Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE Forum

[Matthies]

Do any of you actually know someone who graduated from Cooley or a TTTT? I literally know someone who graduated from there and is living in his parents basement with over 150k of student loans and no job. Hes 35ish. The only good part of this story is that he doesn't have any kids. Do you think he'd want you to go back in that time machine and be a douche and tell him to STFO of Cooley?

Just because you know someone who graduated from a TTTT that is 'doing well' doesn't mean anything. I could go down to the casino and roll the dice with $150k and statistically it would be a better bet than going to a TTTT.

Like I said, if he's actually your friend you should try to talk him out of it. If he's not really a friend, you probably shouldn't care anyway.

Hey just the like the NU grad!

Basic point is this, not everyone will be successful at being a lawyer. Part of that success is finidng yourself a job when the the propectes look slim, or just giving up when its too hard for you. Some folks just won't have the skills needed to find themselves a job, or keep it, in the legal profession. Some who go to TTTT will, and some who got to T14s won't. It will be harder for a graduate of a TTTT who sucks at the legal profession to get a job in it anyway, but easier for the t14 grad who sucks to get that first job, keep it long enough to pay of his bills, probably not. The simple fact of merely going to law school, ANY law school, does not a good lawyer make. There will be successes and failures from every school on the continuum. The people who happen to pick law school and just so happen to actually be good at, will end up doing fine. Those that aren't won't. Your diploma can only save your crappy work product for so long.

[berkeleykel06]

Do any of you actually know someone who graduated from Cooley or a TTTT? I literally know someone who graduated from there and is living in his parents basement with over 150k of student loans and no job. Hes 35ish. The only good part of this story is that he doesn't have any kids. Do you think he'd want you to go back in that time machine and be a douche and tell him to STFO of Cooley?

Just because you know someone who graduated from a TTTT that is 'doing well' doesn't mean anything. I could go down to the casino and roll the dice with $150k and statistically it would be a better bet than going to a TTTT.

Like I said, if he's actually your friend you should try to talk him out of it. If he's not really a friend, you probably shouldn't care anyway.

The problem is that he is going to go either way. Very few people in that position are going to do a complete 180 and not go to law school at all just because they have been warned against it, and it seems improving on the LSAT and trying again next year isn't realistic for him. The only good that will come out of warning him not to go will be ruining the friendship and getting the chance to say I TOLD YOU SO in three years if it doesn't work out for him. OP, at most give him a copy of Getting To Maybe or something similiar as a gift and direct him toward TLS if you think it'll help him do better in law school and be prepared for the job prospects coming out, but besides that you just have to hope he will be one of the lucky ones. As others have said, not everyone coming out of a TTTT is destined to failure.

[Matthies]

To answer a few posters questions about career goals, he wants to go into environmental .... and is completely clueless about how tough those are to get into (in his defense, so was I until I started following these blogs once I decided law school was for me)...

Environmental law is comlicated, but near as complicated as many people think. And out of curiosity what blogs?

[Regionality]

Do any of you actually know someone who graduated from Cooley or a TTTT? I literally know someone who graduated from there and is living in his parents basement with over 150k of student loans and no job. Hes 35ish. The only good part of this story is that he doesn't have any kids. Do you think he'd want you to go back in that time machine and be a douche and tell him to STFO of Cooley?

Just because you know someone who graduated from a TTTT that is 'doing well' doesn't mean anything. I could go down to the casino and roll the dice with $150k and statistically it would be a better bet than going to a TTTT.

Like I said, if he's actually your friend you should try to talk him out of it. If he's not really a friend, you probably shouldn't care anyway.

Hey just the like the NU grad!

