Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas.

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Hiei
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Re: Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas.

Postby Hiei » Mon May 31, 2010 10:43 pm

MartianManhunter wrote:
delBarco wrote:
MartianManhunter wrote:You seem to be more interested in Texas markets than Atlanta. But if you're serious about Atlanta you ought to add Emory and UGA to your list. A quick search of King & Spalding's and Allston & Bird's (the 2 big ones) Atlanta offices has 429 attorneys that roughly breaks down like this:

UVA: 26 + 32 = 58 or 13.5%
Duke: 8 + 41 = 49 or 11.4%
Vandy: 39 + 55 = 94 or 21.9%
Emory: 33 + 69 = 102 or 23.7%
UGA: 50 + 76 = 126 or 29.3%

I prefer Atlanta's weather to Texas. My understanding is that it's also easier to break into than the Texas market.


did you manually extract these numbers or did you find them somewhere?


Manually. I just did a search on their websites and did a quick count, give or take away credibility accordingly. You or OP can double check if you like.

I always hear about UVA's dominance in Atlanta but raw numbers and the opinions of the small sample of attorneys I know in the city leave me unconvinced. This is just 2 firms, albeit the bigger ones. Maybe more firms would give a more accurate picture of UVA's placement.

I don't know about cross-placement between Atlanta and Texas, but if Vandy places strongly enough in Texas compared to Duke, UT and UVA then it would seem to be the wiser choice. UT only had 3 results between the 2 firms so I wouldn't commit there unless Atlanta wasn't a high priority.



The raw numbers actually make UVA look more dominant in Atlanta. Think about the fact that Atlanta really isn't a first choice destination for many students at any of the top 14 schools, and then factor that into the raw numbers. Especially after having visited UVA I can confidently say that a huge portion of the class there is focused on DC/NYC, and to a lesser extent California. I would say that Atlanta falls significantly behind those locales in terms of UVA students desired markets. Essentially every big time Atlanta firm does OCI at UVA (interestingly enough more do OCI at UVA than at Duke), and for some of the ultra elite Atlanta firms like Bondurant UVA is the only top 14 that they take the time to do OCI at ever year (although they readily accept appliants with good reaon to be in Atlanta from the more elite top 14 schools and Duke).

Do you mind PMing me some of the poor opinions about UVA that you heard from Atlanta attorneys? I had pretty much gotten the opposite impression, and I am suposed to be meeting up with a King and Spakding partner sometime in the near future.

Martian Manhunter is definitely correct about Atlanta being easier to break into for people outside of the region than Texas.

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Grizz
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Re: Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas.

Postby Grizz » Mon May 31, 2010 11:16 pm

Agree with above; lots of UVA students (I'd add Duke) self-select away, but they could get the jobs if they wanted.

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MartianManhunter
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Re: Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas.

Postby MartianManhunter » Mon May 31, 2010 11:23 pm

Hiei wrote:
MartianManhunter wrote:...



The raw numbers actually make UVA look more dominant in Atlanta. Think about the fact that Atlanta really isn't a first choice destination for many students at any of the top 14 schools, and then factor that into the raw numbers. Especially after having visited UVA I can confidently say that a huge portion of the class there is focused on DC/NYC, and to a lesser extent California. I would say that Atlanta falls significantly behind those locales in terms of UVA students desired markets. Essentially every big time Atlanta firm does OCI at UVA (interestingly enough more do OCI at UVA than at Duke), and for some of the ultra elite Atlanta firms like Bondurant UVA is the only top 14 that they take the time to do OCI at ever year (although they readily accept appliants with good reaon to be in Atlanta from the more elite top 14 schools and Duke).

Do you mind PMing me some of the poor opinions about UVA that you heard from Atlanta attorneys? I had pretty much gotten the opposite impression, and I am suposed to be meeting up with a King and Spakding partner sometime in the near future.

Martian Manhunter is definitely correct about Atlanta being easier to break into for people outside of the region than Texas.


