Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

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AffirmativeOffense
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby AffirmativeOffense » Thu May 27, 2010 7:27 am

I have personally talked 3 people out of going to law school after learning that private TTTs at full price were their only options.

Do your friend a favor and be as blunt as possible about it. Don't play around. Your friend's life is literally about to be ruined. You shouldn't care if he/she thinks you're an asshole. I personally wouldn't be able to sleep at night unless I did everything possible to prevent someone from ruining their life. There's an asymmetrical flow of information regarding employment stats (fudging #s, etc), so it's your duty as someone in-the-know to inform him/her.

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trialjunky
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby trialjunky » Thu May 27, 2010 7:37 am

AffirmativeOffense wrote:I have personally talked 3 people out of going to law school after learning that private TTTs at full price were their only options.

Do your friend a favor and be as blunt as possible about it. Don't play around. Your friend's life is literally about to be ruined. You shouldn't care if he/she thinks you're an asshole. I personally wouldn't be able to sleep at night unless I did everything possible to prevent someone from ruining their life. There's an asymmetrical flow of information regarding employment stats (fudging #s, etc), so it's your duty as someone in-the-know to inform him/her.



I dont think you should talk them out of it depending on the school (cooley, barry and coastal the exception). However, you should let them know what you've learned about it and let them make their own decisions. These are adults. If they want to go, they should go. If this is the best they can do and they really want to be a lawyer then they have no other option. However, they should go with their eyes wide open and understand:
-scholarships at TTT/TTTT tend to be sketchy as hell
-they need to finish off in the top of their class if they want ANY options at graduation
-they need to hit the floor running when it comes to networking in LS
-they're going to have massive debt and wont initially have the money to pay it off

I work at a shitlaw. You start of here in the high 30's/lower 40's. In 3 years time, you can make it up to the 60's. In 5 years time, you can make it up to the 70's. It's not the initial balling paycheck but its pretty damn good especially in Florida where COL is so cheap. It's not ideal but it isn't poverty either.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby quickquestionthanks » Fri May 28, 2010 3:48 am

AffirmativeOffense wrote:I have personally talked 3 people out of going to law school after learning that private TTTs at full price were their only options.

Do your friend a favor and be as blunt as possible about it. Don't play around. Your friend's life is literally about to be ruined. You shouldn't care if he/she thinks you're an asshole. I personally wouldn't be able to sleep at night unless I did everything possible to prevent someone from ruining their life. There's an asymmetrical flow of information regarding employment stats (fudging #s, etc), so it's your duty as someone in-the-know to inform him/her.


I was really expecting that comment to breathe new life into this thread.

Perhaps you can share how these conversations went...what the people's expectations were beforehand...how close you are to these people...

I'm really interested in this thread because I started a similar one about a friend who quit a $55-60k+ benefits job in order to go to a T2 at sticker. He had done absolutely no research and we've known each other a long time, but was still pretty offended by me bringing it up.

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Cara
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Cara » Fri May 28, 2010 4:01 am

Friends don't let friends attend TTTs and ruin their lives.

You may offend them but if you really are their friend you have to try your best to stop it.

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trialjunky
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby trialjunky » Fri May 28, 2010 7:03 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:
AffirmativeOffense wrote:I have personally talked 3 people out of going to law school after learning that private TTTs at full price were their only options.

Do your friend a favor and be as blunt as possible about it. Don't play around. Your friend's life is literally about to be ruined. You shouldn't care if he/she thinks you're an asshole. I personally wouldn't be able to sleep at night unless I did everything possible to prevent someone from ruining their life. There's an asymmetrical flow of information regarding employment stats (fudging #s, etc), so it's your duty as someone in-the-know to inform him/her.


I was really expecting that comment to breathe new life into this thread.

Perhaps you can share how these conversations went...what the people's expectations were beforehand...how close you are to these people...

I'm really interested in this thread because I started a similar one about a friend who quit a $55-60k+ benefits job in order to go to a T2 at sticker. He had done absolutely no research and we've known each other a long time, but was still pretty offended by me bringing it up.


Details on how that went????

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GATORTIM
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby GATORTIM » Fri May 28, 2010 7:53 am

IBR changes my perspective on attending a strong TTT w/o $$$$

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Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Fri May 28, 2010 9:20 am

Your friend will probably still get a job after law school- so let him do what he wants.
I mean you could remind him how difficult it is to get a job these days- but don't act all condescending.

I know this next statement is purely anecdotal but I don't care.
Most people I know who attend TTT law schools really don't have what it takes mentally to get a good score on the LSAT (160+). The only way I can see them breaking 160 is through pure luck (guessing the right answer a few times when they have no clue what the answer is.. or accidentally filling in the wrong bubble with the right answer when their faulty logic processes brought them to an answer which is flat out wrong.) My mom is a real estate agent and has to deal with TTT attorneys on a regular basis (seen them in action before, they're shitty at interpreting contracts...)... and I know people who graduated from TTT law schools with jobs but nothing even close to BigLaw.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby quickquestionthanks » Fri May 28, 2010 3:35 pm

trialjunky wrote:Details on how that went????



