Columbia v. Chicago

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bloodonthetracks
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby bloodonthetracks » Wed May 12, 2010 4:17 pm

doyleoil, what do you have to say about the culture of UChi?

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doyleoil
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby doyleoil » Wed May 12, 2010 4:28 pm

bloodonthetracks wrote:doyleoil, what do you have to say about the culture of UChi?


If you're really only in this to land any old 160k job, then you're better served going to columbia or nyu. But then again, if that's the case, the chance you'll get shitcanned before you pay off your loans goes up a lot, in my opinion.

U Chicago does not coddle people, but I doubt many law schools do. Now, I agree, old school, hide-the-ball Socratic would be exhausting and demoralizing if it were coming at you non-stop all 1L year. But it's not non-stop at U. Chicago. There are a couple old school professors that fit that mold. You kind of have to have a sense of humor about it, go along for the ride, and realize that you can still learn a LOT from those types. But for the most part I've had professors who are really decent human beings trying to get us to learn as much as possible (and doing a DAMN good job at it, I might add...I don't know much about other schools, but I can't imagine them having better pure TEACHERS than we do).

And yeah, people can be intense. It's a shitty time out there, and we all want to do well. Nature of the game. YOU have to do the job of staying within yourself and appreciating that there are a lot of decent people around you who want to learn how to do their jobs right too. Sure some of them will drive you nuts. But most of them won't (if you're not an impatient bastard like myself).

It's a freaking FANTASTIC school. The point grading system? Big deal. If you do well, it rewards you. If you don't do great, well, you're no worse off here than Columbia or NYU. The fact of the matter is, right now, below median is below median. At that point, you're lucky to be at a CCN, because you'll still get interviews, and some employers will still give you a shot.

That said, winter is way too long here, and I wish it were warmer right now. C'est la vie.

Oh, and I almost forgot. I get to listen to Richard Epstein (and sound like an idiot in front of him) once a week. Which is sweet.

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clintonius
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby clintonius » Wed May 12, 2010 5:00 pm

(He's permanent at NYU as of Fall 2010, fyi)

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doyleoil
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby doyleoil » Wed May 12, 2010 5:02 pm

clintonius wrote:(He's permanent at NYU as of Fall 2010, fyi)


he's still teaching at chicago in spring quarters, which is all any student needs to care about

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... ltime.html

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clintonius
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby clintonius » Wed May 12, 2010 5:24 pm

Oh? Noice. He's been teaching at both places for a while now, right?

Voyager
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby Voyager » Wed May 12, 2010 5:43 pm

doyleoil wrote:
bloodonthetracks wrote:doyleoil, what do you have to say about the culture of UChi?


If you're really only in this to land any old 160k job, then you're better served going to columbia or nyu. But then again, if that's the case, the chance you'll get shitcanned before you pay off your loans goes up a lot, in my opinion.

U Chicago does not coddle people, but I doubt many law schools do. Now, I agree, old school, hide-the-ball Socratic would be exhausting and demoralizing if it were coming at you non-stop all 1L year. But it's not non-stop at U. Chicago. There are a couple old school professors that fit that mold. You kind of have to have a sense of humor about it, go along for the ride, and realize that you can still learn a LOT from those types. But for the most part I've had professors who are really decent human beings trying to get us to learn as much as possible (and doing a DAMN good job at it, I might add...I don't know much about other schools, but I can't imagine them having better pure TEACHERS than we do).

And yeah, people can be intense. It's a shitty time out there, and we all want to do well. Nature of the game. YOU have to do the job of staying within yourself and appreciating that there are a lot of decent people around you who want to learn how to do their jobs right too. Sure some of them will drive you nuts. But most of them won't (if you're not an impatient bastard like myself).

It's a freaking FANTASTIC school. The point grading system? Big deal. If you do well, it rewards you. If you don't do great, well, you're no worse off here than Columbia or NYU. The fact of the matter is, right now, below median is below median. At that point, you're lucky to be at a CCN, because you'll still get interviews, and some employers will still give you a shot.

