GULC @sticker vs. Cornell w/$$? Forum

[night06]

Am I crazy for even considering GULC at full price over Cornell with a $15k/year? I'm pretty sure I want to go into government, so I'm finding it very difficult to pass up GULC's DC location (not to mention the sweet LRAP). I'd love to take the scholarship at Cornell, but I'm worried that I'll be giving up too much in the way of networking opportunities by going off to Ithaca for 3 years... What do you guys think?

[Interminable_Waiting]

If you are 100% set on federal gov't or PI than G-Town.

If not then Cornell.

[night06]

If you are 100% set on federal gov't or PI than G-Town.

If not then Cornell.

I'd say I'm about 90% sure. I don't think it's possible to be 100% sure of anything at this point.

And speaking of uncertainty - what do you think of GULC's LRAP? Is it really there for the long term? It just seems too good to be true, and I'd hate it see it suddenly disappear a few years after we graduate.

[Interminable_Waiting]

If you are 100% set on federal gov't or PI than G-Town.

If not then Cornell.

I'd say I'm about 90% sure. I don't think it's possible to be 100% sure of anything at this point.

And speaking of uncertainty - what do you think of GULC's LRAP? Is it really there for the long term? It just seems too good to be true, and I'd hate it see it suddenly disappear a few years after we graduate.

I think that every time it has been revised previously it has been bettered. I spoke with the Financial Aid guy when I was down there visiting and he guaranteed me with 100% certainty that it would not get worse, unless IBR changes for the worse. Also, if it does change for the worse, it would not affect people already in it, just future enrollers.

Based on the way the federal gov't does their balance sheet stuff, IBR cannot change for the worse for 8 years or so, (people will dispute this, but they don't understand how these programs role out, become funded, and how the loans work) so I think everyone through the Class of 2018 at least is fine with this LRAP or a better one.

Not to mention just from looking at it thoughtfully... it has become a big selling point for Georgetown really quickly, and most other schools in the T30 or so have or are attempting to set up a good LRAP program. Georgetown is clinging to T14 status with all their might. I highly doubt they would cut it just for the reason that it would be terrible PR.

You get a lot of pessimistic shit on TLS. Just do your own research and look at historical trends + use common sense and try to figure out why these schools have programs like this. There is an hour-long video on Georgetown's website about IBR + LRAP which you can look at. It is linked from the GULC c/o 2013 thread.

All that having been said, if you go into private firms you will have to pay it all back (or languish with IBR for decades). In that case, I'm thinking Cornell would be better.

[night06]

If you are 100% set on federal gov't or PI than G-Town.

If not then Cornell.

I'd say I'm about 90% sure. I don't think it's possible to be 100% sure of anything at this point.

And speaking of uncertainty - what do you think of GULC's LRAP? Is it really there for the long term? It just seems too good to be true, and I'd hate it see it suddenly disappear a few years after we graduate.

I think that every time it has been revised previously it has been bettered. I spoke with the Financial Aid guy when I was down there visiting and he guaranteed me with 100% certainty that it would not get worse, unless IBR changes for the worse. Also, if it does change for the worse, it would not affect people already in it, just future enrollers.

Based on the way the federal gov't does their balance sheet stuff, IBR cannot change for the worse for 8 years or so, (people will dispute this, but they don't understand how these programs role out, become funded, and how the loans work) so I think everyone through the Class of 2018 at least is fine with this LRAP or a better one.

Not to mention just from looking at it thoughtfully... it has become a big selling point for Georgetown really quickly, and most other schools in the T30 or so have or are attempting to set up a good LRAP program. Georgetown is clinging to T14 status with all their might. I highly doubt they would cut it just for the reason that it would be terrible PR.

You get a lot of pessimistic shit on TLS. Just do your own research and look at historical trends + use common sense and try to figure out why these schools have programs like this. There is an hour-long video on Georgetown's website about IBR + LRAP which you can look at. It is linked from the GULC c/o 2013 thread.

All that having been said, if you go into private firms you will have to pay it all back (or languish with IBR for decades). In that case, I'm thinking Cornell would be better.

Thanks for the input. I've seen that video, and it's very encouraging.

