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I've been having such a hard time deciding where to go next year that I recently followed up on McGeorge's last minute pleas to apply and shot them an app. I received an acceptance packet from them today. I have been offered an International Legal Fellow award, which includes: $18,000/year (no conditions), all textbooks, full-tuition scholarship for their summer program in Salzburg, and admittance into their International Law Mentor Program. My other offer is Tulane at sticker price. Considering tuition rates and cost of living, it breaks down to about twice the cost to go to Tulane.

I visited Tulane and really liked it there. I have never been to Sacramento before, but as far as I can tell it sounds like an enjoyable place to live. At this time I do not have a preference for where I would like to live/work, except to say that I have spent my entire life in the Chicago area and would really like to try living somewhere else.

Regardless of where I go I would be trying hard to transfer to the T14 after 1L. I understand that there is an X% chance of being in the top X%. If it doesn't happen, I believe I will be happy in either Sacramento or NOLA.

I am thinking that because I am looking to transfer after 1L, the scholarship shouldn't be a huge factor in this decision. Is it crazy for me to think this? I also believe I would have a much easier time transferring to the T14 from Tulane than from McGeorge (Arrow's transfer thread indicates I'd need to be in the top 10-15% from Tulane (top 5% for HYS) or top 5-10% for McGeorge). Does this sound right?

What would you do? (I'm already planning on retaking the LSAT in June)

Bourbon St. >> Austria

rollingby wrote:I've been having such a hard time deciding where to go next year that I recently followed up on McGeorge's last minute pleas to apply and shot them an app. I received an acceptance packet from them today. I have been offered an International Legal Fellow award, which includes: $18,000/year (no conditions), all textbooks, full-tuition scholarship for their summer program in Salzburg, and admittance into their International Law Mentor Program. My other offer is Tulane at sticker price. Considering tuition rates and cost of living, it breaks down to about twice the cost to go to Tulane.

I visited Tulane and really liked it there. I have never been to Sacramento before, but as far as I can tell it sounds like an enjoyable place to live. At this time I do not have a preference for where I would like to live/work, except to say that I have spent my entire life in the Chicago area and would really like to try living somewhere else.

Regardless of where I go I would be trying hard to transfer to the T14 after 1L. I understand that there is an X% chance of being in the top X%. If it doesn't happen, I believe I will be happy in either Sacramento or NOLA.

I am thinking that because I am looking to transfer after 1L, the scholarship shouldn't be a huge factor in this decision. Is it crazy for me to think this? I also believe I would have a much easier time transferring to the T14 from Tulane than from McGeorge (Arrow's transfer thread indicates I'd need to be in the top 10-15% from Tulane (top 5% for HYS) or top 5-10% for McGeorge). Does this sound right?

What would you do? (I'm already planning on retaking the LSAT in June)

Yeah... you might be happy with the quality of life in either city, but would you be happy with the job prospects coming out of either school (assuming the worst case scenario - that is, that you don't make the grades to transfer). To take it even further, would you rather graduate median from Tulane or median from McGeorge??? I know very little about McGeorge, but I'm from Louisiana so I can tell you this: employers will perform actions similar to those that crack fiends do in order to get Tulane grads to stay in LA. Even at median. (I would even go as far as to say below median.)

UT grads will get TX first, and SMU grads will get Dallas first. But besides that... Tulane pwns in LA, TX, MS, AR, AL (behind Bama), and even has nat'l mobility. Can you say the same about McGeorge? Plus (from what I gather on TLS), some T14 will only take T1 transfers. Again, that would be Tulane. Do the right thing here man...

I think Tulane seems like the better call. McGeorge has a lot of competition from much better schools (UCD in the immediate vicinity as well as UCH and other CA schools in general) whereas Tulane is the top school in Louisiana. Unless you are debt-averse, I think that Tulane is a stronger call in the job prospects department.

It feels like you are overestimating your transfer prospects, especially out of McGeorge.

rollingby wrote:Regardless of where I go I would be trying hard to transfer to the T14 after 1L. I understand that there is an X% chance of being in the top X%. If it doesn't happen, I believe I will be happy in either Sacramento or NOLA.