That said, winter is way too long here, and I wish it were warmer right now. C'est la vie.

Oh, and I almost forgot. I get to listen to Richard Epstein (and sound like an idiot in front of him) once a week. Which is sweet.


Right. What I said. Sounds awful. In fact, it sounds like certain other posters are better able to make a comparison than you if you think the above is normal.

This quote seems to validate what I am saying: "people can be intense. It's a shitty time out there, and we all want to do well. Nature of the game."

The point is students do not have to be shitty to each other... that is not the "nature of the game."

But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe the three former U. Chicago students I know at various schools are all wusses.

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dresden doll
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Wed May 12, 2010 6:05 pm

AppsAbound wrote:"As for Chi - I actually live in the smack middle of downtown. I will admit my general hatred of Midwest and desire to get out after 7 years in the region have a lot to do with my hatred of the city. That said, NYC >>>>> Chi, [strike]touristy or no touristy areas[/strike]. Sorry. :)"

Smack middle of downtown=touristy.
I don't know too many Chicagoans who spend much time just downtown outside of work and the occasional happy hour event. Sorry.


Uhhh, I spend the vast majority of my time outside of downtown. And I've lived in other Chicagoland areas before moving downtown for law school. Not to even mention that I've seen just about all parts of the city. I do get out quite a bit and I've been in IL for the past few years.

My opinion of Chicago wouldn't magically alter if I lived somewhere other than downtown. I dislike Midwest, remember? And last I checked, every single bit of Chicago - including non-touristy areas - was located in Midwest.

I would add sorry, but I'm thinking that might be a mite too obnoxious at this point.

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dresden doll
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Wed May 12, 2010 6:17 pm

Voyager wrote:Right. What I said. Sounds awful. In fact, it sounds like certain other posters are better able to make a comparison than you if you think the above is normal.

This quote seems to validate what I am saying: "people can be intense. It's a shitty time out there, and we all want to do well. Nature of the game."

The point is students do not have to be shitty to each other... that is not the "nature of the game."

But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe the three former U. Chicago students I know at various schools are all wusses.


Where does one start in discounting all this drivel....

Let's try it this way: hate to break it to you, but he's totally correct. It IS the nature of the game now. If you really think you're going to catch that much more of a break elsewhere, you're in for a surprise.

A regular poster here who I will not name, and who goes to UVA - you know, that beer-and-softball school where everyone's supposedly relaxed? Yeah, that one - had said repeatedly that you can walk into UVA law library on a Saturday night - in non-finals period, mind you - and find it chock-full of people feverishly studying. I'm friends outside of TLS with several UVA 1Ls. They confirm it.

More importantly, we here at UChi aren't 'shitty' towards each other. When a guy in one of the sections lost his class notes right before finals and sent out a mass email to his section mates, 30+ people responded by mailing him all of their class notes. When I haven't come to class, I've gotten notes easily. In fact, today I forgot my laptop and couldn't take notes as efficiently as I normally would. The guy that sits next to me in one of my classes is emailing me his notes, to make sure I got everything that I need. And mind you, we don't even hang out that much.

Also, one of my friends wasn't in class for three weeks last quarter because she was sick. I made sure she got what she needed.

And the above are just a few scant examples of collegiality which exists in droves in this school.

But, you're totally right - what the hell is my, as well as doyle's, first hand experience next to stories from three whole 'former UChi kids at other schools'? Nothing at all.

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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby jacko » Wed May 12, 2010 6:27 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Voyager wrote:Right. What I said. Sounds awful. In fact, it sounds like certain other posters are better able to make a comparison than you if you think the above is normal.

This quote seems to validate what I am saying: "people can be intense. It's a shitty time out there, and we all want to do well. Nature of the game."

The point is students do not have to be shitty to each other... that is not the "nature of the game."

