Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE Forum

[WrappedUpInBooks]

I referred a friend to TLS. He says he reads it all the time. But he's still going to a TTT on the other side of the country intending to practice back on this side when he's done...

[LurkerNoMore]

You're not going to talk this person out of going to school. The best thing you can do at this point is be supportive. Share their enthusiasm and use it as a launching point for giving some helpful advice. Discuss how brutal it is out there for everyone and then mention the following:

1. Getting to Maybe
2. The importance of outlining/organizing information
3. The importance of practice exams
4. The importance of getting to know professors
5. Discuss how to network from day one

In other words, talk about how to make the most out of the situations. If you don't have anything useful in that department, a simple "I'm happy to see you excited about this" will suffice before moving on to other topics.

[lostjake]

In 3 years when they're sleeping in their parents basement with 150k of debt and no job prospects are you going to feel better that you patted their ego for one day or that you at least attempted to try to talk them out of it? Knowing what you do now about how real TTTTs work, what would you want someone else to do if the situation was reversed?

I guess it matters if the person is really a friend or not. Usually you talk honestly to friends.

[CanadianWolf]

Was your friend accepted to other law schools?
Why did your friend apply to this law school?
What are your friend's career goals?
Many law students are realistic about future opportunities & understand that a solo practice and/or office sharing arrangement are the most likely options.

[xyzzzzzzzz]

..

[holydonkey]

Direct him to these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-_wDwmOQ1U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS5QTKkc ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfTyF_p1 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRkTx-3X ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqYJsk_z ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zsTHY4g ... re=related

[JOThompson]

There is nothing you can realistically do to dissuade him from attending a T3/T4. I know, I moved heaven and earth to steer my good friend away from thomas cooley, and he's proud to be bottom 1/3 this year. The best thing you can do, as another poster suggested, is to prepare him for success at his particular school (Getting to Maybe, 1L of a Ride, etc. )

[Grizz]

Tell your friend not to go, outlining the risks. It will be really awkward and he will hate you. In three years, call your friend and say "I told you so" when he's getting food stamps. You will have lost a friend, but that "I told you so" feeling is just so good.

[ShibaDan]

ITT we realize being a douche in real life is not okay, but doing it anonymously on the internet is a-ok. good luck with your friend, for some people there is simply no convincing.

This made me lol because of its QFT factor.

But seriously, it's true. Send them here and let them get what they want from it. Harsh as it may be if you take the advice here with a grain (or spoonful) of salt it tends to be somewhat decen

[minuit]

i know a girl who got off the waitlist at FL coastal, then failed out her first semester. the school is letting her come back this fall semester to "start over".... the last time i talked to her, i finally sent her a link to TLS. who knows if she read it... either way, it won't make a difference! when she asked and i told her where i was going, she didn't even know which city it was in.

my point being... don't lie, just don't go out of your way to feign excitement for them.

[stintez]

Hey folks,

So let's keep this one civil. I need advice on the best course of action. I'm going to be seeing an old, close friend for the first time in a while who will be attending a TTTT school. In most likelihood, we will talk about law schools and my friend will ask me for advice. My friend is excited about going to law school, but doesn't have any friends/family in the industry and certainly doesn't hang out on TLS. I think s/he has very little idea about how terrible the legal market is out there, and thinks his/her scholly of 20k/yr is amazing....despite going into more than 100k in debt to attend this school (plus lost opportunity from not working)

If s/he asks me for advice about law school in general, but already has plans on attending a TTTT, how is the best way to proceed? Should I bite my tongue and just tell him/her it's great? Should I be honest and risk offending him/her? Should I phrase things a certain way?

I think they are pretty committed to the school, so if they tell me they are FOR SURE going, is there other advice I can give to a TTTTer?

Please, be nice and offer constructive advice! My friends and family don't quite understand my concerns regarding the risk of attending such a law school, so I felt asking the TLS community might prove useful.

Let them know the truth and also let them know if they do well they can transfer to a better school.