Well, at the time, my best offer was the same school with a little over $65k guaranteed in scholly. Plus, I have legal family ties to the community, where he has none. Even still, the prospect of $120k in debt was making me rethink. So I was able to frame it in a way that wasn't entirely insulting. Basically the message was: if I don't want to go there with money, you should be wary of going there at sticker.

I explained that there are a lot of people from NYU are having trouble looking for jobs, and that our OCI will happen just 15 months from now. That the biglaw firms from that market hire only the top few students from the school, and that every one else is making $40k-70k, which is hard to live on with $2,400/month loan payments.

His response was: "what else are you going to do?"

My response was: "go get your job back."

Our mutual friend said "Wow, that's really depressing. Thanks."

And then he sulked for the rest of the night.

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Grizz
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Grizz » Fri May 28, 2010 11:00 pm

GATORTIM wrote:IBR changes my perspective on attending a strong TTT w/o $$$$


You're cool with paying fat sums to Uncle Sam for 25 years? Hope you don't want to buy a house or a car or send your kids to college anytime soon.

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romothesavior
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby romothesavior » Fri May 28, 2010 11:11 pm

rad law wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:IBR changes my perspective on attending a strong TTT w/o $$$$


You're cool with paying fat sums to Uncle Sam for 25 years? Hope you don't want to buy a house or a car or send your kids to college anytime soon.


+1. And what is 15% of zero? You can't pay back your loans if you are unemployed.

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Matthies
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Matthies » Fri May 28, 2010 11:20 pm

rad law wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:IBR changes my perspective on attending a strong TTT w/o $$$$


send your kids to college anytime soon.


People sending thier kids to college is what got us into this mess. Damn social climibing middle class, I saw a Lexis at the country club today, at first I thought is was just an employee, but no, it was a freaking new memebr. Stay in you classes people, stop trying to move up, your killing us landed gentry.

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Grizz
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Grizz » Fri May 28, 2010 11:24 pm

Matthies wrote:
rad law wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:IBR changes my perspective on attending a strong TTT w/o $$$$


send your kids to college anytime soon.


People sending thier kids to college is what got us into this mess. Damn social climibing middle class, I saw a Lexis at the country club today, at first I thought is was just an employee, but no, it was a freaking new memebr. Stay in you classes people, stop trying to move up, your killing us landed gentry.


Lexis? That's how you should have picked him out, man. So nouveau riche.

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Matthies
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Matthies » Fri May 28, 2010 11:45 pm

rad law wrote:
Matthies wrote:
rad law wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:IBR changes my perspective on attending a strong TTT w/o $$$$


send your kids to college anytime soon.


People sending thier kids to college is what got us into this mess. Damn social climibing middle class, I saw a Lexis at the country club today, at first I thought is was just an employee, but no, it was a freaking new memebr. Stay in you classes people, stop trying to move up, your killing us landed gentry.


Lexis? That's how you should have picked him out, man. So nouveau riche.


Yes, that's why i thought he was staff. Probably has a house full of Ikea too.

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Grizz
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Grizz » Fri May 28, 2010 11:58 pm

Matthies wrote:Yes, that's why i thought he was staff. Probably has a house full of Ikea too.


If your furniture isn't mostly heirlooms, you're TTT. Duh.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby GATORTIM » Sat May 29, 2010 10:32 am

romothesavior wrote:
rad law wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:IBR changes my perspective on attending a strong TTT w/o $$$$


You're cool with paying fat sums to Uncle Sam for 25 years? Hope you don't want to buy a house or a car or send your kids to college anytime soon.


+1. And what is 15% of zero? You can't pay back your loans if you are unemployed.


Why would I be unemployed? I have been making no less than $65k/yr since undergrad for the last 7 years. If I have to take a lower paying job (I have no interest in the corporate culture of mid-level or BigLaw) for a few years, IBR makes this a viable option if I have 60-90k in debt.

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Grizz
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Grizz » Sat May 29, 2010 11:29 am

GATORTIM wrote:Why would I be unemployed? I have been making no less than $65k/yr since undergrad for the last 7 years. If I have to take a lower paying job (I have no interest in the corporate culture of mid-level or BigLaw) for a few years, IBR makes this a viable option if I have 60-90k in debt.


You're looking at paying about 10% of your gross right off the top. By any measure, this is a lot. Then you get hit with taxes. If you go to Stetson, I really hope local govt. will end this de facto hiring freeze so you can get the 10 yr. instead of 25 yr. plan.