[night06]

Anyone have any other thoughts on this?

[fwaam]

If you've done the research and you're fairly confident that Georgetown would better meet your needs, then go for it. $45,000 is a big deal, but getting the job you want is a bigger deal. I would encourage you to look at the fine print on their LRAP before you commit though. Some people on this site seem to assume that $150,000 debt + no biglaw = LRAP pays all your debt, which is blatantly untrue unless you go into a very low-paying job and stay there, which almost no one does.

If you're mostly concerned about Cornell because of networking opportunities, I'm not sure how big a deal that is. You could still spend summers in DC and save a lot of money. OTOH, if at Georgetown you think you'd be involved in externships or something during the year, and if you think their alumni network/connections are better for what you want, then GULC would give you a definite boost.

[splinter23x]

I would encourage you to look at the fine print on their LRAP before you commit though. Some people on this site seem to assume that $150,000 debt + no biglaw = LRAP pays all your debt, which is blatantly untrue unless you go into a very low-paying job and stay there, which almost no one does.

+1. I didn't think LRAP applied to most federal government jobs, they pay too much. It's more for DA work since DA's get paid less than bartenders.

As for the choice between schools, that's a nice scholarship from Cornell. Georgetown is a great school even at full tuition, and 3 years in DC beats 3 years in Ithaca NY. I think Georgetown is a good enough school for me to say just go where you want to go rather than think too much about the price.

[Interminable_Waiting]

I would encourage you to look at the fine print on their LRAP before you commit though. Some people on this site seem to assume that $150,000 debt + no biglaw = LRAP pays all your debt, which is blatantly untrue unless you go into a very low-paying job and stay there, which almost no one does.

+1. I didn't think LRAP applied to most federal government jobs, they pay too much. It's more for DA work since DA's get paid less than bartenders.

Georgetown's LRAP works as follows, in summary:

If you work for a non-profit, or for federal, state, local, or tribal gov't, in a position that requires or strongly encourage a JD, they will have you sign up for IBR. Once you do, they will pay the entire leftover portion of your loans, as long as you make 75,000 or less. They will pay a decreasing proportion of this up to a 150,000 salary.

So if you work for the Feds you will probably pay nothing on your loans for the first few years, then, once you become a 12 or up, you will pay a small amount. If you move up to a 14 or 15 you will pay a significant amount. So, for years 8-10 it is likely, if you are advancing in your career, you will pay a significat amount of your loans. However, this certainly will not be an amount which makes it hard to pay the bills.

If you have private loans from UG they will not pay those. If you have public loans, then they will pay them, up to a point.

[night06]

I would encourage you to look at the fine print on their LRAP before you commit though. Some people on this site seem to assume that $150,000 debt + no biglaw = LRAP pays all your debt, which is blatantly untrue unless you go into a very low-paying job and stay there, which almost no one does.

+1. I didn't think LRAP applied to most federal government jobs, they pay too much. It's more for DA work since DA's get paid less than bartenders.

Georgetown's LRAP works as follows, in summary:

If you work for a non-profit, or for federal, state, local, or tribal gov't, in a position that requires or strongly encourage a JD, they will have you sign up for IBR. Once you do, they will pay the entire leftover portion of your loans, as long as you make 75,000 or less. They will pay a decreasing proportion of this up to a 150,000 salary.

So if you work for the Feds you will probably pay nothing on your loans for the first few years, then, once you become a 12 or up, you will pay a small amount. If you move up to a 14 or 15 you will pay a significant amount. So, for years 8-10 it is likely, if you are advancing in your career, you will pay a significat amount of your loans. However, this certainly will not be an amount which makes it hard to pay the bills.

If you have private loans from UG they will not pay those. If you have public loans, then they will pay them, up to a point.

Yep. I think people underestimate just how amazing GULC's LRAP is - it's far and away above the programs at most other schools. If it weren't for this, there's no way I'd be considering sticker.

[lawapps0502]

They are both top schools. I think because Cornell has a smaller class, you will be able to get a bit more attention and perhaps have an easier time finding a job. Plus living in Ithaca is cheaper, combined with the money they are giving you, Cornell may be the better choice.