[traehekat]

There is nothing you can realistically do to dissuade him from attending a T3/T4. I know, I moved heaven and earth to steer my good friend away from Thomas Cooley, and he's proud to be bottom 1/3 this year. The best thing you can do, as another poster suggested, is to prepare him for success at his particular school (Getting to Maybe, 1L of a Ride, etc. )

I have a friend in the same position (he will be attending Cooley in the Fall) and I have been doing exactly this - pointing him in the direction of typical 0L reading material (GTM, PLS, LSC, etc.) and showing him all the great topics on here regarding law school success. Any "dissuading" I have done has been in the form of generalities - "law school is a huge investment," "the economy is horrible," "graduates at top schools are having trouble getting jobs," etc. This way, I figure he is getting the message without me actually ripping apart Cooley, but alas, he is still set on going. Paying sticker, as well.

[Matthies]

The best thing you can do for your friend is let him know how knowledge you are on this subject as opposed to him. This is best done by listing all the irrefutable following facts:

1. no one had ever, in the history of law, actually graduated from TTTT school and gone on to be a lawyer.
2. There are no jobs out there anywhere, even at Wal-Mart as a greeter for a TTTT grad
3. Those TTTT grads that have gone on to actually practice law and tell about it should be ignored completely because they are the exception to the rule, and according to #1 they don't actually exist.
4. The single best source of information on the legal profession comes from anonymous internet sources comprised mostly of OL's who have never been to law school much less looked for employment as a lawyer
5. Under no circumstances whatsoever should your friend talk to real practicing lawyers, alumni, or anyone in the flied of law in the city or as graduates from the law school he is attending
6. He will graduate with 300k worth of debt and no one in the history of legal profession has ever been able to pay that back
7. He should get all his news about hiring from Above the Law because it covers the entire span of legal employment for the entire country and is run by top notch professional legal analysts
8. He should never join any local bar associations, venture out of school, nor read any reputable trade magazines for information on the legal profession. these are to be ignored at ALL COSTS.
9. The statistics clearly show all lawyers either make 160k or 40k per the bi-modal graph, and he should just ignore all those numbers in the middle because they really don't exist.
10. He should only take the advice of OLs and people who say they are lawyers on JDU/OXOX because obviously from the professionalism of their posts and reasoned explanations of why they don't have jobs they are the cream of the profession and know everything about the legal world.
11. Under no circumstances should he ever consider himself an individual, he must solely look at the statistics because all law students are exactly the same.
12. Finally you must make sure he understands just how hard it is to get a legal job. Point him to the WSJ article where the NU grad sent out FIFTY! resumes then moved back into his parents basement. Or the NPR story about the Georgetown grad who had to give up his dreams or working for the UN. Obviously if these people work that hard and can find nothing he is doomed.
13. The vast majority of new lawyers and all lawyers work for firms with 100 or more lawyers, and the stats clearly say TTTT grades never end up here (ignore any websites of law firms that he might show you with TTTT grads working there, referring him to #1 and telling him they don't actually exist).

This is really the best thing you can do for your friend. After you have laid out all the facts, your friend will realize you don't know much about how the legal profession actually works either, and will stop listing to your advice on how his future will unfold. This is the best result for both of you.

[Mattalones]

I have friends doing the same thing and they're going to be fine. I am REALLY surprised to see that the question "What are your friend's career goals?" only came up once after reading both pages of this thread.

There are a lot of people from all ranks of law schools who don't care if they will ever pay back their debt. They just care about being able to handle the payments and, with IBR, this is a fine view for people to take. TTTTers might want to do local govt work, which will make them a living if they take IBR.

Also, I feel that you are giving yourself and this lunch meeting too much credit. Keep in mind that your friend is going to go through 3 years at their TTTT, where they will get a very good sense of what the prospects are. If Biglaw never even gets put on his/her radar, who the F*** cares if it isn't an option; can't lose what you never had/sought, right?

If you are going to tell your friend anything, it should be to look into IBR and to get to know the career office people well. He'll/She'll figure out what's up if he/she is savvy. It's not like this person is going to a better school any way, so chill and just guide your friend to realism, not it's often confused counterpart: cynicism.