But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe the three former U. Chicago students I know at various schools are all wusses.


Where does one start in discounting all this drivel....

Let's try it this way: hate to break it to you, but he's totally correct. It IS the nature of the game now. If you really think you're going to catch that much more of a break elsewhere, you're in for a surprise.

A regular poster here who I will not name, and who goes to UVA - you know, that beer-and-softball school where everyone's supposedly relaxed? Yeah, that one - had said repeatedly that you can walk into UVA law library on a Saturday night - in non-finals period, mind you - and find it chock-full of people feverishly studying. I'm friends outside of TLS with several UVA 1Ls. They confirm it.

More importantly, we here at UChi aren't 'shitty' towards each other. When a guy in one of the sections lost his class notes right before finals and sent out a mass email to his section mates, 30+ people responded by mailing him all of their class notes. When I haven't come to class, I've gotten notes easily. In fact, today I forgot my laptop and couldn't take notes as efficiently as I normally would. The guy that sits next to me in one of my classes is emailing me his notes, to make sure I got everything that I need. And mind you, we don't even hang out that much.

Also, one of my friends wasn't in class for three weeks last quarter because she was sick. I made sure she got what she needed.

And the above are just a few scant examples of collegiality which exists in droves in this school.

But, you're totally right - what the hell is my, as well as doyle's, first hand experience next to stories from three whole 'former UChi kids at other schools'? Nothing at all.


Outstanding as usual

Voyager
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby Voyager » Wed May 12, 2010 7:17 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Voyager wrote:Right. What I said. Sounds awful. In fact, it sounds like certain other posters are better able to make a comparison than you if you think the above is normal.

This quote seems to validate what I am saying: "people can be intense. It's a shitty time out there, and we all want to do well. Nature of the game."

The point is students do not have to be shitty to each other... that is not the "nature of the game."

But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe the three former U. Chicago students I know at various schools are all wusses.


Where does one start in discounting all this drivel....

Let's try it this way: hate to break it to you, but he's totally correct. It IS the nature of the game now. If you really think you're going to catch that much more of a break elsewhere, you're in for a surprise.

A regular poster here who I will not name, and who goes to UVA - you know, that beer-and-softball school where everyone's supposedly relaxed? Yeah, that one - had said repeatedly that you can walk into UVA law library on a Saturday night - in non-finals period, mind you - and find it chock-full of people feverishly studying. I'm friends outside of TLS with several UVA 1Ls. They confirm it.

More importantly, we here at UChi aren't 'shitty' towards each other. When a guy in one of the sections lost his class notes right before finals and sent out a mass email to his section mates, 30+ people responded by mailing him all of their class notes. When I haven't come to class, I've gotten notes easily. In fact, today I forgot my laptop and couldn't take notes as efficiently as I normally would. The guy that sits next to me in one of my classes is emailing me his notes, to make sure I got everything that I need. And mind you, we don't even hang out that much.

Also, one of my friends wasn't in class for three weeks last quarter because she was sick. I made sure she got what she needed.

And the above are just a few scant examples of collegiality which exists in droves in this school.

But, you're totally right - what the hell is my, as well as doyle's, first hand experience next to stories from three whole 'former UChi kids at other schools'? Nothing at all.


Hey, all I did was read what you wrote above. You were the one who said the school was intense. And yes, I do put more stock in my three friends as they have actually had the benefit of studying at two different schools.

As for this: "Where does one start in discounting all this drivel....

Let's try it this way: hate to break it to you, but he's totally correct. It IS the nature of the game now. If you really think you're going to catch that much more of a break elsewhere, you're in for a surprise."

As I am graduating next week, I think I may have a thought or two about the law school experience. What your post above implied was that u. Chicago was intense and cometitive and that you thought this was natural. You just stated something like that again in your more recent post.

That was NOT my law school experience. Not at all. And my friends that went else where DID catch a break in comparision to Chicago.

Also, your post match up very well with descriptions of the school given to me to me by others.

So... sure, yay school pride. Get all worked up. Call my posts drivel. It's cool. Just recognize that there is a possibility that the culture of your school might be atypical and that other T10 students have a much more relaxed experience.

Seriously, I am gald you like U. Chicago. It is a great school.... but I think its reputation for being an unncessarily stressful place is well deserved: your students describe it that way, your faculty boasts of the "rigor" to the 1Ls and even YOUR POSTS imply that the place is intense and that intesity is "natura".
Last edited by Voyager on Wed May 12, 2010 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

miamiman
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby miamiman » Wed May 12, 2010 7:22 pm

Not that I really care if OP chooses Chicago or Columbia, but isn't it somewhat ridiculous to think that Chicago is any more intense right now than any other law school in the country?


You really think Michigan kids are throwing back beers, burning blunts, and shooting darts more often than kids at other T10s?

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dresden doll
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Wed May 12, 2010 7:27 pm

Voyager wrote:
Hey, all I did was read what you wrote above. You were the one who said the school was intense. And yes, I do put more stock in my three friends as they have actually had the benefit of studying at two diffeernt schools.

As for this: "Where does one start in discounting all this drivel....

Let's try it this way: hate to break it to you, but he's totally correct. It IS the nature of the game now. If you really think you're going to catch that much more of a break elsewhere, you're in for a surprise."

As I am graduating next week, I think I may have a thought or two about the law school experience. What your post above implied was that u. Chicago was iintense and cometitive and that you thought this was natural. You just stated something like that again in your more recent post.

That was NOT my law school experience. Not at all.

Also, your post match up very well with descriptions of the school given to me to me by others.

So... sure, yay school pride. Get all worked up. Call my posts drivel. It's cool. Just recognize that there is a possibility that the culture of your school might be atypical and that other T10 students have a much more relaxed experience.

Seriously, I am gald you like U. Chicago. It is a great school.... but I think its reputation for being an unncessarily stressful place is well deserved: your students describe it that way, your faculty boasts of the "rigor" to the 1Ls and even YOUR POSTS imply that the place is intense and that intesity is "natura".


I have the benefit of knowing a decent amount of T10 1Ls. None of them describes their school as relaxed.

Is it unnecessarily stressful? Quite possibly so. I never denied the existence of stress, I note. What I really take issues with is your accusation that we're uncollegial and 'shitty towards each other.' That is simply not true, at least not as far as class of 2012 is concerned.

UChi isn't perfect and I'd hardly call myself a school spirit cheerleader. But we're sociable and we're most definitely not a bunch of pricks that do what they can to take each other down.

Stress =/= douchey behavior. Really, it's true.

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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed May 12, 2010 8:30 pm

ITT: Some random idiot tries to perpetuate the stereotype that UChicago is somehow more intense than any other law school. Several 1Ls shoot him down, random idiot persists. Now, a transfer student will also say "stfu, Chicago is just like any other law school anywhere, some classes are hellish, some aren't, people are fine, life goes on."

Seriously, law school is law school.

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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby Voyager » Wed May 12, 2010 10:33 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Stress =/= douchey behavior. Really, it's true.


Yes, that is true. Note that I never said anything about douchey behavior. All I did was say that the place sounded much more stressful than other schools based on what I heard from your own students (who hated it after understanding what NYU/CLS/Harvard were like), from your faculty and from your own posts in this thread. I then quoted YOUR post (see above).

ToTransferOrNot wrote: ITT: Some random idiot tries to perpetuate the stereotype that UChicago is somehow more intense than any other law school. Several 1Ls shoot him down, random idiot persists. Now, a transfer student will also say "stfu, Chicago is just like any other law school anywhere, some classes are hellish, some aren't, people are fine, life goes on."

Seriously, law school is law school.


Heh. So now, in addition to typing "drivel" I am also a "random idiot"? Look guys, I'm not on a secret mission do to in your school's recruiting efforts. So relax. The ad hominem undermines the theme of your posts.

Your own posts seem to paint a pretty good picture of how your school operates and that is not necessarily what the experience is at other places.

I have the benefit of knowing a decent amount of T10 1Ls. None of them describes their school as relaxed.


Sure. Especially 1L year and especially in this economy. My understanding, however, is that within that stress zone U. Chicago happens to be at one end.

Institutions have different cultures. As you 1Ls progress beyond first year and meet other law students in summer jobs you'll see what I mean.

Look, you guys are happy with your choice and I am not trying to convince you not to be. The stories I heard about the scholastic environment over there sounded awful and I thought a prospective student might want to think about that reputation. Could things have dramatically changed in the past 2 years? I guess so. My point was (and is) that if I am considering two schools which offer very similar employment prospects and one prides itself on academic "rigor" and has a reputation (which you just admitted exists) for an unpleasant academic enviornment, I would probably want to go to the other place.

Additionally, this quote cracked me up : "Several 1Ls shoot him down, random idiot persists." GO GO TEAM 1L! heh.

Look, you guys need to relax. This isnt personal and what I am saying was not just conjured out of thin air.


Finally, if you want to convince prospective students that your school is NOT an awful environment to be in, saying this is not the way: "people can be intense. It's a shitty time out there, and we all want to do well. Nature of the game."

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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed May 12, 2010 10:56 pm

Perhaps you didn't catch the point that I'm a 2L, not a 1L, and I'm a transfer, so I do have this "multiple school" experience that you keep talking about. If anything, Chicago is more laid back than Wisconsin was.

Also, anyone who disagrees with your last quote is simply unrealistic.

Voyager
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby Voyager » Wed May 12, 2010 11:30 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Perhaps you didn't catch the point that I'm a 2L, not a 1L, and I'm a transfer, so I do have this "multiple school" experience that you keep talking about. If anything, Chicago is more laid back than Wisconsin was.

Also, anyone who disagrees with your last quote is simply unrealistic.



I am sure Chicago is more laid back than Wisconsin.... for a very obvious reason.

But we are not comparing Chicago to Wisconsin in this thread (see thread title) and my point was that Chicago seemed much more stressful than other schools in the T10... needlessly so... and I think some of that has to do with your grading system.

I was trying to provide some help regarding the OP's third question for this thread: "3) general atmosphere of the school (I understand that law school is competitive, but I'd like to avoid a cutthroat environment)." I had some thoughts on that and provided them.

As for that last quote... my point is that my experience was not an "intense" one when it came to my fellow students and the fact that the quote comes across as justifying (and therefore admitting the existence of) the very environment which you at other times seem to be denying.

lol... and what is it with you guys and the sarcasm, condescension and ad hominem?

Look, you guys seem sensitive about this and I really don't need to continue as the only purpose of doing so would be to antagonize you. I said my peace and I hope that something useful can be salvaged from the dialogue. I certainly think the responses you guys gave to my posts speaks volumes about your school. So thanks for that.

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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Wed May 12, 2010 11:53 pm

While I really don't have much interest in continuing this rather unproductive discussion myself, I feel compelled to reiterate that my post was, by and large, meant to address the accusation that UChi kids were 'shitty to one another.'

The issue of whether the grading system increases stress or not is rather separate from the issue of the level of collegiality with which we treat one another. You may have a point about the former; you most certainly do not have point in re: latter. You can't possibly have legitimate 'thoughts' on how cutthroat members of the community you have never belonged to are. That's where Doyle, Transfer and I (as well as other Chi students) come in as legitimate authorities.

I repeat (because it does bear repeating) that ours is a friendly school where people are quite collegial. Grading system has not had any impact on friendliness within the student body. That's my basic point. If saying so somehow speaks 'negative volumes' about the school, I'm cool with it.

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Regionality
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby Regionality » Thu May 13, 2010 12:00 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:ITT: Some random idiot tries to perpetuate the stereotype that UChicago is somehow more intense than any other law school. Several 1Ls shoot him down, random idiot persists. Now, a transfer student will also say "stfu, Chicago is just like any other law school anywhere, some classes are hellish, some aren't, people are fine, life goes on."

Seriously, law school is law school.


That last thought belongs in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=117381

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doyleoil
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby doyleoil » Thu May 13, 2010 12:09 am

Voyager wrote: "people can be intense. It's a shitty time out there, and we all want to do well. Nature of the game."


I love how you tear this quote completely out of context.

#1: I'm not here to try to convince everyone in the world to come to this school.

#2: The larger point is that all schools are more or less like this right now. If you think law school is a barrel of laughs anywhere, you're out of your mind. And if you treat it as such, you're doing it wrong. Anyone who wants to spend their time getting a grad degree in an elite playpen should go get some work experience and then come back to a top 5 b-school. I just don't think the "relative intensity" of T10 schools should be part of your decision-making process. There will be laid-back people and assholes wherever you go. That's not just what law school is. That's what life is. Everywhere. If you can't bracket out the assholes and carve out a circle of friends who you like to be around, then there's a bigger problem (and you probably won't survive long in the legal profession...or any profession where a lot of big shit is at stake).

#3: You still cannot seem to grasp that when people care about learning the material, doing well in school, and landing good jobs, sometimes they get "intense." As I said originally, you have to check yourself in those circumstances. Stay inside yourself, as it were. I personally would prefer to be in a place where a decent number of people care about learning, even if they sometimes get a little zealous in the process.

#4: If you are serious about developing habits of mind that will make you long-term successful in this profession, I think there are few better schools out there for doing that (if any).

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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Thu May 13, 2010 12:28 am

I would like to interrupt the serious business that is this thread to thank Regionality for the link. Well played.

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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby Tautology » Thu May 13, 2010 12:35 am

Regionality wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:ITT: Some random idiot tries to perpetuate the stereotype that UChicago is somehow more intense than any other law school. Several 1Ls shoot him down, random idiot persists. Now, a transfer student will also say "stfu, Chicago is just like any other law school anywhere, some classes are hellish, some aren't, people are fine, life goes on."

Seriously, law school is law school.


That last thought belongs in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=117381


I hate you.

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Regionality
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby Regionality » Thu May 13, 2010 12:37 am

Tautology wrote:
Regionality wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:ITT: Some random idiot tries to perpetuate the stereotype that UChicago is somehow more intense than any other law school. Several 1Ls shoot him down, random idiot persists. Now, a transfer student will also say "stfu, Chicago is just like any other law school anywhere, some classes are hellish, some aren't, people are fine, life goes on."

Seriously, law school is law school.


That last thought belongs in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=117381


I hate you.


hahahaha

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doyleoil
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby doyleoil » Thu May 13, 2010 12:38 am

dresden doll wrote:I would like to interrupt the serious business that is this thread to thank Regionality for the link. Well played.


seriously - i don't know how i managed to find time to laugh what with all the RIGOR - but somehow it happened

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dresden doll
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Thu May 13, 2010 12:41 am

doyleoil wrote:
dresden doll wrote:I would like to interrupt the serious business that is this thread to thank Regionality for the link. Well played.


seriously - i don't know how i managed to find time to laugh what with all the RIGOR - but somehow it happened


You laughed rigorously. That's how!

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Columbia v. Chicago

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu May 13, 2010 12:44 am

dresden doll wrote:
doyleoil wrote:
dresden doll wrote:I would like to interrupt the serious business that is this thread to thank Regionality for the link. Well played.


seriously - i don't know how i managed to find time to laugh what with all the RIGOR - but somehow it happened


You laughed rigorously. That's how!


Ok ok, enough you two--back in your corners for your exam studying. Gogo. You have 4 whole exams this quarter--like every law student at every other law school ever has their first semester. FEEL THE RIGOR!!




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