Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
pany1985
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:08 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby pany1985 » Wed May 05, 2010 3:40 am

I'm more interested in basketball, so I've been busy marvelling at Orlando's ridiculous blowout of Atlanta

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18426
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby bk1 » Wed May 05, 2010 3:43 am

84Sunbird2000 wrote:
existenz wrote:No, it's a defense of the profession against poorly educated graduates of diploma mills. It's also a warning to students not to waste $200k going to these toilet schools.



I don't get this at all. The disparity in the quality and educational pedigree of the professors at most schools is fairly small, and many T14 schools share some professors with lower-tier schools. Plus, if they pass the bar (and almost all non-CA schools have 66% plus bar passage rate year over year), I don't see what makes TTT and TTTT grads inherently inferior. Now, they may not always be amazing intellects, but that doesn't mean they can't be effective lawyers.

The job prospects and debt arguments are not only fair, but unequivocally true. And, yes, all things being equal, a law firm is probably going to trust hiring someone from a T1 over a T4, but that doesn't mean the T4 candidate demeans the profession simply by possessing a JD.


How is this related to hockey?

Lonagan wrote:Wings in 7, if for no other reason than they are playing the Sharks.


I would bet on this because the Sharks have proven to me year after year that they really don't want the Stanley Cup. Maybe we should start focusing more on the Presidents' Trophy... :x

GIJOE3066
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:32 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby GIJOE3066 » Wed May 05, 2010 3:45 am

aznflyingPanda, DerrickRose,

Thank you for the serious replies, I do not do this enough to understand the full meaning of flame, so its not that. IF the ROI is the sticking point, I can understand that to a degree. I have the new GI Bill though so it will pay basically the entire cost.

User avatar
D. H2Oman
Posts: 7469
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:47 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby D. H2Oman » Wed May 05, 2010 3:45 am

Oh oh oh ran here........am I too late to add a smart ass comment, I hope not!

GIJOE3066 wrote: and am considering attending Touro............ I hope that this is not indicative of the people that I will be dealing with in what I chose to make as my third career.


LOL @ at a Touro grad having a career in law.

Leeroy Jenkins
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:19 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Wed May 05, 2010 3:47 am

84Sunbird2000 wrote:I don't get this at all. The disparity in the quality and educational pedigree of the professors at most schools is fairly small, and many T14 schools share some professors with lower-tier schools.

If the education pedigree were equal, why are there not more TTT grads teaching at those law schools than schools that actually produce law professors?

Plus, if they pass the bar (and almost all non-CA schools have 66% plus bar passage rate year over year), I don't see what makes TTT and TTTT grads inherently inferior.

Since most T1's have bar passage rates of 85%+, I'd say that's grounds for 'inherently' inferior.

Now, they may not always be amazing intellects, but that doesn't mean they can't be effective lawyers. The job prospects and debt arguments are not only fair, but unequivocally true. And, yes, all things being equal, a law firm is probably going to trust hiring someone from a T1 over a T4[strike], but that doesn't mean the T4 candidate demeans the profession simply by possessing a JD[/strike].

Good, agreement on things is nice

User avatar
flyingpanda
Posts: 824
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:32 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby flyingpanda » Wed May 05, 2010 3:49 am

D. H2Oman wrote:Oh oh oh ran here........am I too late to add a smart ass comment, I hope not!

GIJOE3066 wrote: and am considering attending Touro............ I hope that this is not indicative of the people that I will be dealing with in what I chose to make as my third career.


LOL @ at a Touro grad having a career in law.


Well spoken

Leeroy Jenkins
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:19 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Wed May 05, 2010 3:50 am

D. H2Oman wrote:LOL @ at a Touro grad having a career in law.

Hey, someone's gotta rep DF against civil actions claiming damages for rape

User avatar
D. H2Oman
Posts: 7469
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:47 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby D. H2Oman » Wed May 05, 2010 3:52 am

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:LOL @ at a Touro grad having a career in law.

Hey, someone's gotta rep DF against civil actions claiming damages for rape



Image

GIJOE3066
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:32 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby GIJOE3066 » Wed May 05, 2010 3:52 am

84Sunbird2000,

Thank you for your time and reply.

Tofu
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:18 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Tofu » Wed May 05, 2010 4:03 am

pany1985 wrote:I'm more interested in basketball, so I've been busy marvelling at Orlando's ridiculous blowout of Atlanta


how do you think lakers v. orlando would turn out?

User avatar
Kilpatrick
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:06 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Kilpatrick » Wed May 05, 2010 4:13 am

I dismissed this as a flame at first, but now I don't know. Are you serious?