I am thinking that because I am looking to transfer after 1L, the scholarship shouldn't be a huge factor in this decision. Is it crazy for me to think this? I also believe I would have a much easier time transferring to the T14 from Tulane than from McGeorge (Arrow's transfer thread indicates I'd need to be in the top 10-15% from Tulane (top 5% for HYS) or top 5-10% for McGeorge).

Yikes, don't go to either looking to transfer. A retake is a much more solid option for getting into a better school. Failing that, pick the place you'd rather live. Be prepared to try your career there. Tulane is a better option than McGeorge, assuming the geography works out for you.

I have no advice to offer on Tulane and the NOLA market, but I know that Sacramento is not a great legal market and that though McGeorge has a notable place there, their students often get pushed aside by Davis, Hastings and others (e.g. Boalt, even UCLA). Quick NALP search says 32 firms do OCI at Tulane and 13 do OCI at McGeorge.

If you are ambitious, I'd stress retake and reapply over crossing your fingers for a transfer.

Methinks you can negotiate for way more $ from McGeorge. (PM me for my experience w/McGeorge, if you'd like.) Still, it'd have to be a pretty big upward swing to outweigh Tulane's much-better placement for its respective region.

That said, I'd personally rather study/live/work in California that Louisiana. To each his own. But I'm over the humidity. And I'd rather be 2 hours from SF and Tahoe than 2-3 hours from Baton Rouge and Jackson, Miss.




PS
Bourbon Street is a shithole. Sorry. Had to get it out. Terrible, terrible place. This may out me as an un-fun, un-cool fogey. Fine. Still, it's a shithole. The rest of New Orleans is great (well ... some of the rest).

ozarkhack wrote:That said, I'd personally rather study/live/work in California that Louisiana. To each his own. But I'm over the humidity. And I'd rather be 2 hours from SF and Tahoe than 2-3 hours from Baton Rouge and Jackson, Miss.

I agree with this. New Orleans is clearly a far cooler place, and awesome to visit. But I'd rather not live there, not least because it's in the South. I don't love Sacramento or anything, but I'd prefer it to NOLA. Though I do find it a little funny when the only good thing people have to say about Sacramento is that it's only a few hours from being somewhere else.

For somebody who weighs the two places equally, Tulane at lower cost (according to OP's calculations) probably has better job prospects.

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rollingby wrote:I've been having such a hard time deciding where to go next year that I recently followed up on McGeorge's last minute pleas to apply and shot them an app. I received an acceptance packet from them today. I have been offered an International Legal Fellow award, which includes: $18,000/year (no conditions), all textbooks, full-tuition scholarship for their summer program in Salzburg, and admittance into their International Law Mentor Program. My other offer is Tulane at sticker price. Considering tuition rates and cost of living, it breaks down to about twice the cost to go to Tulane.

I visited Tulane and really liked it there. I have never been to Sacramento before, but as far as I can tell it sounds like an enjoyable place to live. At this time I do not have a preference for where I would like to live/work, except to say that I have spent my entire life in the Chicago area and would really like to try living somewhere else.

Regardless of where I go I would be trying hard to transfer to the T14 after 1L. I understand that there is an X% chance of being in the top X%. If it doesn't happen, I believe I will be happy in either Sacramento or NOLA.

I am thinking that because I am looking to transfer after 1L, the scholarship shouldn't be a huge factor in this decision. Is it crazy for me to think this? I also believe I would have a much easier time transferring to the T14 from Tulane than from McGeorge (Arrow's transfer thread indicates I'd need to be in the top 10-15% from Tulane (top 5% for HYS) or top 5-10% for McGeorge). Does this sound right?

What would you do? (I'm already planning on retaking the LSAT in June)

How come you are planning to retake the LSAT? Is this because you are considering retaking and reapplying?

From what I've read, schools don't really give a crap about your LSAT when you're transferring, so if it's to boost your transfer resume, you're wasting your time. If it's to reapply for next year, then that's a very good idea if you are willing to wait a year.

I would NOT expect to be able to transfer anywhere from McGeorge, especially to a T14...it's too low ranked...you'd have to be like #1 or #2 in your class to have a shot, and even then it wouldnt necessarily be possible.

Tulane wouldn't be as difficult, but you'd still probably have to be top 10% to get into a T14...