[fwaam]

I would encourage you to look at the fine print on their LRAP before you commit though. Some people on this site seem to assume that $150,000 debt + no biglaw = LRAP pays all your debt, which is blatantly untrue unless you go into a very low-paying job and stay there, which almost no one does.

+1. I didn't think LRAP applied to most federal government jobs, they pay too much. It's more for DA work since DA's get paid less than bartenders.

Georgetown's LRAP works as follows, in summary:

If you work for a non-profit, or for federal, state, local, or tribal gov't, in a position that requires or strongly encourage a JD, they will have you sign up for IBR. Once you do, they will pay the entire leftover portion of your loans, as long as you make 75,000 or less. They will pay a decreasing proportion of this up to a 150,000 salary.

So if you work for the Feds you will probably pay nothing on your loans for the first few years, then, once you become a 12 or up, you will pay a small amount. If you move up to a 14 or 15 you will pay a significant amount. So, for years 8-10 it is likely, if you are advancing in your career, you will pay a significat amount of your loans. However, this certainly will not be an amount which makes it hard to pay the bills.

If you have private loans from UG they will not pay those. If you have public loans, then they will pay them, up to a point.

Wait a minute. If they make you sign up for IBR, that's not exactly amazing. They require you to put your loans on a 25-year repayment term, which means you're paying a relatively low amount each month (which in turn means that LRAP/IBR helps you out less because your bills are lower) but you have to do it for decades, thus paying in the end more than twice what you took out in debt due to interest. For instance, $150,000 in debt over a 25-year term with 6.8% interest (which is low btw) means monthly payments of just over $1000, but you pay a total of $312,000.

Again: anyone who's looking at using any LRAP/IBR for any reason, please look at the fine print and run the numbers yourself before you commit to a school that costs more than you can afford. Don't just assume that because LRAP and IBR exist that you won't have to pay back your own debt.

[night06]

I would encourage you to look at the fine print on their LRAP before you commit though. Some people on this site seem to assume that $150,000 debt + no biglaw = LRAP pays all your debt, which is blatantly untrue unless you go into a very low-paying job and stay there, which almost no one does.

+1. I didn't think LRAP applied to most federal government jobs, they pay too much. It's more for DA work since DA's get paid less than bartenders.

Georgetown's LRAP works as follows, in summary:

If you work for a non-profit, or for federal, state, local, or tribal gov't, in a position that requires or strongly encourage a JD, they will have you sign up for IBR. Once you do, they will pay the entire leftover portion of your loans, as long as you make 75,000 or less. They will pay a decreasing proportion of this up to a 150,000 salary.

So if you work for the Feds you will probably pay nothing on your loans for the first few years, then, once you become a 12 or up, you will pay a small amount. If you move up to a 14 or 15 you will pay a significant amount. So, for years 8-10 it is likely, if you are advancing in your career, you will pay a significat amount of your loans. However, this certainly will not be an amount which makes it hard to pay the bills.

If you have private loans from UG they will not pay those. If you have public loans, then they will pay them, up to a point.

Wait a minute. If they make you sign up for IBR, that's not exactly amazing. They require you to put your loans on a 25-year repayment term, which means you're paying a relatively low amount each month (which in turn means that LRAP/IBR helps you out less because your bills are lower) but you have to do it for decades, thus paying in the end more than twice what you took out in debt due to interest. For instance, $150,000 in debt over a 25-year term with 6.8% interest (which is low btw) means monthly payments of just over $1000, but you pay a total of $312,000.

Again: anyone who's looking at using any LRAP/IBR for any reason, please look at the fine print and run the numbers yourself before you commit to a school that costs more than you can afford. Don't just assume that because LRAP and IBR exist that you won't have to pay back your own debt.

What? It's 10 years in public interest, and then the loans are forgiven.

[JG Hall]

.

[fwaam]

What? It's 10 years in public interest, and then the loans are forgiven.