[Always Credited]

The best thing you can do for your friend is let him know how knowledge you are on this subject as opposed to him. This is best done by listing all the irrefutable following facts:

1. no one had ever, in the history of law, actually graduated from TTTT school and gone on to be a lawyer.
2. There are no jobs out there anywhere, even at Wal-Mart as a greeter for a TTTT grad
3. Those TTTT grads that have gone on to actually practice law and tell about it should be ignored completely because they are the exception to the rule, and according to #1 they don't actually exist.
4. The single best source of information on the legal profession comes from anonymous internet sources comprised mostly of OL's who have never been to law school much less looked for employment as a lawyer
5. Under no circumstances whatsoever should your friend talk to real practicing lawyers, alumni, or anyone in the flied of law in the city or as graduates from the law school he is attending
6. He will graduate with 300k worth of debt and no one in the history of legal profession has ever been able to pay that back
7. He should get all his news about hiring from Above the Law because it covers the entire span of legal employment for the entire country and is run by top notch professional legal analysts
8. He should never join any local bar associations, venture out of school, nor read any reputable trade magazines for information on the legal profession. these are to be ignored at ALL COSTS.
9. The statistics clearly show all lawyers either make 160k or 40k per the bi-modal graph, and he should just ignore all those numbers in the middle because they really don't exist.
10. He should only take the advice of OLs and people who say they are lawyers on JDU/OXOX because obviously from the professionalism of their posts and reasoned explanations of why they don't have jobs they are the cream of the profession and know everything about the legal world.
11. Under no circumstances should he ever consider himself an individual, he must solely look at the statistics because all law students are exactly the same.
12. Finally you must make sure he understands just how hard it is to get a legal job. Point him to the WSJ article where the NU grad sent out FIFTY! resumes then moved back into his parents basement. Or the NPR story about the Georgetown grad who had to give up his dreams or working for the UN. Obviously if these people work that hard and can find nothing he is doomed.
13. The vast majority of new lawyers and all lawyers work for firms with 100 or more lawyers, and the stats clearly say TTTT grades never end up here (ignore any websites of law firms that he might show you with TTTT grads working there, referring him to #1 and telling him they don't actually exist).

This is really the best thing you can do for your friend. After you have laid out all the facts, your friend will realize you don't know much about how the legal profession actually works either, and will stop listing to your advice on how his future will unfold. This is the best result for both of you.

180

[CanadianWolf]

@Matthies: You are probably the most level headed poster on this website. Reality eludes many without real world legal experience. Many of the most successful attorneys that I know attended & graduated from law schools rarely discussed here.

[lostjake]

yeah, its not like those government lawyering jobs are hard to get or anything. Unless you meant going to work at the post office to get IBR, and if so why did you go to law school anyway? I'm failing to see how going to a TTTT is ever a good investment unless you have family/connections who can get you a job afterwards.

[JTX]

@Matthies: You are probably the most level headed poster on this website. Reality eludes many without real world legal experience. Many of the most successful attorneys that I know attended & graduated from law schools rarely discussed here.

matthies has no idea what he's talking about. obviously, OP is superior to his friend and such a stupid person needs to listen to the smarter guy. i always take as gospel the advice of those who have higher LSAT/GPA combos or get into T1. they are better human beings.
^^^ flame.

@ OP, leave it be. you'll come off as a douche because you'll be acting like a douche. if you want to run people's lives for them, run for congress. hth.

[Mattalones]

yeah, its not like those government lawyering jobs are hard to get or anything.

Whatever the job type is ... that is what he/she will get. The larger point is that your friend will learn WAY MORE about his options from 3 years of law school much more than having lunch with you. You already know he is going to go. Get over yourself!

[lostjake]

Do any of you actually know someone who graduated from Cooley or a TTTT? I literally know someone who graduated from there and is living in his parents basement with over 150k of student loans and no job. Hes 35ish. The only good part of this story is that he doesn't have any kids. Do you think he'd want you to go back in that time machine and be a douche and tell him to STFO of Cooley?