Basic point is this, not everyone will be successful at being a lawyer. Part of that success is finidng yourself a job when the the propectes look slim, or just giving up when its too hard for you. Some folks just won't have the skills needed to find themselves a job, or keep it, in the legal profession. Some who go to TTTT will, and some who got to T14s won't. It will be harder for a graduate of a TTTT who sucks at the legal profession to get a job in it anyway, but easier for the t14 grad who sucks to get that first job, keep it long enough to pay of his bills, probably not. The simple fact of merely going to law school, ANY law school, does not a good lawyer make. There will be successes and failures from every school on the continuum. The people who happen to pick law school and just so happen to actually be good at, will end up doing fine. Those that aren't won't. Your diploma can only save your crappy work product for so long.

Matties, I generally think you give amazing and wise advice, but I find this to be silly and illogical.

If someone has a 98% chance of doubling their money at some retarded casino's broken roulette table, a good, knowledgeable friend would advise them to play that roulette game.

If someone has a 2% chance of doubling their money at some criminally-motivated casino's loaded roulette table, a good, knowledgeable friend would advise them not to play that roulette game.

Advice can come contingent on probabilities...simply looking at outliers doesn't make for good advice.

Edited for making my entire point.

[Mattalones]

[deleted] post now obsolete

[Regionality]

s...simply looking at outliers does't make for good advice.

ftfy

haha, fixed

[bk1]

Do any of you actually know someone who graduated from Cooley or a TTTT? I literally know someone who graduated from there and is living in his parents basement with over 150k of student loans and no job. Hes 35ish. The only good part of this story is that he doesn't have any kids. Do you think he'd want you to go back in that time machine and be a douche and tell him to STFO of Cooley?

Just because you know someone who graduated from a TTTT that is 'doing well' doesn't mean anything. I could go down to the casino and roll the dice with $150k and statistically it would be a better bet than going to a TTTT.

Like I said, if he's actually your friend you should try to talk him out of it. If he's not really a friend, you probably shouldn't care anyway.

Hey just the like the NU grad!

Basic point is this, not everyone will be successful at being a lawyer. Part of that success is finidng yourself a job when the the propectes look slim, or just giving up when its too hard for you. Some folks just won't have the skills needed to find themselves a job, or keep it, in the legal profession. Some who go to TTTT will, and some who got to T14s won't. It will be harder for a graduate of a TTTT who sucks at the legal profession to get a job in it anyway, but easier for the t14 grad who sucks to get that first job, keep it long enough to pay of his bills, probably not. The simple fact of merely going to law school, ANY law school, does not a good lawyer make. There will be successes and failures from every school on the continuum. The people who happen to pick law school and just so happen to actually be good at, will end up doing fine. Those that aren't won't. Your diploma can only save your crappy work product for so long.

Matties, I generally think you give amazing and wise advice, but I find this to be silly and illogical.

If someone has a 98% chance of doubling their money at some retarded casino's broken roulette table, a good, knowledgeable friend would advise them to play that roulette game.

If someone has a 2% chance of doubling their money at some criminally-motivated casino's loaded roulette table, a good, knowledgeable friend would advise them not to play that roulette game.

Advice can come contingent on probabilities...simply looking at outliers does make for good advice.

Agree with Matthies on possibility, but agree with Regionality on probability. Matthies is ignoring that if this person is choosing to go to law school, then that person should give themselves the best shot. I don't think Regionality is trying to convince someone whose only law school option is a T4 not to go to law school, but rather someone who has better options than a T4 to go somewhere other than a T4 if they truly want a JD.

If Regionality's friend has a legitimate shot at drastically increasing his job prospects (as going to a better school than a T4 most likely would), it seems foolish not to take that shot. If all the friend can go to is a T4, then fine that is that. But if that person can somehow get into a much better school, that person is much better off whether or not they are cut out for a legal career. This is not a comparison between two different individuals, this is a comparison between two choices presented to one individual.