Good point. Self-selection is important and isn't really reflected when looking at numbers alone. I'm not at UVA so I wouldn't have a way to know. Firms' interest in the school is probably a better indicator of placement power than the end-result of # of attorneys. OP ought to look at OCI data at the schools they're interested in to get a feel for that.

I didn't mean to make it seem as if the attorneys had a poor opinion of UVA. They spoke highly of the school when prompted. However, when asked general questions about which schools were dominant in the market, where they hired from, etc. the schools mentioned most often and in high regard were Duke, Vanderbilt, and Emory with special note given to the strong placement of UGA through its alumni network. I suppose my reasoning was if you're a hiring partner at a firm and I ask you which schools are the best to go to and you don't mention one of the above, it leads me to question its placement power. This happened over and over with attorneys at King & Spalding, Jones Day, Sutherland, in-house counsel one of the big Atlanta-based companies, and a few boutique and midlaw firms.

Bondurant lacked a wonderfully convenient search feature but a fair amount of random clicking seemed to indicate that UVA, UGA, and Duke (in addition to H and Y) seemed to be the most popular out of the large assortment of schools.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas.

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Mon May 31, 2010 11:31 pm

eandy wrote:In general, Emory places better than UGA. Going to UGA cannot get you a job(realistically) outside of Georgia. Emory can do that for you. However, in ATLANTA, UGA grads and Emory grads are on equal footing. UGA students are in no way at the mercy of Emory students, praying to God each night that Emory kids go somewhere else so that they can have their Atlanta jobs instead. In Atlanta, they are perceived as equals. You missed what I am saying.


Hmmm you're right I did. I guess if someone could hunt down GPA cutoffs for interviews from each school for a firm(s), or relative rank within class each student is at a firm from UGA/Emory we could know exactly. But i'm willing to concede it's negligible unless someone tells me otherwise.

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Grizz
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Re: Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas.

Postby Grizz » Mon May 31, 2010 11:47 pm

delBarco wrote:
eandy wrote:In general, Emory places better than UGA. Going to UGA cannot get you a job(realistically) outside of Georgia. Emory can do that for you. However, in ATLANTA, UGA grads and Emory grads are on equal footing. UGA students are in no way at the mercy of Emory students, praying to God each night that Emory kids go somewhere else so that they can have their Atlanta jobs instead. In Atlanta, they are perceived as equals. You missed what I am saying.


Hmmm you're right I did. I guess if someone could hunt down GPA cutoffs for interviews from each school for a firm(s), or relative rank within class each student is at a firm from UGA/Emory we could know exactly. But i'm willing to concede it's negligible unless someone tells me otherwise.


I've heard both Emory > UGA and Emory = UGA for the ATL market. Even GPA cutoffs don't tell the whole story because GPA cutoffs are much lower than the GPA of those hired, usually. Right now, I'm inclined to go with Emory > UGA (all else equal), just going from the people I've talked to IRL, but I'm sure someone on here is going to go with Emory = UGA based on the people she or he has talked to.

athenian
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Re: Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas.

Postby athenian » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:25 pm

The Emory v. UGA comparison isn't as easy as you think it is. Having friends that go to both schools, the vibes at Emory and UGA are radically different.

A lot of the students at Emory are looking to get out of Atlanta, and Emory's wider alumni network helps the portability of that degree. The UGA folks I know are all striving to get that big law job in Atlanta. There a decent sized UGA alumni base in DC, but more often than not, you'll find a UGA grad in Atlanta.

So, Emory=UGA in the sense that Emory grads finishing in the top 50% are taking the same jobs as UGA students finishing in the top 20%. Most of your top Emory grads are looking northward.

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doinmybest
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Re: Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas.

Postby doinmybest » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:55 am

MartianManhunter wrote: The schools mentioned most often and in high regard were Duke, Vanderbilt, and Emory with special note given to the strong placement of UGA through its alumni network. I suppose my reasoning was if you're a hiring partner at a firm and I ask you which schools are the best to go to and you don't mention one of the above, it leads me to question its placement power. This happened over and over with attorneys at King & Spalding, Jones Day, Sutherland, in-house counsel one of the big Atlanta-based companies, and a few boutique and midlaw firms.


