T2 vs T4 need help choosing

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romothesavior
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby romothesavior » Fri May 07, 2010 11:23 pm

--ImageRemoved--

Mark Few, head coach of the Gonzaga Bulldogs, says:

"RETAKE THE LSAT!"

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MentalGopher
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby MentalGopher » Fri May 07, 2010 11:25 pm

romothesavior wrote:--ImageRemoved--

Mark Few, head coach of the Gonzaga Bulldogs, says:

"RETAKE THE LSAT!"


+1000000000

Spokane is a zit on the ass of humanity. (Hyperbolic, I know, but it's pretty damn close.) And the other school's a for-profit. Trust me on this, you want to retake.

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DerrickRose
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby DerrickRose » Fri May 07, 2010 11:41 pm

OP, this is you in three years realizing you should have gone to a law school that is marketable on the West Coast:

Image

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A'nold
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby A'nold » Sat May 08, 2010 12:25 am

If Spokane is "a nice little area" then I have NO idea what would be a "bad" area. Have you ever been to the grungiest areas of Stockton, CA? They are twin cities, except for more homeless drug addict and meth dealers.

Case2L
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby Case2L » Sat May 08, 2010 12:01 pm

The OP clearly stated (s)he wants to start this fall and not retake. Gonzaga is the better of the two schools by a long shot. I have been a practicing atty in the pacific northwest and have met a lot of Gonzaga grads. They were all bright, accomplished attorneys. I realize that is somewhat ancedotal, but Gonzaga is definitely not a toilet law school. Charlotte is an unaccredited school in a state that already has too many law schools and should definitely be avoided. Just out of curiosity, have you been accepted to any cheaper third tier schools?

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Grizz
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby Grizz » Sat May 08, 2010 12:13 pm

Case2L wrote:The OP clearly stated (s)he wants to start this fall and not retake.


So what? OP is being unreasonable. She can go to a TTTT diploma mill or pay out the nose for a school that's not really worth it. She wanted our advice? Well that's the advice. Go to neither, retake LSAT.

Case2L
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby Case2L » Sat May 08, 2010 12:21 pm

rad law wrote:
Case2L wrote:The OP clearly stated (s)he wants to start this fall and not retake.


So what? OP is being unreasonable. She can go to a TTTT diploma mill or pay out the nose for a school that's not really worth it. She wanted our advice? Well that's the advice. Go to neither, retake LSAT.

Tough love! You're probably right, I just wanted to offer advice from a different perspective. Even if neither school is a great idea, I still believe gonzaga @ sticker trumps charlotte w/ $.

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creamedcats
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby creamedcats » Sat May 08, 2010 12:49 pm

Not saying Gonzaga is a bad school. Most, if not all, T2 schools offer a good education. But...sticker price?

If there is truly no other possible avenue for career advancement, fine, Gonzaga. T4 is almost always a no.

Also: Median private sector starting salary: $58,250 (Class of 2007, 43% reporting) NALP lists four (!) firms for OCI. Normally that's not a big concern of mine, but paying sticker...you'd better do some research to find out about job opportunities.
Last edited by creamedcats on Sat May 08, 2010 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Matthies
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby Matthies » Sat May 08, 2010 12:54 pm

rad law wrote:
Case2L wrote:The OP clearly stated (s)he wants to start this fall and not retake.


So what? OP is being unreasonable. She can go to a TTTT diploma mill or pay out the nose for a school that's not really worth it. She wanted our advice? Well that's the advice. Go to neither, retake LSAT.


Wait wut? Wouldn't a "dimploa mill" be someplace where everyone who enters graduates, like um Yale, and not schools that kick out a large chunk of thier 1Ls like Cooley?

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gwuorbust
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby gwuorbust » Sat May 08, 2010 1:12 pm

creamedcats wrote:Not saying Gonzaga is a bad school. Most, if not all, T2 schools offer a good education. But...sticker price?

If there is truly no other possible avenue for career advancement, fine, Gonzaga. T4 is almost always a no.

Also: Median private sector starting salary: $58,250 (Class of 2007, 43% reporting) NALP lists four (!) firms for OCI. Normally that's not a big concern of mine, but paying sticker...you'd better do some research to find out about job opportunities.


Image

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Grizz
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby Grizz » Sat May 08, 2010 1:14 pm

creamedcats wrote:Also: Median private sector starting salary: $58,250 (Class of 2007, 43% reporting) NALP lists four (!) firms for OCI. Normally that's not a big concern of mine, but paying sticker...you'd better do some research to find out about job opportunities.


Image

icydash
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby icydash » Sat May 08, 2010 1:20 pm

Nobody likes the LSAT, or studying for it, but let me give you an equivalent of what you're asking us:

I have two options for ending my life:
(1) I can give myself cancer (going to Gonzaga: there's a chance you might succeed / overcome your cancer, but it's going to be a slow, long, painful process for you to do so, with very little % chance of it actually happening)
(2) I can shoot myself in the chest and let myself bleed out (going to the unaccredited TTTT: a faster, yet still painful death)

And the rest of us asking you to retake the LSAT and reconsider are basically the equivalent of saying "no, don't end your life! we love you, life is beautiful...take some time and reconsider"....and you're just being stubborn.