This is a tough choice because I think you are putting too much hope in your ability to transfer, and it doesn't seem like you'd be thrilled living and working in either place (or at least maybe you haven't done a ton of research into it to know fur sure one way or the other??)

And I definitely think scholarships matter. Does yours come with a stipulation? Because if it does that's not a good situation. Imagine how much you would hate your life if you only made top 40% (still a good first year), lost your scholarship, couldn't transfer out and was stuck paying sticker at a low ranked T2...that's your worst case scenario. And to be fair to yourself, it's not THAT unlikely if you went to McGeorge.

eldizknee wrote:

ozarkhack wrote:Bourbon Street is a shithole. Sorry. Had to get it out. Terrible, terrible place. This may out me as an un-fun, un-cool fogey. Fine. Still, it's a shithole. The rest of New Orleans is great (well ... some of the rest).

The people who think Bourbon street is the best part of New Orleans are the ones who are un-fun and un-cool. If you like hanging out with drunk obnoxious tourists then Bourbon is the place to be. Enjoying real New Orleans means avoiding it.

+1

Burbon street sucks.

Also, don't be fooled by Tulane's greatly exaggerated starting salary statistics. Even so, I think it comes down to where you want to live afterward.

I'm retaking the LSAT to try to get off of my waitlists or get money from Tulane. I've already taken it twice so I am going to give it one last shot. If I improve my score significantly I will wait a year and reapply early next cycle.

McGeorge's scholarship does not come with any strings attached and perhaps I could negotiate for more money from them.

Tulane would be about twice the cost, roughly Tulane at 180k vs McGeorge at 90k.

I guess I don't really have any idea what it's like to live in NOLA. The climate is definitely a concern for me. At least I won't have to worry about Chicago-like winters there though...

Bourbon street is not somewhere I plan on spending much time during law school. The only reason I'd probably ever go there is if I had friends coming to visit and I was showing them around.

rollingby wrote:Tulane would be about twice the cost, roughly Tulane at 180k vs McGeorge at 90k.

Oh, I must have misread then. This puts it into a lot more contention.

Good luck on the retake, that's really your best option if you can get a noticeable bump.

A visit to Sacramento is in order. If that doesn't scare you away, McGeorge might be the winner. Tulane has better job prospects, but I don't know if they are 90k better.

rollingby wrote:I'm retaking the LSAT to try to get off of my waitlists or get money from Tulane. I've already taken it twice so I am going to give it one last shot. If I improve my score significantly I will wait a year and reapply early next cycle.

McGeorge's scholarship does not come with any strings attached and perhaps I could negotiate for more money from them.

Tulane would be about twice the cost, roughly Tulane at 180k vs McGeorge at 90k.

I guess I don't really have any idea what it's like to live in NOLA. The climate is definitely a concern for me. At least I won't have to worry about Chicago-like winters there though...

Bourbon street is not somewhere I plan on spending much time during law school. The only reason I'd probably ever go there is if I had friends coming to visit and I was showing them around.

Ah, ok, now the situation is clearer. Here are my thoughts:

If transferring is your #1 priority, you have to go to Tulane. McGeorge just won't give you ANY realistic transfer possibilities whatsoever (I mean, transferring INTO the T1 would be possible with a top 20% 1L, but T14 would be basically impossible I think)...however, if you seriously don't care which place you'd live/work, then follow the money to McGeorge. Their only competition in Sacramento is Davis, and Davis students all want to go to SF/SoCal, so you'd have a decent shot of landing a job in California's highly functional and politically healthy capital.

Tulane is not worth sticker. I wouldn't go to McGeorge, either. Best of luck on the retake in June. I recommend reapplying if Tulane doesn't throw money your way.

rad law wrote: I recommend reapplying if Tulane doesn't throw money your way.

Ok, I think this is what I will do, continue to hold my seat at Tulane in hopes of getting money with a higher LSAT. If not, and I don't get off of any waitlists, then I will find something to do for a year and petition to retake the LSAT for a fourth time in the fall.

rad law wrote:Tulane is not worth sticker. I wouldn't go to McGeorge, either. Best of luck on the retake in June. I recommend reapplying if Tulane doesn't throw money your way.

No law program is worth sticker (maybe HYS, but does one relaly need to make that distinction?). I say Tulane in general. It is an infinitely better school than McGeorge.