I work in Atlanta, and at my job we hire 1L and 2L summers. I also have worked with King & Spalding and Alston & Bird. I was able to meet with a friend's brother who was a hiring partner at King Spalding when making my decision on where to attend law school. There are a few factors that make predicting a school's success in the ATL market difficult. Your grades, your connection to the region, the preferences of the hiring partner (he may prefer his alma mater) and the current unpredictable economy. However, school prestige is an important factor to many firms and should not be overlooked.

MartianManhunter,
I am very surprised you did not hear UVA consistently... Being in this city and talking with biglaw attorneys on a regular basis, all I hear is UVA UVA UVA UVA. I am 100% sure it has a stellar reputation in this city. Are the numbers that you posted the % of attorneys employed currently at those firms? If so, that data may be irrelevant for hiring purposes. Those percentages show the hiring practices of years past and do not reflect how firms will hire now. From my discussion with the King & Spalding hiring partner, associate hiring has been cut very drastically. He held his hands out wide and said, "this is a bar graph of schools we hire from, on the top are the highest ranked schools (this portion was about 1/4 of the total length of the imaginary line) below that (the remaining 3/4) are regional schools or any schools outside of the T14. Typically ITE (and this is not always the case) we are going to cut hiring by 3/4. Which 3/4 do you think I'm going to cut from?"

That being said, this is the conclusion I have come to for Atlanta.

HYS>T10 (UVA isn't necessarily any better than the other T10s it's just that they have one of the largest networks out of the T10 currently employed here, so getting hired from UVA may be slightly easier)>Duke>/=Vanderbilt (do not underestimate how good their reputation is here in ATL)>Emory>/=UGA.

Emory vs UGA: Let me qualify the confusion above. As far as hiring is concerned, UGA alums are VERY loyal to their own. However, at my job (not biglaw) for internships, we take Emory grads over UGA grads as long as they demonstrate a connection to GA (a large portion of Emory students are not from GA). The difference between Emory and UGA hiring in Biglaw ITE is very negligible, Emory may have a very slight edge in big law, but the fact is that getting biglaw in ATL from either of these schools right now is VERY hard.

Texas: I’m not sure this would be the best place to go for ATL biglaw. I rarely hear this school mentioned in ATL.
hth

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas.

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:20 am

OP, it appears as though you have to compromise.

If you don't swing HYS, a half scholarship at Vanderbilt or UT> sticker at the rest of the T14 (or less, depending on the T14).

(that was concluded from everything in this thread)

However, you won't be able to have great access to both Texas and Georgia without connections to those regions.

I think that you really prefer Texas, but you don't want to feel like you absolutely have to stay there if you got to UT. UT will not limit you to Texas, but you may have more difficulty gaining employment in Georgia than you would if you went to Vanderbilt. So, it's a toss up. The thread title has three cities listed. UT has great access to 2/3 of those cities. Using that logic, UT. On the other hand, Vanderbilt is generally hired more deeply into by major employers than UT. Using that logic, Vanderbilt. Also, the Austin market is almost impossible to get without prior Austin ties and the Nashville market is a decent backup. But, UT is preferred throughout the state of Texas so there are plently of other "backup" cities to find employment.

Ultimately, given your preferences, you should choose UT. Texas has large markets and a low cost of living.

Sidenote: Emory and UGA are basically peers. True, prestige focused employers will generally prefer Emory over UGA. But there was not a big difference between them when it came to big law in 2009. Emory just does what Vanderbilt, WashU, Tulane, Notre Dame, George Washington, and the T14 do = take in students from all over the US instead of taking students primarily from one market (each of these schools have at least 20% of their classes come from NY, etc.). Most public schools have to take a certain amount of students from their state (usually more than 50%), which is why most public schools seem inferior in "national" placement to their private school counterparts (i.e. Wake v. UNC, Emory v. UGA, Notre Dame/WashU v. Illinois, etc.)




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