can't find a job ANYWHERE, let alone in a decent-paying job (yes, I know you don't want BigLaw) in NY state where you get to save the world...then what are you going to do? Go back to Target?

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MusicNutMeggie
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby MusicNutMeggie » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:45 pm

InsertCleverName wrote:OP, have you considered going to grad school in environmental studies/policy or some similar area instead? Takes a year less of your life, less competition, and the environmental lawyers don't get anything done without a scientist/policy geek telling them what to do.


Excellent idea!

Think_lax86
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Think_lax86 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:55 am

MusicNutMeggie,

All of your statements are valid, which is why I have decided to hold off this year and reapply next year with hopefully a full year of work experience and hopefully a bit of a boost in my LSAT score... Plus I never said I didn't want to work for BigLaw in NYC (I would take whatever would help me get rid of this debt), all I said was its not my ultimate goal... I just want to be a lawyer...

$80,000 in the hole and no job on to help pay it off is specifically why this decision has been so difficult for me to make... I know there are federal programs like IBR that help you pay your loans off in 10 years if you do public interest work, but like you were mentioning, I don't think being a manager of Target is really considered public interest work...

Alot to figure out... I feel for all of those non-child-prodigys like myself or the kids whos parents cant pay for their law school tuition who have to make this daunting decision.

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AlasLavinia
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby AlasLavinia » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:42 pm

1) Pace is a tier-3 school
2) The EPA recruits at Pace

Carry on.

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romothesavior
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby romothesavior » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:54 pm

AlasLavinia wrote:1) Pace is a tier-3 school
2) The EPA recruits at Pace

Carry on.


Carry on doing what? Continue NOT commenting in this thread that's been dead for over two months?

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bk1
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby bk1 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:49 pm

romothesavior wrote:
AlasLavinia wrote:1) Pace is a tier-3 school
2) The EPA recruits at Pace

Carry on.


Carry on doing what? Continue NOT commenting in this thread that's been dead for over two months?


You obviously failed at that.

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romothesavior
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby romothesavior » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:19 pm

bk1 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
AlasLavinia wrote:1) Pace is a tier-3 school
2) The EPA recruits at Pace

Carry on.


Carry on doing what? Continue NOT commenting in this thread that's been dead for over two months?


You obviously failed at that.


Good point.

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bk1
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby bk1 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:32 am

romothesavior wrote:
bk1 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
AlasLavinia wrote:1) Pace is a tier-3 school
2) The EPA recruits at Pace

Carry on.


Carry on doing what? Continue NOT commenting in this thread that's been dead for over two months?


You obviously failed at that.


Good point.


It's okay. Now we've both done it twice.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:26 am

bk1 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
bk1 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Carry on doing what? Continue NOT commenting in this thread that's been dead for over two months?


You obviously failed at that.


Good point.


It's okay. Now we've both done it twice.


Is it a party in here or *WHAT*?

YEEEEAAAAAH!!

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Grizz
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby Grizz » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:54 pm

sup NorB

justadude55
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Re: Tier 4, PACE Law school worth it for someone with my goals??

Postby justadude55 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:05 pm

rad law wrote:
happy187 wrote:
merichard87 wrote:Don't go to a Tier 4 law school unless you have a guaranteed job lined up.


I've read this plenty of times on this board and honestly just don't buy it. For undergrad I passed on Penn State and went to a small school in TX, Sam Houston State University. A few years out of undergrad I worked hard networked right and I am doing very well for my self. I have decided to go to law school. It is my passion and I am going to a tier 4 school, STCL, with no regrets on paying sticker (less the 60% covered by post 9/11 GI Bill).

I have never been limited by the name on my Degree, and law school is no different imo.


Undergrad =/= Law School

HTH


+1. unless you went to harvard or yale or one of the elite tech schools, no one cares where you went for undergrad as i've sadly found out being indebted at a realllllly expensive undergrad. where you go to law school is big. if you go to cornell, and aren't happy upstate so it affects your performance, then yes, it's more worth it to go to fordham, because it's still ranked decently and you'd place significantly better. plus life is too short to invest 3 years in not being happy.... but investing a year plus in studying for the LSAT will not only make you immediate $ in scholarships, and set you up at a better school in your region but also teach you skills necessary in arguing and succeeding in school.




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