I know this is a terrible, terrible analogy, but maybe it will (or will not?) put this in perspective a little bit.

Honestly this is what it comes down to: There is literally no reason why you can't take another year, work, and up your LSAT score....then get into better choice schools. Coming from either of these, you'll have no money, no job, massive debt, and no life. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is the reality ITE -- even for public interest jobs.

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legalease9
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby legalease9 » Sat May 08, 2010 2:00 pm

Go to Gonzaga. Don't go to Provisionally accredited school.

By the way, just to be technical, Gonzaga is newly demoted to T3. And Charlotte has no tier at all!

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legalease9
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby legalease9 » Sat May 08, 2010 2:04 pm

Matthies wrote:
rad law wrote:
Case2L wrote:The OP clearly stated (s)he wants to start this fall and not retake.


So what? OP is being unreasonable. She can go to a TTTT diploma mill or pay out the nose for a school that's not really worth it. She wanted our advice? Well that's the advice. Go to neither, retake LSAT.


Wait wut? Wouldn't a "dimploa mill" be someplace where everyone who enters graduates, like um Yale, and not schools that kick out a large chunk of thier 1Ls like Cooley?

:lol: Good point!

bella
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby bella » Sat May 08, 2010 2:44 pm

smartin wrote:OP, what's your aversion to retaking the LSAT?



I don't know where you all are in your lives but I'm actually working on a second career. I've been a teacher for 9 year. I've always loved law and now with the economy being what it is and school lay offs being what they are, its an opportunity for me to go to law school. Most people in my position just take a random online course. If I were to wait one more year to go to law school it would end up being a moot point...how big is the market for 40 year old new lawyers. And retaking isn't gonna change the fact that I have a 3.0 gpa from a cal state. I'm satisfied with a 160. T3 and T4 is the best I'm gonna do and I'm fine with that. My sister was the better student went to Berkeley and to BU, more power to her, Its not gonna happen for me in that way. So if your advise is that I should give up studying something I love because I can't get into a top school then thanks but no thanks.

Danteshek
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby Danteshek » Sat May 08, 2010 2:49 pm

In this thread: children giving advice to adult.

Just go to Gonzaga.

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Matthies
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby Matthies » Sat May 08, 2010 2:55 pm

Danteshek wrote:In this thread: [strike]children giving advice to adult[/strike] OLs who have never had a legal job, applied for a legal job, known anyone with a legal job, the closest they have come to a real lawyer or judge is watching Law and order reruns become legal employment experts and predict the future for people they have never met at schools they have never researched.

Just go to Gonzaga.


fixed and agree.

bella
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby bella » Sat May 08, 2010 3:03 pm

Matthies wrote:
Danteshek wrote:In this thread: [strike]children giving advice to adult[/strike] OLs who have never had a legal job, applied for a legal job, known anyone with a legal job, the closest they have come to a real lawyer or judge is watching Law and order reruns become legal employment experts and predict the future for people they have never met at schools they have never researched.

Just go to Gonzaga.


fixed and agree.



Thank you

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legalease9
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby legalease9 » Sat May 08, 2010 3:08 pm

bella wrote:
smartin wrote:OP, what's your aversion to retaking the LSAT?



I don't know where you all are in your lives but I'm actually working on a second career. I've been a teacher for 9 year. I've always loved law and now with the economy being what it is and school lay offs being what they are, its an opportunity for me to go to law school. Most people in my position just take a random online course. If I were to wait one more year to go to law school it would end up being a moot point...how big is the market for 40 year old new lawyers. And retaking isn't gonna change the fact that I have a 3.0 gpa from a cal state. I'm satisfied with a 160. T3 and T4 is the best I'm gonna do and I'm fine with that. My sister was the better student went to Berkeley and to BU, more power to her, Its not gonna happen for me in that way. So if your advise is that I should give up studying something I love because I can't get into a top school then thanks but no thanks.



I definitely think that if you love the law and really want to practice than you should definitely follow your dreams and let the chips fall where they may. So long as you have a realistic view of debt/prospective employment, and are willing to accept that, then go for it! If its what you want to do you can't go wrong.

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gwuorbust
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby gwuorbust » Sat May 08, 2010 3:15 pm

legalease9 wrote:
I definitely think that if you love the law and really want to practice than you should definitely follow your dreams and let the chips fall where they may. So long as you have a realistic view of debt/prospective employment, and are willing to accept that, then go for it! If its what you want to do you can't go wrong.


ever heard of subprime ? I'm pretty sure the sales pitch sounded something like that.