Tulane Breakdown:
1. Numero uno in its insulated home market.
2. T1 school (see shell oil job advertisement on abovethelaw.com)
3. National recognition (it co-hosts job fairs in CA, DC, NY, GA, and MA with Vanderbilt University and Washington University of St. Louis)
4. It also dominates the region around LA (AR, MS, AL, etc.)
5. It has graduates in meaningful positions in every state willing to offer a hand (not many non-T14s have that; Notre Dame in particular comes to mind)
6. ?????
7. Profit

McGeorge Breakdown:

1. ?????
2. Loss

Ultimately, Tulane sticker > McGeorge. Period. See if you can get Tulane to offer you $10,000 somehow.

rollingby wrote:I've been having such a hard time deciding where to go next year that I recently followed up on McGeorge's last minute pleas to apply and shot them an app. I received an acceptance packet from them today. I have been offered an International Legal Fellow award, which includes: $18,000/year (no conditions), all textbooks, full-tuition scholarship for their summer program in Salzburg, and admittance into their International Law Mentor Program. My other offer is Tulane at sticker price. Considering tuition rates and cost of living, it breaks down to about twice the cost to go to Tulane.

I visited Tulane and really liked it there. I have never been to Sacramento before, but as far as I can tell it sounds like an enjoyable place to live. At this time I do not have a preference for where I would like to live/work, except to say that I have spent my entire life in the Chicago area and would really like to try living somewhere else.

Regardless of where I go I would be trying hard to transfer to the T14 after 1L. I understand that there is an X% chance of being in the top X%. If it doesn't happen, I believe I will be happy in either Sacramento or NOLA.

I am thinking that because I am looking to transfer after 1L, the scholarship shouldn't be a huge factor in this decision. Is it crazy for me to think this? I also believe I would have a much easier time transferring to the T14 from Tulane than from McGeorge (Arrow's transfer thread indicates I'd need to be in the top 10-15% from Tulane (top 5% for HYS) or top 5-10% for McGeorge). Does this sound right?

What would you do? (I'm already planning on retaking the LSAT in June)

the scholarship should be a huge factor. you can't bank of being able to transfer so you have to make your decision under the assumption that you will be saving 90k by choosing to go to mcgeorge or paying twice as much for law school by choosing to go to tulane.

tulane places better than mcgeorge.
mcgeorge: bottom 2/3 of the class makes 60k or less
tulane: bottom 40% of the class makes 70k or less
but i think paying sticker for a law school that isn't an instate public is too risky, so i would would make the safer choice by picking mcgeorge.

i've never been to Tulane, but I would advise you to visit Sacramento for a weekend before making this decision. Sacramento is not the California you see in media or hear from tourist. The fact that McGeorge is in Sacramento even deters some applicants. Check out the town, it's the wisest thing to do since you'll most likely be stuck in Sacramento for 7+ years for school and work.

rollingby wrote:I've been having such a hard time deciding where to go next year that I recently followed up on McGeorge's last minute pleas to apply and shot them an app. I received an acceptance packet from them today. I have been offered an International Legal Fellow award, which includes: $18,000/year (no conditions), all textbooks, full-tuition scholarship for their summer program in Salzburg, and admittance into their International Law Mentor Program. My other offer is Tulane at sticker price. Considering tuition rates and cost of living, it breaks down to about twice the cost to go to Tulane.

I visited Tulane and really liked it there. I have never been to Sacramento before, but as far as I can tell it sounds like an enjoyable place to live. At this time I do not have a preference for where I would like to live/work, except to say that I have spent my entire life in the Chicago area and would really like to try living somewhere else.

Regardless of where I go I would be trying hard to transfer to the T14 after 1L. I understand that there is an X% chance of being in the top X%. If it doesn't happen, I believe I will be happy in either Sacramento or NOLA.

I am thinking that because I am looking to transfer after 1L, the scholarship shouldn't be a huge factor in this decision. Is it crazy for me to think this? I also believe I would have a much easier time transferring to the T14 from Tulane than from McGeorge (Arrow's transfer thread indicates I'd need to be in the top 10-15% from Tulane (top 5% for HYS) or top 5-10% for McGeorge). Does this sound right?