[lostjake]

FWIW I talked a friend of mine into not going into getting a full time MBA. He said he was going to get a 'job turning around companies by finding where they could cut back' or something. I said hey dude, you're making 50k a year right now, B school is going to cost you around 100k when its all said and done, so two years of your life later you're going to be -200k in the hole and have interest on that 100k when its all said and done. Then realistically you MIGHT make 20k more per year, if you can find a job right now. I said that most fancy jobs like the one he was looking for go to either 1. people that already work at the company and went to get a mba or 2. people who go to Harvard. So after its all said and done you'll make 20k per year, if you can find a job, which will take you about 15 years to pay off that debt ratio (after interest). So is the gamble worth 15 years? Probably not.

I would suggest doing the math with your friend. My friend did ask my opinion on it, and he's a pretty close friend. The situation your friend is in is worse. IMO. Although berkeleykel and matthies have very valid points. You don't want to ruin a friendship over it, try to bring is up discretely, maybe over a beer or two.

[Regionality]

Do any of you actually know someone who graduated from Cooley or a TTTT? I literally know someone who graduated from there and is living in his parents basement with over 150k of student loans and no job. Hes 35ish. The only good part of this story is that he doesn't have any kids. Do you think he'd want you to go back in that time machine and be a douche and tell him to STFO of Cooley?

Just because you know someone who graduated from a TTTT that is 'doing well' doesn't mean anything. I could go down to the casino and roll the dice with $150k and statistically it would be a better bet than going to a TTTT.

Like I said, if he's actually your friend you should try to talk him out of it. If he's not really a friend, you probably shouldn't care anyway.

Hey just the like the NU grad!

Basic point is this, not everyone will be successful at being a lawyer. Part of that success is finidng yourself a job when the the propectes look slim, or just giving up when its too hard for you. Some folks just won't have the skills needed to find themselves a job, or keep it, in the legal profession. Some who go to TTTT will, and some who got to T14s won't. It will be harder for a graduate of a TTTT who sucks at the legal profession to get a job in it anyway, but easier for the t14 grad who sucks to get that first job, keep it long enough to pay of his bills, probably not. The simple fact of merely going to law school, ANY law school, does not a good lawyer make. There will be successes and failures from every school on the continuum. The people who happen to pick law school and just so happen to actually be good at, will end up doing fine. Those that aren't won't. Your diploma can only save your crappy work product for so long.

Matties, I generally think you give amazing and wise advice, but I find this to be silly and illogical.

If someone has a 98% chance of doubling their money at some retarded casino's broken roulette table, a good, knowledgeable friend would advise them to play that roulette game.

If someone has a 2% chance of doubling their money at some criminally-motivated casino's loaded roulette table, a good, knowledgeable friend would advise them not to play that roulette game.

Advice can come contingent on probabilities...simply looking at outliers does make for good advice.

Agree with Matthies on possibility, but agree with Regionality on probability. Matthies is ignoring that if this person is choosing to go to law school, then that person should give themselves the best shot. I don't think Regionality is trying to convince someone whose only law school option is a T4 not to go to law school, but rather someone who has better options than a T4 to go somewhere other than a T4 if they truly want a JD.

If Regionality's friend has a legitimate shot at drastically increasing his job prospects (as going to a better school than a T4 most likely would), it seems foolish not to take that shot. If all the friend can go to is a T4, then fine that is that. But if that person can somehow get into a much better school, that person is much better off whether or not they are cut out for a legal career. This is not a comparison between two different individuals, this is a comparison between two choices presented to one individual.

The truth is I'm not 100% certain what their law school options are at this point...I KNOW that they got accepted to a low T2 school w/ no money, but I'm not sure if the deposit deadline already passed for them or if it's still an option before June 1 (also, even if it passed, sometimes schools will still let you go if you call and beg, right?) I will know more when I see him.

Then that opens up a whole other can of worms-- which is better...lower T2 no money vs. T4 half scholly. I'm sure everyone is now going to ask me what the schools are, but I won't say because that would DEFINITELY give away the identity of my friend whose feelings I am trying to SPARE not hurt more by directing them to a thread discussing their very own situation.