AffirmativeOffense
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby AffirmativeOffense » Sat May 29, 2010 1:10 pm

GATORTIM wrote:IBR changes my perspective on attending a strong TTT w/o $$$$


That shoddy analysis underscores why you are attending a TTT without a scholarship. Even though your monthly payments will be low, you will be in substantial debt for 25 years. Your debt:income ratio will likely be trashed during that time, ruining any chance you have at home ownership before the age of 50. Your monthly payment is only one way that heavy educational debt destroys your life.

To the above poster who wanted to know how those discussions happened: I knew all 3 very well. With one of them, it was a process; it didn't happen overnight. The old WSJ article on employment prospects is what really drove the point home to her. I did this in a non-condescending way, of course.

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romothesavior
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby romothesavior » Sat May 29, 2010 1:39 pm

And to Regionality, directing them here (or even JDU, though I know that is harsh) is TCR. It is not your job to talk them down from the cliff; simply give them the information necessary to make a good decision. It is their life, not yours. If they still take the plunge, then that was their own decision.

I have directed a few people here, and I think one of them changed their mind about law school because of it. In addition, I sort of nudged him gently on this issue, telling him a retake might be a good idea. Him and I have had probably 6-8 classes together and he is really sharp. The kid has like a 3.9, and I thought he'd score a 170 or so because he is so logic and reasoning oriented. Instead, he ended up with a score in the lower 160s, and I was shocked. I think he may not have prepared enough, or perhaps he has some sort of testing issues. In any case, he had settled on a big scholarship (full, I think) at a T2, but I knew this kid could benefit from a retake. He was dead-set on going this fall, despite my hints that a re-take might be good. I told him about this site one day (just in casual conversation), and within two weeks he had changed his mind. He is taking a year off to work and study for the LSAT, and I'd be surprised if he isn't T14 bound. The only bad thing is that him and I have had a friendly academic rivalry for the past four years, and now he'll leapfrog me and end up going to UVA or Penn or something. :evil:

So like I said, just nudge him in our direction and if he does his homework, hopefully he'll make the right call. If he goes ahead anyway, then that is his decision and he'll have to live with it.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby GATORTIM » Sat May 29, 2010 3:09 pm

AffirmativeOffense wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:IBR changes my perspective on attending a strong TTT w/o $$$$


That shoddy analysis underscores why you are attending a TTT without a scholarship. Even though your monthly payments will be low, you will be in substantial debt for 25 years. Your debt:income ratio will likely be trashed during that time, ruining any chance you have at home ownership before the age of 50. Your monthly payment is only one way that heavy educational debt destroys your life.


I'm attending the TTT for reasons that have nothing to do with analytical skills (employment, family, etc). Sure I could have retaken the LSAT, but my current situation does not afford me enough free time to study and ensure a substantially higher score that would have made the retake worth it.

The problem with blanket statements that some TLSers use to buttress their arguments directed at an individual is that they typically have no fucking clue who they are talking to (let alone about). Notice my post says "my perspective" while your rebuttal makes many assumptions about my situation and you presume to have some knowledge of my financial condition ("you/your" is used six times in your post). Perhaps you would be better served the shutting fuck up about things which you have absolutely zero insight (me) because it is this type of analysis that will get you in a world of trouble in real life, regardless of where you went to law school.

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romothesavior
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby romothesavior » Sat May 29, 2010 3:48 pm

GATORTIM wrote:Perhaps you would be better served the shutting fuck up about things which you have absolutely zero insight (me) because it is this type of analysis that will get you in a world of trouble in real life, regardless of where you went to law school.


--ImageRemoved--

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Regionality
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Regionality » Sat May 29, 2010 3:50 pm

romothesavior wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:Perhaps you would be better served the shutting fuck up about things which you have absolutely zero insight (me) because it is this type of analysis that will get you in a world of trouble in real life, regardless of where you went to law school.


--ImageRemoved--


Do you always make these or do you find them?

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Grizz
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Grizz » Sat May 29, 2010 3:57 pm

Regionality wrote:Do you always make these or do you find them?


http://www.memegenerator.net

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romothesavior
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby romothesavior » Sat May 29, 2010 3:58 pm

I usually make mine and I made that one.

I'm not attacking you, Gatortim. I just thought your post was hilarious and needed to be captured in meme form.

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Regionality
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby Regionality » Sat May 29, 2010 3:58 pm

rad law wrote:
Regionality wrote:Do you always make these or do you find them?


http://www.memegenerator.net


HAHA awesome. I had no idea...I'm such a noob.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE

Postby GATORTIM » Sat May 29, 2010 4:32 pm

romothesavior wrote:I usually make mine and I made that one.

I'm not attacking you, Gatortim. I just thought your post was hilarious and needed to be captured in meme form.


I'm on like my 10th corona and saw that pick and now I can't stop laughing while staring at my BB by the pool, hahaha




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