T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

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Regionality
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby Regionality » Sat May 08, 2010 2:35 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
Regionality wrote:But I think that for you and your fellow T14ers that finding a job won't be a problem at all in the end (9 months out).



Let's not forget too that just because you don't get your dream job now doesn't mean you won't land a dream job a year from now after you work your embarrassingly pathetic 50-75k/yr job now.


Two flaming flying fallacies in that statement:
1. That Biglaw is the "dream job" of T14ers. False. It is the only available means to pay off their debt, and a launching point into the upper echelon of the legal industry.


2. Once you strike out at OCI, there is no turning back. Judging, academia, DoJ, you name it, is virtually shut off forever once you can't wiggle your way into one of those big firms as a 2L. There is a rich and vibrant life outside the confines of the legal Illuminati, but don't kid yourself. Once you're out, you're out.


"Wow, I think there's a job in career services for you in the end."

Haha maybe you're right...I just don't buy the doom and gloom coming from T14 students...who use their own pessimism as evidence that anything less than T14 is a waste of time and money.

"1. That Biglaw is the "dream job" of T14ers. False. It is the only available means to pay off their debt, and a launching point into the upper echelon of the legal industry."

Well, you're certainly correct that it isn't everyone's dream job...but it is many's target job.

"2. Once you strike out at OCI, there is no turning back. Judging, academia, DoJ, you name it, is virtually shut off forever once you can't wiggle your way into one of those big firms as a 2L. There is a rich and vibrant life outside the confines of the legal Illuminati, but don't kid yourself. Once you're out, you're out."

This may be true for OCI, but I think that its also very shortsighted to say that once you don't land your ideal job at OCI or before you graduate that your legal career is going to be something that doesn't make you wealthy and happy.

GirlInTx
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby GirlInTx » Sat May 08, 2010 2:37 pm

Doritos wrote:
GirlInTx wrote:
mafrench wrote:Yes tls is pretty pathetic at times. There are a lot of people on here who have very warped views on law school. The people talking to you on this site represent a very small percentage of those who apply to law school every year and most of them have no law school experience and are applying to law school just like you. Take your LSAT and do your research and you will do just fine. If you can score a high score, i think you will be surprised at the responses you get from schools despite your gpa.


Thank god. I was actually about to start reconsidering if this website was an accurate representation of the typical law school student body.


mafrench wrote:Its not. 90% of the people on here are prospective students with nothing better to do than worry about law school and their lsat scores. The kids actually in law school are busy being law students and studying their asses off, not talking shit to people who are sincerely looking for advice. I think in theory this forum could be a great place to receive advice, but most people are to caught up in themselves and the doom and gloom theories of how bad the legal market is. Yes the legal market sucks but in 3 years when you graduate it will be better. Everyone is having trouble getting jobs right now so most people just need to be thankful they have an opportunity to get a JD while things are getting better.


Ok I usually try to stay out of internet quibbles but what's going on here? First, mafrench you say a lot of people on here have "warped views on law school". What are these warped views? For a view to be warped I would assume there is a standard and correct view. What view is that? TLS is not perfect but I have learned a ton about the admissions process, the legal market, law school, etc. from this forum. Countless people give invaluable insight into the law school world and legal world to us 0Ls free of charge. You say "90% of people on here at prospectives with nothing better to do than worry about law school and their lsat scores". You say this like it's a bad thing lol. I really enjoy this place because there are lots of other 0L's like me who take the time to do in depth research about admissions standards at schools, employment prospects, cost-benefit analysis of schools, market saturation, etc. I call this due diligence and I welcome it.

You also say most are caught up in doom and gloom theories and how bad the legal market is. I ask what is wrong with that? We are talking about putting up a substantial amount of money, give up 3 years of our lives, and enter into a very specific field. What is wrong with analyzing the market. Also before you dismiss these doom and gloom theories take a trip to the legal employment subforum. It's sobering and real. There are plenty of fantastic posters who are in law school, and even some who are working in the legal field right now, who are giving insight into the market. Have you been through an OGI? Are you a practicing attorney? You can disagree with people's take on the current state of the legal field, their recommendation of which school you should attend, or even think that h20man isn't hilarious (which he is) but please get off your high horse and don't insult the entire forum.