I'm confused

[Matthies]

Advice can come contingent on probabilities...simply looking at outliers doesn't make for good advice.

But what if the outliers in reality actually far outnumber the "supposed" successful ones? Any idea what size firms most lawyers work at? Any idea how they land those jobs? Any idea how to find out that info if its not in Matrinadale? Or if its not tracked on ATL? Any idea what the median salary is for a lawyer in a specific state? By firm size? By practice area? What are you using as data points for this? Anonymous internet sources? I'm not being an ass here, I'm asking have you looked for sources OUTSIDE the "common wisdom" of people not working in the legal world before you jump on the bandwagon?

[Regionality]

Advice can come contingent on probabilities...simply looking at outliers doesn't make for good advice.

But what if the outliers in reality actually far outnumber the "supposed" successful ones? Any idea what size firms most lawyers work at? Any idea how they land those jobs? Any idea how to find out that info if its not in Matrinadale? Or if its not tracked on ATL? Any idea what the median salary is for a lawyer in a specific state? By firm size? By practice area? What are you using as data points for this? Anonymous internet sources? I'm not being an ass here, I'm asking have you looked for sources OUTSIDE the "common wisdom" of people not working in the legal world before you jump on the bandwagon?

So are you saying that the conventional wisdom on TLS that TTTT's don't provide, apart from a VERY small minority of lucky students, reasonable job prospects in the legal/quasi-legal profession is incorrect?

Or are you saying that I need to do more research on this specific school?-- because just looking at the LSAC #'s are grim (and those are still from before ITE)...and the school itself doesn't seem to publish employment stats on their website at all....

[bilbobaggins]

Do most of the posters on this thread go around offering unsolicited advice to their friends? Do you do it when the advice is massively negative? The paternalism on TLS in general is sort of hilarious.

Let your friend live his or her life. If he or she asks you for advice, give it in a neutral, non-condescending way. Encourage your friend to study hard and have a good time in school. She will likely get a job and will eventually pay back her loans, just like most law school grads, TTT or not.

[Regionality]

Do most of the posters on this thread go around offering unsolicited advice to their friends? Do you do it when the advice is massively negative? The paternalism on TLS in general is sort of hilarious.

Let your friend live his or her life. If he or she asks you for advice, give it in a neutral, non-condescending way. Encourage your friend to study hard and have a good time in school. She will likely get a job and will eventually pay back her loans, just like most law school grads, TTT or not.

It is going to be solicited, my friend....HE will get to discussing law school and asking my opinion. If he doesn't I won't give it. I want to be prepared.

Edit: You used both at the beginning

[Matthies]

The truth is I'm not 100% certain what their law school options are at this point...I KNOW that they got accepted to a low T2 school w/ no money, but I'm not sure if the deposit deadline already passed for them or if it's still an option before June 1 (also, even if it passed, sometimes schools will still let you go if you call and beg, right?) I will know more when I see him.
Then that opens up a whole other can of worms-- which is better...lower T2 no money vs. T4 half scholly. I'm sure everyone is now going to ask me what the schools are, but I won't say because that would DEFINITELY give away the identity of my friend whose feelings I am trying to SPARE not hurt more by directing them to a thread discussing their very own situation.

I'm confused

Well at this point it sounds like you really don't know that much about what your friends plans really are, which kind of makes we doubt if you know that much about what he really knows about what he is getting into or not. Look in your life you would not go to a T4, that's fine and dandy, but that's your life, not his. And the more you talk about how much you know about your friends decision the more its seems to be clear your making opinions for him based on how you feel about it the issue for you. It's his life. Point him in the right direction if you want (althought I'm still curious as to what your think the right direction is "blog" wise). but it seems you know less about what his intentions are then you do about your own. Maybe you should just ask him what they are before you tell him what they are.