Just in case - don't go to this school. Even if it's free. You'll be throwing away three years of your life getting a completely worthless degree that might actually harm your career prospects in the future because nonlegal employers will think you are overqualified.

People aren't trashing these schools out of elitism. We're trying to warn people that come to this site looking for advice. It is a horrible decision to go to these places! The legal market is terrible right now. It's terrible for people at T-14s let alone whatever the hell Touro is. There are recent TTT grads who are literally applying for jobs at Chipotle right now. Don't go!

User avatar
Kilpatrick
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:06 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Kilpatrick » Wed May 05, 2010 4:15 am

.
Last edited by Kilpatrick on Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
quickquestionthanks
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:30 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Wed May 05, 2010 4:27 am

Kilpatrick wrote:I dismissed this as a flame at first, but now I don't know. Are you serious?

Just in case - don't go to this school. Even if it's free. You'll be throwing away three years of your life getting a completely worthless degree that might actually harm your career prospects in the future because nonlegal employers will think you are overqualified.

People aren't trashing these schools out of elitism. We're trying to warn people that come to this site looking for advice. It is a horrible decision to go to these places! The legal market is terrible right now. It's terrible for people at T-14s let alone whatever the hell Touro is. There are recent TTT grads who are literally applying for jobs at Chipotle right now. Don't go!



What a valiant cry...

Kilpatrick, every time I see one of your posts I think you've rolled back the odometer on your post count or something.

User avatar
84Sunbird2000
Posts: 756
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:39 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Wed May 05, 2010 4:41 am

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:
84Sunbird2000 wrote:I don't get this at all. The disparity in the quality and educational pedigree of the professors at most schools is fairly small, and many T14 schools share some professors with lower-tier schools.

If the education pedigree were equal, why are there not more TTT grads teaching at those law schools than schools that actually produce law professors?

Plus, if they pass the bar (and almost all non-CA schools have 66% plus bar passage rate year over year), I don't see what makes TTT and TTTT grads inherently inferior.

Since most T1's have bar passage rates of 85%+, I'd say that's grounds for 'inherently' inferior.

Now, they may not always be amazing intellects, but that doesn't mean they can't be effective lawyers. The job prospects and debt arguments are not only fair, but unequivocally true. And, yes, all things being equal, a law firm is probably going to trust hiring someone from a T1 over a T4[strike], but that doesn't mean the T4 candidate demeans the profession simply by possessing a JD[/strike].

Good, agreement on things is nice


First, quality of education =/= job prospects in academia. I don't understand how you are defining it, but I mean the quality of the instruction is still comparable at a T4 to a T14. The pace might be slower and quality of discussion a bit lower, but the curriculum, content, and textbooks are all going to be identical. Plus, outside of Yale and Harvard, academic job placement is pretty much a crapshoot, so unless you are willing to admit that USC grads and Tulsa grads are also all ill-educated at essentially the same level, your argument fails within its own false pretext.

Second, you failed massively at Reading Comprehension. I wrote: IF THEY PASS THE BAR, why would TTT and TTTT grads be considered inferior? I.E. why would guilt by association in bar passage rates reflect negatively upon those who DO PASS THE BAR? Plus, there are several T3 and T4 schools that have 80 and 90+ bar passage rates or beat out T2 and T1 schools in their state (Duquesne is in the 90s off the top of my head). Admittedly, bar passage is more about BarBri than law school, but that's more of an argument against the modern law school curriculum.

Lastly, unless you are simply trolling for laugh/trolls sake (like Waterman), then striking someone's earnest comments is extraordinarily rude and immature. I assume that your ghastly and rather poorly reasoned elitism is genuine, and thus cannot help but feel slighted by your strike. I don't know what causes people to be so crude on this board (at times), but it certainly is not helpful. Not every basketball player responds to Bobby Knight, and I'd guess that the vast majority of those looking for aid and information on TLS won't respond well to being belittled and subjected to caustic insinuations about the caliber of their intellect. The idea that someone who works hard for three years in law school and then passes the bar is somehow an insult to the profession of law reflects far more on the insulter than it does upon the JD-bearer.

Now, because of the opportunity cost that OP will lose, and the poor job prospects at Touro, I'm not terrifically keen on supporting his current path. That being said, if the GI bill covers it, and the OP is willing to work at a small firm, start a solo firm, do PI work, or return to the force if no job can be found, then it's a worthwhile endeavor. Life is short, and if you are comfortable with those areas of practice (and feel you have reached your maximum potential on the LSAT), go for it.

User avatar
MrSoOoFLy
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby MrSoOoFLy » Wed May 05, 2010 4:45 am

Kilpatrick wrote:I dismissed this as a flame at first, but now I don't know. Are you serious?