Just because you know someone who graduated from a TTTT that is 'doing well' doesn't mean anything. I could go down to the casino and roll the dice with $150k and statistically it would be a better bet than going to a TTTT.

Like I said, if he's actually your friend you should try to talk him out of it. If he's not really a friend, you probably shouldn't care anyway.

[lostjake]

yeah, its not like those government lawyering jobs are hard to get or anything.

Whatever the job type is ... that is what he/she will get. The larger point is that your friend will learn WAY MORE about his options from 3 years of law school much more than having lunch with you. You already know he is going to go. Get over yourself!

That makes no sense. Its like saying you should go to prison for three years to learn about your job options after prison, when TCR is not to go in the first place.

[Regionality]

yeah, its not like those government lawyering jobs are hard to get or anything.

Whatever the job type is ... that is what he/she will get. The larger point is that your friend will learn WAY MORE about his options from 3 years of law school much more than having lunch with you. You already know he is going to go. Get over yourself!

1) I don't know he is going, he hasn't gone yet so how can I know he's going...he's simply deposited somewhere
2) "Whatever" the job type is might be gainfully unemployed or working in a job that is neither JD Required nor JD preferred
3) Learning about his options during 35k/yr in expenses is an expensive way to learn about their options
4) You get over yourself! haha...what are you talking about? I'm just seeking advice.

[Mattalones]

... and going to a casino with $150,000 on a red roulette square is going to give you better odd than BigLaw from T14s this year (and true for most of the T14 even in good economies). It sounds to me like you might go with BigLaw as a goal anyway, though. Am I wrong?

Also, what you say about "just knowing a success story from a TTTT doesn't prove anything about TTTTs in general" is true in the same way that you knowing a 35yr old Cooley grad who lives in his parents basement doesn't prove anything about TTTTs in general. Most lawyers graduate from random-ass schools and most lawyers make a decent living. You can't ignore the facts.

People from TTTTs aren't as marketable as they could be, but they can still get something that makes life doable with IBR.

To address another of your points, "some people just can't be persuaded to change their course of action." You may well fall into this category. It really sounds like you're looking forward to sticking it to your friends who might be in a situation like the OP's friend.

(sigh for this)

On the flip side, I'll be going to a highly ranked LS either just outside or toward the bottom of the T14 (still waiting on some things). So, I definitely understand the point about marketability and that there is a correlation between certain types of career prospects and LS prestige. Don't get me wrong. I just feel that this plays into elitism, which is just douchey.

[Regionality]

Do any of you actually know someone who graduated from Cooley or a TTTT? I literally know someone who graduated from there and is living in his parents basement with over 150k of student loans and no job. Hes 35ish. The only good part of this story is that he doesn't have any kids. Do you think he'd want you to go back in that time machine and be a douche and tell him to STFO of Cooley?

Just because you know someone who graduated from a TTTT that is 'doing well' doesn't mean anything. I could go down to the casino and roll the dice with $150k and statistically it would be a better bet than going to a TTTT.

Like I said, if he's actually your friend you should try to talk him out of it. If he's not really a friend, you probably shouldn't care anyway.

Yea, he's a friend...we are ooold friends, so the type that you don't talk to on as regular a basis as either of us would like, but we used to spend a LOT of time together so there's a close history there...

My problem is I've never been very good at phrasing potentially insulting advice to people...I always come off as judgmental or just awkward.

My worry is that there is seriously zero to little chance he will get a job in the legal/quasi-legal market at graduation...

To answer a few posters questions about career goals, he wants to go into environmental/international/immigration law or academia and is completely clueless about how tough those are to get into (in his defense, so was I until I started following these blogs once I decided law school was for me)...

[Mattalones]

4) You get over yourself! haha...what are you talking about? I'm just seeking advice.

Regionality, I am so sorry about that comment. I confused your posts with lostjake's comments. You seem like a level headed person.

lostjake: get over yourself!


Half-kidding now that I realized how silly of a mistake I made by conflating the comments of two posters