[quickquestionthanks]

Advice can come contingent on probabilities...simply looking at outliers doesn't make for good advice.

But what if the outliers in reality actually far outnumber the "supposed" successful ones? Any idea what size firms most lawyers work at? Any idea how they land those jobs? Any idea how to find out that info if its not in Matrinadale? Or if its not tracked on ATL? Any idea what the median salary is for a lawyer in a specific state? By firm size? By practice area? What are you using as data points for this? Anonymous internet sources? I'm not being an ass here, I'm asking have you looked for sources OUTSIDE the "common wisdom" of people not working in the legal world before you jump on the bandwagon?

So are you saying that the conventional wisdom on TLS that TTTT's don't provide, apart from a VERY small minority of lucky students, reasonable job prospects in the legal/quasi-legal profession is incorrect?

Or are you saying that I need to do more research on this specific school?-- because just looking at the LSAC #'s are grim (and those are still from before ITE)...and the school itself doesn't seem to publish employment stats on their website at all....

Yeah...matthies is taking the other side of the coin for a rare second and for some reason people are licking his balls/her vajajay for it.

It is true, that all one needs to practice law is a JD, and thus where they obtain it is irrelevant if the plan is to acquire clients through networking and start one's own practice. Not only does this require entrepreneurial spirit (which 98% of people honestly do not have), but it also requires that person to be competent enough to convince said clients into paying said person.

The harsh reality is that most people who have to take the LSAT 3 times to get into a 4th tier law school simply have neither the work ethic nor the intellect to create such a career for themselves. This is why matthies advice is a bit disingenuous and you should continue to prepare how to talk to your friend about it.

I would reiterate, though, that your friend is unlikely to listen to you. Thus, email your friend links to sites like these.

[Mr. Matlock]

FWIW I talked a friend of mine into not going into getting a full time MBA.

Well done sir!! I had almost all but forgotten the MBA option. You're friend will certainly owe you big time for this great advice!!

You are a true friend!

[Regionality]

The truth is I'm not 100% certain what their law school options are at this point...I KNOW that they got accepted to a low T2 school w/ no money, but I'm not sure if the deposit deadline already passed for them or if it's still an option before June 1 (also, even if it passed, sometimes schools will still let you go if you call and beg, right?) I will know more when I see him.
Then that opens up a whole other can of worms-- which is better...lower T2 no money vs. T4 half scholly. I'm sure everyone is now going to ask me what the schools are, but I won't say because that would DEFINITELY give away the identity of my friend whose feelings I am trying to SPARE not hurt more by directing them to a thread discussing their very own situation.

I'm confused

Well at this point it sounds like you really don't know that much about what your friends plans really are, which kind of makes we doubt if you know that much about what he really knows about what he is getting into or not. Look in your life you would not go to a T4, that's fine and dandy, but that's your life, not his. And the more you talk about how much you know about your friends decision the more its seems to be clear your making opinions for him based on how you feel about it the issue for you. It's his life. Point him in the right direction if you want (althought I'm still curious as to what your think the right direction is "blog" wise). but it seems you know less about what his intentions are then you do about your own. Maybe you should just ask him what they are before you tell him what they are.

Maybe I will....I mean I know a lot about their situation, just not the latest updates. But you're definitely correct that I will need to play it by ear.

It's a tough situation I'm in, and my friends and family in real life, all of whom have very little concept of what the legal market is like right now, tell me I should just shut up and say nothing and just be happy for them because they are happy for themselves.

...that is like watching a car crash. OK, debt isn't the worst thing that can happen to someone. We live in a society where someone cannot go to jail for debt and the loans people take out for law school are flexible and no one has to pay back more than 15% of their income and there's IBR and then there's the fact that sometimes people just need to go to school to find out it was useless for them.

But if I say nothing, how will I feel three years from now if in the end he really has no legal job prospects whatsoever and a mountain of debt? I don't know how I'll feel...it won't be good though.