Just in case - don't go to this school. Even if it's free. You'll be throwing away three years of your life getting a completely worthless degree that might actually harm your career prospects in the future because nonlegal employers will think you are overqualified.

People aren't trashing these schools out of elitism. We're trying to warn people that come to this site looking for advice. It is a horrible decision to go to these places! The legal market is terrible right now. It's terrible for people at T-14s let alone whatever the hell Touro is. There are recent TTT grads who are literally applying for jobs at Chipotle right now. Don't go!


i LoL'd.

Also OP it's not impossible to get a well-paying respectable job out of a TTT but it is akin to the odds of winning the lottery. Going to a TTT/TTTT is like buying one lottery ticket, going to T2 or T1 is like buying 10,000 lottery tickets or 1,000,000 lottery tickets respectively. You just have a better shot of securing a better future at a better, or much better school.

I'm not an elitist tool and as a Long Islander I wish you the best at Touro and I hope you can be the exception to the rule.

Also, got a PBA card you're not using? :wink:

User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby General Tso » Wed May 05, 2010 4:48 am

GIJOE3066 wrote:aznflyingPanda, DerrickRose,

Thank you for the serious replies, I do not do this enough to understand the full meaning of flame, so its not that. IF the ROI is the sticking point, I can understand that to a degree. I have the new GI Bill though so it will pay basically the entire cost.


What about the taxpayers' ROI on your worthless degree? Understand that to a degree?

User avatar
flyingpanda
Posts: 824
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:32 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby flyingpanda » Wed May 05, 2010 5:05 am

GIJOE3066 wrote:aznflyingPanda, DerrickRose,

Thank you for the serious replies, I do not do this enough to understand the full meaning of flame, so its not that. IF the ROI is the sticking point, I can understand that to a degree. I have the new GI Bill though so it will pay basically the entire cost.


Even though GI Bill covers money, just realize that you might go to school for 3 years, study your butt off... and be less than satisfied with whatever legal employment you get. But full tuition ride is definitely the way to go if you actually attend a T3/T4 school.

User avatar
mpasi
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby mpasi » Wed May 05, 2010 5:11 am

These LSD people need to stop. I'm surprised he didn't talk about the "merits" of doc review.

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby 20160810 » Wed May 05, 2010 5:50 am

If this post is not a flame: OP should try and differentiate between elitist bullshit (HURR TOILET SCHOOLS-type comments), which should be ignored, and legitimate critiques of T3/4 law schools, of which there are many. It's simply unwise go to $100,000-200,000 in debt for a 50-60% chance at the Bar exam and an even worse chance at gainful employment. The numbers are bad. Really bad. Does it mean you'll be a bad lawyer? Of course not. But you're likely to be a poor one for a while unless you get a scholarship.

If this post is a flame: OP is a pot-smoking hippie draft-dodger.

User avatar
trialjunky
Posts: 928
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:41 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby trialjunky » Wed May 05, 2010 6:29 am

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:I have a better solution. People understand short sentences. They get bored reading long sentences. They sometimes even lose focus! Therefore, it is preferable to facilitate understanding. To this end, do not communicate in long, complex sentences. Do not write sentences containing unwieldy dependent clauses.

Make your point in as few sentences as possible. Make your sentences with as few words as possible. Hopefully this helps future understanding. Maybe one day it will be for the better. Maybe one day we will not be confused by each other.



You're my new favorite poster...<3

MrSoOoFLy wrote:
i LoL'd.

Also OP it's not impossible to get a well-paying respectable job out of a TTT but it is akin to the odds of winning the lottery. Going to a TTT/TTTT is like buying one lottery ticket, going to T2 or T1 is like buying 10,000 lottery tickets or 1,000,000 lottery tickets respectively. You just have a better shot of securing a better future at a better, or much better school.

I'm not an elitist tool and as a Long Islander I wish you the best at Touro and I hope you can be the exception to the rule.

Also, got a PBA card you're not using? :wink:


Sums it up nicely

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Borhas » Wed May 05, 2010 7:56 am

GIJOE3066 wrote:I had to join and post this because of all of the negative comments that I have read recently concerning 4T schools. I am married with 4 children, have served honorably as a member of the armed forces overseas (in Afghanistan and Iraq) have been a NYC Police Officer for 15 years, and am considering attending Touro. Does this mean that I will not be a good lawyer, because I did not go to a T14 school? The way that 3T & 4T schools have been described as toilets on this board is insulting not only to those that attend, but also to the entire profession, there is nothing wrong with showing a little bit of respect for other people and for yourself. Try not to disparage someone, or the school they choose to attend, it does not add to the prestige of your school, instead it takes away from any semblance of credibility you may have had based upon attending an exceptional school. I actually thought that I would be able to find reasonably intelligent advice or answers on this board, I imagine that is the original intent, unfortunately it is severely lacking, that is a shame. I hope that this is not indicative of the people that I will be dealing with in what I chose to make as my third career.


people here use the employment prospects to show that these schools are bad investments for at least a significant number of their students. Because people are also insecure and douchey they go one step further and use insults. Unfortunately the internet is not a bastion of civility, it's more or less a bunch of dumb kids rattling off snarky comments for their own entertainment.