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Matthies
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby Matthies » Sat May 08, 2010 3:15 pm

legalease9 wrote:
bella wrote:
smartin wrote:OP, what's your aversion to retaking the LSAT?



I don't know where you all are in your lives but I'm actually working on a second career. I've been a teacher for 9 year. I've always loved law and now with the economy being what it is and school lay offs being what they are, its an opportunity for me to go to law school. Most people in my position just take a random online course. If I were to wait one more year to go to law school it would end up being a moot point...how big is the market for 40 year old new lawyers. And retaking isn't gonna change the fact that I have a 3.0 gpa from a cal state. I'm satisfied with a 160. T3 and T4 is the best I'm gonna do and I'm fine with that. My sister was the better student went to Berkeley and to BU, more power to her, Its not gonna happen for me in that way. So if your advise is that I should give up studying something I love because I can't get into a top school then thanks but no thanks.



I definitely think that if you love the law and really want to practice than you should definitely follow your dreams and let the chips fall where they may. So long as you have a realistic view of debt/prospective employment, and are willing to accept that, then go for it! If its what you want to do you can't go wrong.


Agree with this is well. Given that the Op is older and has a decent amount of work experience hopefully means that they know how to find jobs/create opportunities on their own. Going to a lower ranked school, in a smaller town means this is going to be critical to finding a job.

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DerrickRose
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby DerrickRose » Sat May 08, 2010 3:17 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
legalease9 wrote:
I definitely think that if you love the law and really want to practice than you should definitely follow your dreams and let the chips fall where they may. So long as you have a realistic view of debt/prospective employment, and are willing to accept that, then go for it! If its what you want to do you can't go wrong.


ever heard of subprime ? I'm pretty sure the sales pitch sounded something like that.


exactly. We really aren't going to fix the savings rate problem in this country are we?

icydash
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby icydash » Sat May 08, 2010 3:17 pm

bella wrote:I don't know where you all are in your lives but I'm actually working on a second career. I've been a teacher for 9 year. I've always loved law and now with the economy being what it is and school lay offs being what they are, its an opportunity for me to go to law school. Most people in my position just take a random online course. If I were to wait one more year to go to law school it would end up being a moot point...how big is the market for 40 year old new lawyers. And retaking isn't gonna change the fact that I have a 3.0 gpa from a cal state. I'm satisfied with a 160. T3 and T4 is the best I'm gonna do and I'm fine with that. My sister was the better student went to Berkeley and to BU, more power to her, Its not gonna happen for me in that way. So if your advise is that I should give up studying something I love because I can't get into a top school then thanks but no thanks.

I think you may be a little misinformed. Re-taking could change the fact that you have a 3.0 from cal state. With a 170+, you'd be a major splitter, and could get into some really great tier 1 schools. I don't know why you think this won't happen -- a lot of people are splitters (low 3 GPAs and high LSATs), and they get into great schools. I think you're selling yourself short.

As a side note: people change careers; it happens. A lot of people are between 28-40 when they enter law school -- you are by no means the first to traverse this path. If you do well in law school, and have the competence, then your age may be overlooked by a lot of future employers (IE if you go to a tier 1 and are on law review, and you're willing to do the work, who cares that you're 40?)

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A'nold
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby A'nold » Sat May 08, 2010 3:21 pm

Yikes. While I usually agree with matthies and dante, gotta say that the others' advice was not far off, at least not concerning these two schools and the debt. I am a non trad with a family and very familiar with this part of the country NW. I know a lady (40+) that went to Gonzaga Law and is working at a school as an office aid. I know this is anecdotal but it seems that older applicants have an especially hard time at lower ranked schools, especially where they are taking out massive amounts of debt.

OP- did you apply to the University of Idaho? Gonzaga and Idaho have very similar employment statistics. I know for a fact that with a 160 (basically regardless of your GPA), you can at least get an out-of-state waiver and pay 11k a year at Idaho compared to 30k+ a year at Gonzaga. You are looking at taking out about 150k at Gonzaga or about 90k at Idaho for the exact same job prospects. Actually, scratch that, Idaho likely has better job prospects because a lot of the class (when I say a lot, I mean based on percentage of those that actually get jobs) places into Boise.

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Matthies
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Re: T2 vs T4 need help choosing

Postby Matthies » Sat May 08, 2010 3:22 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
legalease9 wrote:
I definitely think that if you love the law and really want to practice than you should definitely follow your dreams and let the chips fall where they may. So long as you have a realistic view of debt/prospective employment, and are willing to accept that, then go for it! If its what you want to do you can't go wrong.


ever heard of subprime ? I'm pretty sure the sales pitch sounded something like that.


hmm would that be more like take out as much debt as you can to go to the highest ranked school as you can because your guaranteed to get a big law job making 160k to start and pay it all off in three years living the life of models and bottles?
I.e. buy as much house as you can, put off the interest for five years because real estate always goes up in value as will your income, you can't lose!




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