[quickquestionthanks]

FWIW I talked a friend of mine into not going into getting a full time MBA.

Well done sir!! I had almost all but forgotten the MBA option. You're friend will certainly owe you big time for this great advice!!

You are a true friend!

I'm guessing sarcasm?

If what you said to your friend was "go get a job where they'll pay for you to get an executive MBA instead" then you just saved your friend upwards of $200,000-300,000 depending on what his/her salary was to begin with. So yes, you are a true friend.

[cubswin]

It's a tricky situation. I have people tell me they or someone they know is attending John Marshall all the time and have gotten pretty good at avoiding a discussion of the school's reputation. One girl threw me for a loop recently when she told me her cousin was attending JMU. After a friendly, non-elitist reply, the girl asked flat out asked me, "That's one of the best schools, right?" I had no idea what to say. The best I could come up with was "I think it's generally pretty respected in Chicago."

[Mr. Matlock]

Yeah...matthies is taking the other side of the coin for a rare second and for some reason people are licking his balls/her vajajay for it.

No, they just realize he's lived through all of this and knows of what he speaks. They realize 0L posters like you are likely to re-hashing the shit from other peoples ass and call it the truth. You think you know so much yet are destined to find out in 3 years that you really didn't know shit.

HTH

[lostjake]

FWIW I talked a friend of mine into not going into getting a full time MBA.

Well done sir!! I had almost all but forgotten the MBA option. You're friend will certainly owe you big time for this great advice!!

You are a true friend!

You must not understand how MBAs work or the current market for hiring MBAs.

[Regionality]

Yeah...matthies is taking the other side of the coin for a rare second and for some reason people are licking his balls/her vajajay for it.

No, they just realize he's lived through all of this and knows of what he speaks. They realize 0L posters like you are likely to re-hashing the shit from other peoples ass and call it the truth. You think you know so much yet are destined to find out in 3 years that you really didn't know shit.

HTH

Unnecessary.

[Regionality]

It's a tricky situation. I have people tell me they or someone they know is attending John Marshall all the time and have gotten pretty good at avoiding a discussion of the school's reputation. One girl threw me for a loop recently when she told me her cousin was attending JMU. After a friendly, non-elitist reply, the girl asked flat out asked me, "That's one of the best schools, right?" I had no idea what to say. The best I could come up with was "I think it's generally pretty respected in Chicago."

JMU is a perfect example of the school he's going to. DePaul Chicago, no money, is a perfect example of the school he chose not to go to....(whether those are the real schools I shan't say, but let's use them as starting point for discussion)

[Mr. Matlock]

FWIW I talked a friend of mine into not going into getting a full time MBA.

Well done sir!! I had almost all but forgotten the MBA option. You're friend will certainly owe you big time for this great advice!!

You are a true friend!

I'm guessing sarcasm?

If what you said to your friend was "go get a job where they'll pay for you to get an executive MBA instead" then you just saved your friend upwards of $200,000-300,000 depending on what his/her salary was to begin with. So yes, you are a true friend.

Oh yes, I meant every word of it. I can't help opening up the Los Angeles want adds and looking at the thousands of great paying opportunities for kids with MBA's. Plus, it doesn't matter where you get your MBA from either, so it truly is a win win situation. I'm calling U of Phoenix on-line today!! You'd be wise to follow son.

[quickquestionthanks]

Yeah...matthies is taking the other side of the coin for a rare second and for some reason people are licking his balls/her vajajay for it.

No, they just realize he's lived through all of this and knows of what he speaks. They realize 0L posters like you are likely to re-hashing the shit from other peoples ass and call it the truth. You think you know so much yet are destined to find out in 3 years that you really didn't know shit.

HTH

Yeah, or that we know someone who went to New York Law School, graduated 3 years ago, and are still making the same salary at the Legal Aid job that took them six months to get and are still $180k in debt and pretty miserable. But nice try asshole.