Almost no one stays in qualifying public interest jobs for 10 years.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying depending on IBR is a bad thing no matter what. There are people for whom it's wonderful. I'm just saying everyone who's thinking about depending on it needs to read the fine print. If you're 100% sure you're going to spend the next 10 years at least working for a nonprofit, then knock yourself out--go to the best law school you can get into and let LRAP or IBR pay/help with your debt. But a lot of people change their minds in law school, and a lot more people change their minds once they get out in the workforce. What if you do a couple years in PI, then go into government or small firm work? What if you're tired of living on a PI salary, sick of being 30 years old and still having roommates, and want to buy a house and start saving for retirement? Then nobody's forgiving your loans--you might still get some help, but you have to take care of it yourself.

My comments are primarily directed at the people who aren't sure: the "well, I might do firm work, or I might do government, or I might do PI" sorts of people. Or the "working in civil rights sounds great, but I want to start and family and be able to afford to travel" sorts of people. Don't just assume IBR will take care of you if you don't start out at $160,000/year. Actually do the research and do the math.

[night06]

Any current Cornell or GULC students willing to chime in?

[KMaine]

I go to Cornell, but not sure how much help I will be. I know that Cornell's LRAP is considered one of the better plans. I would not worry whatsoever about networking/etc. I think there are advantages and disadvantages to each in terms of getting a job (small class v. DC location) but I think those are at the fringes. I am also not sure I would make the decision based on the money although 45K +/- is a big deal I suppose (that much money helped sway me to Cornell over Duke but it was not the only factor). Really the only thing that I would say is, yeah, read the LRAP descriptions very carefully. If they are about equal, only go to Georgetown if you really would rather be in DC for three years and that is worth almost $50,000 to you. Good luck.

[yabbadabbado]

Something you may want to think about is what school will be a better choice for you if the Govt. thing doesn't work out. Entry level attorney jobs with the Govt. do not grow on trees. Most of the agencies that do hire entry level only do it through the honors program and only hire a handful of new grads each year. The competition for those spots is very intense and they get a ton of apps from schools all over the country.

Frankly, the odds are not in your favor and choosing Gtown over Cornell is not going to increase your chances in any meaningful way. Sure, you can intern/extern during the school year at Gtown, but that ultimately doesn't mean much because so can every other GULC student not to mention the students at the other DC area schools. Getting an internship/externship at an agency is not hard at all, but the hiring process for a post-grad job is an entirely different ballgame.

[mnewboldc]

I go to Cornell as well, and I think it's useful to put "networking" in perspective.

During your first year you will not be networking. You will be studying. Your success during the first year of law school will be measured by eight tests and a handful of papers. That's it. You are not going to be shaking hands with anyone and espousing an interest in any legal field because you don't know what you're talking about yet. The time to start networking really starts with your summer job between 1L and 2L, and you can do that wherever.

If you win the lottery and get good grades, networking won't matter as much during your second and third years because you stand a good chance of getting the job you want on your transcript alone.

If you don't get good grades, then it's time to think about doing a semester-long externship somewhere (maybe in D.C.). At that point you'll have a clearer idea of what areas of the law interest you and will be able to do more targeted networking. And you still also have the summer between 2L and 3L to network.

So if you're balancing networking against $45,000, you're not really talking about giving up three years of networking. You're talking about giving up three semesters of networking. $45,000, with interest compounded semiannually, is no joke. Given that more and more law graduates (of even T14 schools) are looking at starting salaries around $55,000 or less, this could mean a lot in the long run. And who knows how long Obama's education assistance programs are going to be around for.

[woeisme]

Am I crazy for even considering GULC at full price over Cornell with a $15k/year? I'm pretty sure I want to go into government, so I'm finding it very difficult to pass up GULC's DC location (not to mention the sweet LRAP). I'd love to take the scholarship at Cornell, but I'm worried that I'll be giving up too much in the way of networking opportunities by going off to Ithaca for 3 years... What do you guys think?

I don't know about crazy, but yeah, I'd pick Cornell over GULC. Actually, I'd pick Cornell at sticker over the 15/year at GULC. I think Cornell is national enough of a school that it has enough connections to put you into government work. Unless you wanted to go to GULC part-time and do government work WHILE in law school. I guess there is some advantage to doing that, but other than that, I'd think Cornell is the better choice. On a personal level, though, what type of academic environments do you like? Do you like huge schools or smaller communities?