What would you do? (I'm already planning on retaking the LSAT in June)

Tulane. Better prospects and a solid national rep.

Regionality wrote: McGeorge just won't give you ANY realistic transfer possibilities whatsoever (I mean, transferring INTO the T1 would be possible with a top 20% 1L, but T14 would be basically impossible I think)...

Just wanted to comment on this. Top 5% at McGeorge allows for potential transfer to Berkeley. GTown there is anecdotal applicants who have made the jump who were in the top 10%. Generally, top 15% ish lands you in Davis. Transferring into the big leagues is not impossible, just unlikely.

As a previous poster has also mentioned, Scholly $$ is negotiable. Send me a PM if you want further info.

najumobi wrote: tulane places better than mcgeorge.
mcgeorge: bottom 2/3 of the class makes 60k or less
tulane: bottom 40% of the class makes 70k or less
but i think paying sticker for a law school that isn't an instate public is too risky, so i would would make the safer choice by picking mcgeorge.

I would say neither. I am going to Tulane w/ 25k. but w/o schlrly I do not think it would be worth it. If you look at the median Tulane salary for the 2008 class it is 90k per year. 200k for a starting 90k salary? that cost/benefit calculation just doesn't seem to stack up to me.

on the other hand, I wouldn't say mcgeorge is the best choice either. That being said, it is cheaper and thus less debt...problem of lower starting salary. I would say that it would be best to add a third option to the table if possible.

gwuorbust wrote: I would say neither. I am going to Tulane w/ 25k. but w/o schlrly I do not think it would be worth it. If you look at the median Tulane salary for the 2008 class it is 90k per year. 200k for a starting 90k salary? that cost/benefit calculation just doesn't seem to stack up to me.

Also this $90k is almost assuredly inflated.

gwuorbust wrote:

najumobi wrote: tulane places better than mcgeorge.
mcgeorge: bottom 2/3 of the class makes 60k or less
tulane: bottom 40% of the class makes 70k or less
but i think paying sticker for a law school that isn't an instate public is too risky, so i would would make the safer choice by picking mcgeorge.

I would say neither. I am going to Tulane w/ 25k. but w/o schlrly I do not think it would be worth it. If you look at the median Tulane salary for the 2008 class it is 90k per year. 200k for a starting 90k salary? that cost/benefit calculation just doesn't seem to stack up to me.

on the other hand, I wouldn't say mcgeorge is the best choice either. That being said, it is cheaper and thus less debt...problem of lower starting salary. I would say that it would be best to add a third option to the table if possible.

They actually claim it is $97K, but that's with less than half the class reporting salary. So a good bet is that $97K is somewhere above 25th percentile in reality.

JCougar wrote:

gwuorbust wrote: I would say neither. I am going to Tulane w/ 25k. but w/o schlrly I do not think it would be worth it. If you look at the median Tulane salary for the 2008 class it is 90k per year. 200k for a starting 90k salary? that cost/benefit calculation just doesn't seem to stack up to me.

on the other hand, I wouldn't say mcgeorge is the best choice either. That being said, it is cheaper and thus less debt...problem of lower starting salary. I would say that it would be best to add a third option to the table if possible.

They actually claim it is $97K, but that's with less than half the class reporting salary. So a good bet is that $97K is somewhere above 25th percentile in reality.

Whoa.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON

rad law wrote:

JCougar wrote:

gwuorbust wrote: I would say neither. I am going to Tulane w/ 25k. but w/o schlrly I do not think it would be worth it. If you look at the median Tulane salary for the 2008 class it is 90k per year. 200k for a starting 90k salary? that cost/benefit calculation just doesn't seem to stack up to me.

on the other hand, I wouldn't say mcgeorge is the best choice either. That being said, it is cheaper and thus less debt...problem of lower starting salary. I would say that it would be best to add a third option to the table if possible.

They actually claim it is $97K, but that's with less than half the class reporting salary. So a good bet is that $97K is somewhere above 25th percentile in reality.

Whoa.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON

Actually, I just checked the Law School Transparency website. Tulane only has 24.6% of its class reporting salary.

I knew it was absurdly low, but I had forgotten how bad it is.

Translation: only about the top 15% of the class or so makes $97K or more.