And girlintx...what's with that comment? If you don't want our help don't ask. No one is making you stay here. There is a lot of internet out there and you don't have to come here. Try --LinkRemoved-- or http://www.xoxohth.com/main.php?forum_id=2 if our replies are so repugnant.


You provided a quality response. That comment wasn't directed at you. There are some very helpful people here, IMO. I was simply stating that a significant majority of them just give smart ass responses instead of real advice, which I don't appreciate.
Last edited by GirlInTx on Sat May 08, 2010 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby vanwinkle » Sat May 08, 2010 2:38 pm

Regionality wrote:Typical. You say people at your T14 are "struggling" to find work, but you have yet to give any statistics (even at your very own school) about employment rates 9 months after graduation in the current year.

Such statistics aren't out yet.

Regionality wrote:It SHOULD be a "struggle" to find work, no matter the economy. People need to balance many things to find a job that fits for them. It is such typical T14-sense-of-entitlement-mentality that leads you to think that a struggle at a T14 to find a job is some sort of unfair burden.

This is just ridiculously stupid. You're paying $180K to go to one of the top law schools in the country and it "should be a struggle to find work" afterward? WTF? This is about as pessimistic as I'm being, except you're saying it's supposed to be that way.

I've been unemployed before, and I've struggled to find work before. I know what it means to be jobless despite qualifications. I have no sense of entitlement about anything. Also, I love how you demand empirical proof from me and then start making unsubstantiated assumptions yourself.

Regionality wrote:Please, besides your anecdotal evidence and observations, give statistics that mean something so we know how bad it really is for you and your peers.

As mentioned, statistics aren't out yet. However, you may want to read this: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html It's more anecdotal evidence, but from a student at a T10 law school who can't find work now at all. There are other posters on this board (including a mod) who are in the same boat, and it's not that they tanked their classes or anything.

To make it easier for you to understand, the WSJ includes pretty pictures. Note the graph where hiring of people who got 2L summer jobs in the first place has dropped to less than 70%. Note the graph next to it that shows that law firms are only offering about half the summer internships that they used to. Fewer summer interns + hiring fewer of them permanently = far fewer people being hired for BigLaw.

Regionality wrote:Then we could maybe extrapolate to lower ranked law schools.

The extrapolation to lower-ranked law schools is usually too hard for 0Ls to understand for some reason, but it goes like this: Fewer BigLaw positions means T14 grads aren't getting BigLaw jobs. So, they go and grab up all the non-BigLaw jobs they can find, if they can even find them. That means taking jobs that traditionally went to lower T1 and T2 grads. Now those grads can't find work anymore, not even the low-paying work they were counting on paying, because the T14 grads took them as better than no work at all. There's this immense ripple effect suppressing hiring at all levels.

Regionality wrote:But I think that for you and your fellow T14ers that finding a job won't be a problem at all in the end (9 months out). Let's not forget too that just because you don't get your dream job now doesn't mean you won't land a dream job a year from now after you work your embarrassingly pathetic 50-75k/yr job now.

Why do people always assume that my dream job is BigLaw? My dream job is going to start out paying 50K a year a best, but I may not get it now because it's become insanely competitive to get, because all the folks who use to take BigLaw are rushing to grab it instead since it's paying work.

Also, you seem to imply that you can "work your way up" to a BigLaw dream job from low-paying grunt work. For the most part, no, it doesn't work that way. There are 45,000 new law school graduates every year, and firms would rather take someone new who hasn't been through the process yet than someone they've already screened once and rejected. That's just the way it is. Once you're out, you're out, for the most part. There are a few people who can make that kind of lateral, but they're coming from the jobs that are low-paying but hypercompetitive (DOJ, other fed work, big-city DA's office) that not that many people can count on getting either.

Your general cluelessness about how law hiring works combined with your blatant stereotyping of all T14 grads indicates how completely off-base your assumptions and assertions are. In short, you're an idiot, and hopefully everyone can see that.

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DerrickRose
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby DerrickRose » Sat May 08, 2010 2:39 pm

Regionality wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
Regionality wrote:But I think that for you and your fellow T14ers that finding a job won't be a problem at all in the end (9 months out).

Wow, I think there's a job in career services for you in the end.

Haha maybe you're right...I just don't buy the doom and gloom coming from T14 students...who use their own pessimism as evidence that anything less than T14 is a waste of time and money.


Let's not forget too that just because you don't get your dream job now doesn't mean you won't land a dream job a year from now after you work your embarrassingly pathetic 50-75k/yr job now.


Two flaming flying fallacies in that statement:
1. That Biglaw is the "dream job" of T14ers. False. It is the only available means to pay off their debt, and a launching point into the upper echelon of the legal industry.

Well, you're certainly correct that it isn't everyone's dream job...but it is many's target job.

2. Once you strike out at OCI, there is no turning back. Judging, academia, DoJ, you name it, is virtually shut off forever once you can't wiggle your way into one of those big firms as a 2L. There is a rich and vibrant life outside the confines of the legal Illuminati, but don't kid yourself. Once you're out, you're out.


This may be true for OCI, but I think that its also very shortsighted to say that once you don't land your ideal job at OCI or before you graduate that your legal career is going to be something that doesn't make you wealthy and happy.


Your perspective on life is a good one and one that I share. But there are two problems.

1. It is not the same as the perspective of prestige-hungry 20somethings who are plunking down a quarter million dollars to go to law school. While I find their outlook skewed, that doesn't mean its wrong.

2. These people we are talking about aren't happy if they aren't wealthy, and aren't wealthy if they can't get Biglaw.

mafrench
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby mafrench » Sat May 08, 2010 2:41 pm

What everyone fails to consider , is the fact that all grad school graduates save nursing and med school grads are having a terrible time finding work. The economy sucks for everyone, not just lawyers. To say its idiotic to think things will get better is about as close minded as one could be. Last time i checked we hit rock bottom in march of 08 when the dow was around 8k and fortune 500 companies were getting bail outs. Like it or not the reality is the corporate sector feeds the business to the big firms that create those nifty 160k big law jobs. Unless your suggesting were going back to dow 8,000 and all the banks are going to fail again, im pretty sure things are going to get better. Will it take time? Yes but the economic indicators are improving greatly as are the hiring reports. The fantastic things about recessions is that they end. What goes up must come down and what goes down must come back up its economics, we just got the short end of the straw this cycle. As for the TTTT schools yea they dont have much business being around, but as long as people pay to go they will be and people are going in droves right now. :(

GirlInTx
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby GirlInTx » Sat May 08, 2010 2:43 pm

mafrench wrote:What everyone fails to consider , is the fact that all grad school graduates save nursing and med school grads are having a terrible time finding work. The economy sucks for everyone, not just lawyers.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby D. H2Oman » Sat May 08, 2010 2:46 pm

mafrench wrote:What everyone fails to consider , is the fact that all grad school graduates save nursing and med school grads are having a terrible time finding work. The economy sucks for everyone, not just lawyers. To say its idiotic to think things will get better is about as close minded as one could be. Last time i checked we hit rock bottom in march of 08 when the dow was around 8k and fortune 500 companies were getting bail outs. Like it or not the reality is the corporate sector feeds the business to the big firms that create those nifty 160k big law jobs. Unless your suggesting were going back to dow 8,000 and all the banks are going to fail again, im pretty sure things are going to get better. Will it take time? Yes but the economic indicators are improving greatly as are the hiring reports. The fantastic things about recessions is that they end. What goes up must come down and what goes down must come back up its economics, we just got the short end of the straw this cycle. As for the TTTT schools yea they dont have much business being around, but as long as people pay to go they will be and people are going in droves right now. :(



Yes, the economy will probably get better but

1) Hiring at big firms may not come back to the levels in was pre-Lehman brothers
2) Far more people go into law school expecting to make biglaw than will actually ever make biglaw. Many people are making serious mistakes.

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DerrickRose
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby DerrickRose » Sat May 08, 2010 2:50 pm

GirlInTx wrote:
mafrench wrote:What everyone fails to consider , is the fact that all grad school graduates save nursing and med school grads are having a terrible time finding work. The economy sucks for everyone, not just lawyers.


It doesn't cost 200k to look for a job in any other field.

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DerrickRose
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby DerrickRose » Sat May 08, 2010 2:51 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
mafrench wrote:What everyone fails to consider , is the fact that all grad school graduates save nursing and med school grads are having a terrible time finding work. The economy sucks for everyone, not just lawyers. To say its idiotic to think things will get better is about as close minded as one could be. Last time i checked we hit rock bottom in march of 08 when the dow was around 8k and fortune 500 companies were getting bail outs. Like it or not the reality is the corporate sector feeds the business to the big firms that create those nifty 160k big law jobs. Unless your suggesting were going back to dow 8,000 and all the banks are going to fail again, im pretty sure things are going to get better. Will it take time? Yes but the economic indicators are improving greatly as are the hiring reports. The fantastic things about recessions is that they end. What goes up must come down and what goes down must come back up its economics, we just got the short end of the straw this cycle. As for the TTTT schools yea they dont have much business being around, but as long as people pay to go they will be and people are going in droves right now. :(



Yes, the economy will probably get better but

1) Hiring at big firms may not come back to the levels in was pre-Lehman brothers
2) Far more people go into law school expecting to make biglaw than will actually ever make biglaw. Many people are making serious mistakes.


3) This was a huge problem pre-ITE, now it's just gotten to the point where its almost farcical.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby vanwinkle » Sat May 08, 2010 2:53 pm

mafrench wrote:What everyone fails to consider , is the fact that all grad school graduates save nursing and med school grads are having a terrible time finding work. The economy sucks for everyone, not just lawyers.

The job market for lawyers was not strong even before the recession, though. Before the recession there was a strong need for new doctors and nurses, but there wasn't nearly enough need for all the 45,000 new lawyers a year graduating from law schools. Plus, those schools have continued to graduate people at 45,000 per year through the recession despite the lack of hiring, and they're going to continue to do so. Even after the economy recovers, there is going to be a glut of lawyers out there trying to grab up any work they can find, and that's going to keep the legal hiring market depressed for some time, years at least.

Plus, unemployment sucks for everyone, but unemployment + 200K in debt you can't discharge even in bankruptcy sucks a lot worse for lawyers. Why go to law school just so you can become even more broke?

mafrench
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby mafrench » Sat May 08, 2010 2:57 pm

I doubt that it will every get like it was at its peak again, but it will get better. Yes people are making mistakes but once people get set on going to law school they seem to go. This is evidenced by the 25 to 35% increase in apps at most schools this year. The TTTT are thriving because everyone is going back to school right now and nothing will change that. Schools would not be building all these nifty new libraries and opening multi million dollar law schools if they didn't think it would help their bottom lines. No one ever said law school gave you a guaranteed job and it will be harder than it was in the past to get one, but should it really be easy? Reality is there are a handful of big and midsized firm jobs out there and the people who network and bust their asses will get them. Its really pretty simple.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby vanwinkle » Sat May 08, 2010 2:58 pm

mafrench wrote:Reality is there are a mere handful of big and midsized firm jobs out there and the people who get into top law schools and network and bust their asses will get them. Its really pretty simple.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby D. H2Oman » Sat May 08, 2010 2:58 pm

mafrench wrote:I doubt that it will every get like it was at its peak again, but it will get better. Yes people are making mistakes but once people get set on going to law school they seem to go. This is evidenced by the 25 to 35% increase in apps at most schools this year. The TTTT are thriving because everyone is going back to school right now and nothing will change that. Schools would not be building all these nifty new libraries and opening multi million dollar law schools if they didn't think it would help their bottom lines. No one ever said law school gave you a guaranteed job and it will be harder than it was in the past to get one, but should it really be easy? Reality is there are a handful of big and midsized firm jobs out there and the people who network and bust their asses will get them. Its really pretty simple.


Wait, what exactly is your point?

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DerrickRose
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby DerrickRose » Sat May 08, 2010 2:59 pm

mafrench wrote:I doubt that it will every get like it was at its peak again, but it will get better. Yes people are making mistakes but once people get set on going to law school they seem to go. This is evidenced by the 25 to 35% increase in apps at most schools this year. The TTTT are thriving because everyone is going back to school right now and nothing will change that. Schools would not be building all these nifty new libraries and opening multi million dollar law schools if they didn't think it would help their bottom lines. No one ever said law school gave you a guaranteed job and it will be harder than it was in the past to get one, but should it really be easy? Reality is there are a handful of big and midsized firm jobs out there and the people who network and bust their asses will get them. Its really pretty simple.


I'm doing everything I can.

Oh, and the reality is that ~30% of the people going to law school this year, next year, and into the forseeable future will never work a job that they needed their JD to get. Kthxbai.

mafrench
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby mafrench » Sat May 08, 2010 2:59 pm

Not to mention we all complain about how big of a problem it is...yet were all in law school knowing the prospects we face...

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eagles86
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby eagles86 » Sat May 08, 2010 2:59 pm

I have ZERO sympathy for those t14 who claim no job is available but wont take anything paying below 125K. What do they need to live comfortably down the road? 600K a year minimum? And yes, i do believe that many posters here from top schools do take pleasure in putting down the hopes of those at schools below them. Not getting a job at OCI does not mean the end of everything and everyone also forgets that biglaw attrition rates are very high. For instance, sometimes only 4-5 of 50 associates hired make partner and rarely have any relationship with clients. This hurts after they leave the firm after 6 years and have no skills on how to deal with clients

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vanwinkle
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby vanwinkle » Sat May 08, 2010 3:01 pm

eagles86 wrote:I have ZERO sympathy for those t14 who claim no job is available but wont take anything paying below 125K.

Nice strawman you've set up there. Congratulations on achieving moral superiority over a non-existent class of people.

GirlInTx
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby GirlInTx » Sat May 08, 2010 3:02 pm

vanwinkle wrote:The job market for lawyers was not strong even before the recession, though. Before the recession there was a strong need for new doctors and nurses, but there wasn't nearly enough need for all the 45,000 new lawyers a year graduating from law schools.


Which bears the question: Why do TTTT law schools even exist?

And what is even more puzzling, why do non-ABA and "online correspondence" law schools exist?

It certainly doesn't help the saturated legal market. Arghh..

mafrench
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby mafrench » Sat May 08, 2010 3:02 pm

They exist because there is demand

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D. H2Oman
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby D. H2Oman » Sat May 08, 2010 3:03 pm

GirlInTx wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:The job market for lawyers was not strong even before the recession, though. Before the recession there was a strong need for new doctors and nurses, but there wasn't nearly enough need for all the 45,000 new lawyers a year graduating from law schools.


Which bears the question: Why do TTTT law schools even exist?

And what is even more puzzling, why do non-ABA and "online correspondence" law schools exist?

It certainly doesn't help the saturated legal market. Arghh..


As long as people are willing to go to these schools, they'll keep building them.

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DerrickRose
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby DerrickRose » Sat May 08, 2010 3:03 pm

GirlInTx wrote:Which bears the question: Why do TTTT law schools even exist?


/thread

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eagles86
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby eagles86 » Sat May 08, 2010 3:07 pm

The practicing attorneys I talked to seem to think the school I'm going to (high Tier 2) is worth it. I'll trust them over these elitist morons any day of the week.

motiontodismiss
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby motiontodismiss » Sat May 08, 2010 3:12 pm

eagles86 wrote:I have ZERO sympathy for those t14 who claim no job is available but wont take anything paying below 125K. What do they need to live comfortably down the road? 600K a year minimum? And yes, i do believe that many posters here from top schools do take pleasure in putting down the hopes of those at schools below them. Not getting a job at OCI does not mean the end of everything and everyone also forgets that biglaw attrition rates are very high. For instance, sometimes only 4-5 of 50 associates hired make partner and rarely have any relationship with clients. This hurts after they leave the firm after 6 years and have no skills on how to deal with clients


If Obama gets his way with the Tax Code, yes.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby D. H2Oman » Sat May 08, 2010 3:16 pm

eagles86 wrote:The practicing attorneys I talked to seem to think the school I'm going to (high Tier 2) is worth it. I'll trust them over these elitist morons any day of the week.



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eagles86
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Re: T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride

Postby eagles86 » Sat May 08, 2010 3:16 pm

another conservative who wants the economy to fail




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