GIJOE3066
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:32 am

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby GIJOE3066 » Wed May 05, 2010 11:36 am

First, quality of education =/= job prospects in academia. I don't understand how you are defining it, but I mean the quality of the instruction is still comparable at a T4 to a T14. The pace might be slower and quality of discussion a bit lower, but the curriculum, content, and textbooks are all going to be identical. Plus, outside of Yale and Harvard, academic job placement is pretty much a crapshoot, so unless you are willing to admit that USC grads and Tulsa grads are also all ill-educated at essentially the same level, your argument fails within its own false pretext.


84Sunbird2000,

Thank you for your well thought out response, and I appreciate you backing me up, I am ignoring those comments that doubt what I wrote or question it as a flame, especially the idiotic comments by some, I'm not trying to cause this mini controversy, just trying to get answers to serious questions regarding schools outside of the top schools.

irish017
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:19 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby irish017 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:14 pm

richardfitzwell wrote:
dvd wrote:
GIJOE3066 wrote:I had to join and post this because of all of the negative comments that I have read recently concerning 4T schools. I am married with 4 children, have served honorably as a member of the armed forces overseas (in Afghanistan and Iraq) have been a NYC Police Officer for 15 years, and am considering attending Touro. Does this mean that I will not be a good lawyer, because I did not go to a T14 school? The way that 3T & 4T schools have been described as toilets on this board is insulting not only to those that attend, but also to the entire profession, there is nothing wrong with showing a little bit of respect for other people and for yourself. Try not to disparage someone, or the school they choose to attend, it does not add to the prestige of your school, instead it takes away from any semblance of credibility you may have had based upon attending an exceptional school. I actually thought that I would be able to find reasonably intelligent advice or answers on this board, I imagine that is the original intent, unfortunately it is severely lacking, that is a shame. I hope that this is not indicative of the people that I will be dealing with in what I chose to make as my third career.


Hmmm, I'm not sure the timing of this works out. You said Iraq and Afghanistan, so it couldn't be Desert Storm, but I doubt the NYPD let you take time off to serve in the army. Also, what is an NYPD cop doing making a TLS account at three in the morning? If you are this bad at flaming, maybe Touro is the right choice?


This has to be the most retard comment i have ever read on here.

Apoligies in advance if you are mentally challenged.

Agreed.

ilovelawapps
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:49 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby ilovelawapps » Wed May 05, 2010 12:26 pm

I agree with what derrickrose said. It sucks to put it that way, but t3 and t4 law schools do lessen the value of the degree overall. If you look at med schools for example, getting into ANY med school is about as difficult as getting into a t14 for law. You have to have top grades in hard science, rock the mcat (30 is hardly competitive now, you're looking at 34+, which I imagine is roughly equivalent to scoring 169+ on the lsat), have solid extra curricular activities, physician shadowing, lab work etc. The pay off is that no matter where you go to med school (in the US) you're guaranteed a solid position.

As far as law school goes, all you need is a loan to be a lawyer. Of course lawyers don't have as much or as important an effect over other people's lives as doctors do, but they still play an important role in people's lives and society as a whole. It seems that if you want to be a lawyer then no problem you can be one. If you want to be a doctor you have to prove you deserve it. You can get more than half the lsat wrong and still get a JD. I know the correlation isn't perfect, but how would you feel if your doctor got half the med school entrance exam wrong?

User avatar
Mr. Matlock
Posts: 1360
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:36 pm

Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed May 05, 2010 12:30 pm

DerrickRose wrote:I will go a step further. We bash them with such virulence because they serve to de-value the JD's we are all seeking. There is a chronic oversupply of lawyers in this country and if the ABA did anything at all to try and reduce the supply to a level where the demand could catch up, T4 wouldn't exist.

The ripple effects from that would be enormous. If there were no NYLS, Touro, or Pace, all of a sudden you stand a better chance of getting a job from St. Johns or Seton Hall. This is turn would make things easier on the bottom parts of the class at T1's. And so on.

So we bash, and tell people not to go to these schools. Primarily its good for them, but its good for us too.

Being a TTT apologist myself, I must admit this is probably one of the better answers to this questions that I have read on TLS in the year and a half I've been here.

Length of post qualifier: I give you a pass on this one! :mrgreen:




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests